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help with RFI...being picked up by preamp
Old 23rd July 2006
  #1
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turk sanchez's Avatar
help with RFI...being picked up by preamp

Hey Guys,
I just bought a high end preamp...I would rather not say the name so I don't rub anybody the wrong way.

I am picking up a local radio station with it...if I move my mic cables around I can get it to go away (allmost) but you have to be in just the right spot. I also notice that if it is anywhere near the computer it picks up a lot of "hum".

I also have a Great River me-1nv and I have never had this problem with it at all. I did an a/b using all the same cables and only the "new" preamp is picking up the noise. I tried lifting the ground and it didn't change anything.

Any tips/advice would be a big help. Does this mean that my new preamp is crap? I am in an apartment by the way...but it's a nice brand new building. This is my personal project studio where I do some OD's and mix.

Thanks a lot...I could still return the unit if I have to...I just wanted to see if there is anything I can do to filter out the noise...or if a "good" preamp should be doing that allready.

PS...I went to a friends place with this preamp and it there was no RFI...

and last night (late) I was not getting it at all at my place...then...

Another starnge thing was this...I just had an sm7 going into the new pre then into my DAW...no RFI...then all I did was unplug the XLR (coming from the sm7) from the mic in on the new pre and put it over into the Great River and the RFI was back...I was still monitoring from the new pre (output was connected to my DAW and the track was armed) but the Great River was not even connected to the DAW (but the power was on)...the only cable touching my Great River was the mic in from the sm7. Wierd.

One last thing...I am just using inexspensive GE Surge Protected power strips...would getting a power conditioner make a difference?
Old 23rd July 2006
  #2
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synthoid's Avatar
 

This means next to nothing I bet, but the mic I have the most RFI trouble with by far is my SM7B (which I love by the way -- not knocking the mic at all). I pick up more crap with that thing. Very frustrating. I have thought of popping it open to be sure that the shielding is connected properly inside it. It's not noisy per se (internal noise), just susceptible to induced electromagnetic noise. Dunno why.

Is your new preamp an Avalon?

-synthoid
Old 23rd July 2006
  #3
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brianroth's Avatar
 

Chasing RFI problems is an incredible headache! In the original message it wasn't clear if the problem appears with only one given mic or with any/all mics in the collection.

Is the offending radio station AM or FM? Do you know how close you are to their transmitter? Just "out of curiosity" questions.

Many audio devices have a "pin 1" problem (referring to the grounding pin on the XLR connectors) which can cause problems in a high RF field.

Bri
Old 23rd July 2006
  #4
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turk sanchez's Avatar
Thanks fellas...
I was going to try it with a different mic...guess what? It still does it even when you unplug the mic and cable (xlr in)...just the XLR out from the unit to my DAW.

My great river does not pick up any RFI (or the ones in my 002r for that matter)...I am only having this issue with my new preamp.

It is not an Avalon.

It an FM station...102 "The River"...a Christian station.

Thanks guys but I still need more help...I like the unit (besides the noise)...

What can I do in regards to the "pin 1 problem" on the XLR? Sorry but I am not that technical...I have tried a couple different cables allready.
Old 23rd July 2006
  #5
AB3
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Is the preamp transformerless? Probably. I would contact the designer/manufacturer. There may be ferrite beads (I believe I have that correct) that can be used to stop the RF interference. There is a chance the designer/manufacturer can assist you.
Old 23rd July 2006
  #6
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turk sanchez's Avatar
I called the company and the tech said it was most likley something else in my studio picking up the RFI (cables etc...)

It has transformers...

I guess I should tell you guys what it is...I just don't want to come off as saying anything negative about the unit when it could just be a problem somewhere else...or something I am causing...or the fact that I am in an apartment and not using a power conditioner.

I am going to give it away without saying what it is so it won't come up in a search (so there is not anything negative tied to the brand etc).

It's red...has 2 channels with hi/lo shelf EQ and 2 limiters...and it is not "womanly"...solid state...and it cost around $1650...you guys should know what it is.

PS...moving the xlr cable (the out from the pre to my DAW) I can get it to be less intense (but it is still there)...bypassing the EQ changes things as well...it is much louder with the EQ in...even if it is flat. Also turning the mic pre gain all the way down causes it (the RFI) to get louder.
Old 23rd July 2006
  #7
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Mark Warren's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by waffle waitress

It an FM station...102 "The River"...a Christian station.
This makes sense now, this is not an audio problem but a spiritual one, Jesus is trying to send you a message!!

After reading all the fixes you've attempted it sounds like you've covered the bases, especially lifting the ground. One of the most telling things you mentioned is when you said that you switched the input over to the GR but were still monitoring out thru your new pre, and the problem still existed. This says that the problem is definitely in the preamp circuitry somewhere, but doesn't necessarily mean it's broken, just that it's how your preamp is interacting with your existing gear that's causing the problem.

One thing you should try is making sure every piece of gear connected anywhere in the signal chain including pre, DAW, computer, computer monitor, audio monitors, etc. are plugged into the SAME singular outlet. Do this with a power strip, or if you need more than one, plug the second power strip into first and so forth so that by the time you get to the wall there is only ONE plug going into the wall from the 1st power strip.

See if this fixes anything. If not there is the possibility that the preamp may be broken, or have a ground disconnect, or just not shielded enough electrically or mechanically to deal with the stength of RF you are getting in your apt. So you may think about sending it back and getting another one. If the problem still exists with the new one you get, then perhaps just return it and move on to something else. As you mentioned your Great River doesn't exhibit this characteristic, so even if the pre technically isn't 'broken' it just doesn't work for your setup/location.
Old 23rd July 2006
  #8
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Jim vanBergen's Avatar
 

I'm no EE but I have some real-world experience with this, so bear with me, I'm hoping it helps.

I have this same unit and don't have this problem, this manufacturer designs & builds solid stuff so I totally understand your concern. It's unlikely its a build mistake on this single unit, so let's consider your infrastructure.

Do you have a high end way to test your cables (Neutrik, Terrasonde Toolbox, etc) to insure not only proper wiring & grounding but good continuity and no loss? I'm assuming you tried different cables, but I'd also try:

Moving the unit OUT of the rack, away from other equipment. Make sure it does not touch any rack rails. See if problem goes away. RFI can be picked up by other equipment but I'm not sure why it would transfer unless if was by rack rails, a common ground, etc. I've had OTHER gear with Pin1 problems implement the issue by common ground or rack rail to other gear!

After moving the unit to a "clear" area, experiment with different AC circuits. You may find it increases or decreases depending on the breaker ir shared power circuit, the interference can be worse within a group of rack and its shared AC source (if you are using a power distro like an old Furman).

You can take the cover off this unit or even shine a flashlite in the slots in the case to look at the harnesses and interconnect. If it looks ok, it probably is, but I had an instance when this unit was living on my mobile truck where a sub-assembly came loose and re-seating was an instant fix. I doubt it would be the problem but its the first thing I look for anytime I pull this unit out of the rack.

I would take the output XLR cable, unsolder the pin 1 wire, snip it back and heatshrink over it. I'd also make sure pins 2 and 3 are very well insulated, and see if that improves or worsens the issue. An interesting way to see if the problem is really a pin 1 or case issue is take the shelll off the XLR, strip back the cable until you have six inches of ground wire, heatshrink it (leaving it free floating, disconnected from Pin 1 and especially the shell!) and try inserting the plastic female housing in the output, then touching the ground wire to the case or the back of pin 1 and see if the problem intensifies or goes away.Next, you can try putting an isolation transformer (such as the venerable and medicore Sescom IL-19, though I much prefer a Lundahl or better yet, Jensen transformer just after the output stage, either before or after the output cable, but I think there is a Jensen Xformer in this output path. Somtimes a 600 ohm balancing Xformer can solve this problem temporarily...though I don't think it s a good permanent fix.

I hope this thoughts help!
Old 23rd July 2006
  #9
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Geoff_T's Avatar
 

Hi

VERY strange that it's an FM station giving you this grief as 99% of the time it's an AM station that can be easily demodulated by poorly grounded (and, sometimes, assembled) modules.

The last thing you want to do is lift grounds as ground is generally the major way you can crack RF issues. I'd love to know how your system is working with a 100MHz region frequency modulated signal!

RF is a pain in the ass, literally, because it can enter an amplifier via the output cable, working back through the negative feedback, to appear as interference so, instead of looking at all the usual suspects, you need to look at everything in the audio path, including the least suspected items.

Here's some thoughts you could try...

1. How good is the ground to your equipment? Are any items using those spawn of Satan ground lifting adaptors (that cause more problems than they fix)?

2. You say that the GR can also pick up the interference which makes me wonder if the interference is from the mic, your cables, or items downwind of the pre. It doesn't have to be the pre though this is the usual suspect because of the high gain.

3. If you have the equipment in 19" racking, have you tried grounding the racking?

4. A last desperate bodge that can be tried is a balanced low pass filter that you could build into a small cable. Basically two RF chokes (inductors) in series with the balanced audio followed by two very small (picofarad region) capacitors from the outputs of the chokes to ground. This would block VHF signals before it reached your equipment but would not significantly affect signals in the audio region.

Old 23rd July 2006
  #10
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turk sanchez's Avatar
Hey guys...thanks for the help/ideas.

I tried removing the unit from the rack...with no mic, no cable in the input...just the xlr from the output going into my DAW the radio is still there.

Again...the Great River is NOT getting any RFI...just this pre. My 002r pres don't pick it up...nor did my distressor, rnla, etc...My rig is totaly silent otherwise...never had a problem.

Mark...I allready had all the power cables going into one outlet...daisy chained strips.

Thanks for the help guys...I think I may just try a different unit...this is such a pain in the ass and I can't get the FM noise to go away no matter what I try. When I plug in the GR I can dime it and it is so quiet...no hassle.
Old 23rd July 2006
  #11
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Geoff_T's Avatar
 

Hi

But did you look at the grounding? Daisy chaining a string of power strips off one another is not a good way to keep ground impedances down.

Don't forget what I said about interference getting in via the output cable... you proved that in the post above if you have no connections to the input.

We need much more info than you are giving... does the signal get louder and softer as you adjust the pre's output level or does it stay constant?

Does your wall socket even have a connection to ground? I've been to apartments where there's only line and neutral to the 3 pin outlet... no ground at all.

Old 23rd July 2006
  #12
Gear Nut
 
avedis's Avatar
 

It kinda sounds like the mic cable is not connected to Pin 1 ground.. perhaps Pin 1 is pinged off from the inside of the preamp?

Do this... connect a dynamic mic, and with a piece of wire attach the metal body of the mic to a known ground, like a shiny metal part of the preamp and see what happens to the noise.

Funny, I've just heard this kind of thing happen not too long ago with a project preamp someone wanted me to test.

Avedis
Old 23rd July 2006
  #13
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$ .02

personally the only problem i've had like this .... a mixer i was useing for my keyboards on live gigs would pick up a station (right across the street) when i played this particular club... and the only place it happened... the remedy ended up being i ran the power cord through a ferrite ring looping it a couple of times... never happened again.....
Old 23rd July 2006
  #14
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Geoff_T's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by avedis
It kinda sounds like the mic cable is not connected to Pin 1 ground.. perhaps Pin 1 is pinged off from the inside of the preamp?

Avedis
Hi

The problem with that is that he has already said ...

"I tried removing the unit from the rack...with no mic, no cable in the input...just the xlr from the output going into my DAW the radio is still there."

...so it may not be on the input side of the deal. Not that it isn't worth a try... there are so many mysteries with this RF breakthrough.

Can anyone ever recall having picked up 100MHz frequency modulated signals on their audio equipment? I wonder if it's an AM service that's acting as a repeater for that FM station.

Old 23rd July 2006
  #15
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turk sanchez's Avatar
Thank you guys SO MUCH for your time and advice...I took the unit back for a refund about an hour ago. If I was as smart and techy as you guys maybe I could have figured out a way to filter out the noise or what was causing the problem...maybe I am just lazy but now that that unit is gone the problem is gone. I got the thing more for the limiters anyway...I am going to just stick with the Great River and order an mc77 with the money so I have one NICE compressor...I am only doing overdubs here anyway.

Geoff T...the RFI was there no matter where the input gain was set...and when I would engage the EQ (even when set flat) the RFI would get a bit louder. I also tried many different cables and plugging in the power cable in a variety of places/ways. There is a ground (3 prong) on the outlets in my apartment...and I don't use those 3 prong to 2 prong ground lifter adapters. Also this is an FM station that I can tune in on the radio...not an AM station.

The only time I have ever had RFI was when using this pre...I used all the same cables when trying the Great River and NEVER had any RFI ever. I have been here a year and do overdubs here all the time. The only thing in the entire chain that was different was the preamp. Maybe the problem has been there the whole time but the GR is so good it filters it out somehow. I just don't have the patience to sort through this kind of techy stuff.

Thanks again for all the help guys...if I was as smart and techy as some of you maybe I would have figured it out but I am just going to try something else.
Old 24th July 2006
  #16
Gear Nut
 
avedis's Avatar
 

oops, sorry... I did not read the posts carefully.

I guess you solved the problem then, huh?

You probably had a bad unit to begin with. Solving RF problems is nearly impossible when you just have a bad unit.. and catching FM... it must've locked on a carrier frequency or something. The only time I've experience FM is with a guitar effects pedal with no guitar connected.

Avedis
Old 4 weeks ago
  #17
Gear Head
I have RFI in my new AMSNeve 1073Spx

I've tried nearly EVERYTHING.

The Furman PL8-CE does not solve the problem, nor does ferrite beads between the socket and furman and the furman > 1073spx

This week I am being sent a BAE 1073 and 5000 series Chandler, I'm just praying one is good.

2 options I've not tried yet:

Grounding the micpre, which I have no idea how to do

Buying RFI sheeting, to go a layer underneath and a layer on top of the 1-73spx.

I'm really getting stressed out about this now. When I turn the LEVEL pot on the 1073spx it tunes into 3 radio stations, Radio 1, smooth and Clyde 1

Even when the device is turned off on the GAIN section it still has RFI, and when no mic or guitar is plugged in it is still there.

Really thought the furman would help. Here some videos of my issues:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/epv272381...E-09fB3Za?dl=0

Anyone who finds the solution gets a bottle of whiskey sent to them (im in Scotland, we have the best)

Best step next from a professional who has dealt with or solved this before would be the best way to proceed, talked to a couple of electricians and its an enigma trying to hunt these problems down they say.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
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Lumin One's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capej View Post
I have RFI in my new AMSNeve 1073Spx

I've tried nearly EVERYTHING.

The Furman PL8-CE does not solve the problem, nor does ferrite beads between the socket and furman and the furman > 1073spx

This week I am being sent a BAE 1073 and 5000 series Chandler, I'm just praying one is good.

2 options I've not tried yet:

Grounding the micpre, which I have no idea how to do

Buying RFI sheeting, to go a layer underneath and a layer on top of the 1-73spx.

I'm really getting stressed out about this now. When I turn the LEVEL pot on the 1073spx it tunes into 3 radio stations, Radio 1, smooth and Clyde 1

Even when the device is turned off on the GAIN section it still has RFI, and when no mic or guitar is plugged in it is still there.

Really thought the furman would help. Here some videos of my issues:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/epv272381...E-09fB3Za?dl=0

Anyone who finds the solution gets a bottle of whiskey sent to them (im in Scotland, we have the best)

Best step next from a professional who has dealt with or solved this before would be the best way to proceed, talked to a couple of electricians and its an enigma trying to hunt these problems down they say.
Question
Is your studio a home studio? Do live in a building with multiple floors or do you have any dimmer lights in your studio?
I had the same problem anytime i used a particularly preamp with my fender rhodes. RFI would occur and increase anytime the cabling would pass over a certain part of the floor. I believe my neighbor below me had some appliance or lighting in their ceiling that would essentially cause everything in the preamp chain to act as one big antenna. The signal would decrease when nothing was plugged into the preamp.
Do you experience the RFI in other parts of your studio? Have you taken it home to test there?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumin One View Post
Question
Is your studio a home studio? Do live in a building with multiple floors or do you have any dimmer lights in your studio?
I had the same problem anytime i used a particularly preamp with my fender rhodes. RFI would occur and increase anytime the cabling would pass over a certain part of the floor. I believe my neighbor below me had some appliance or lighting in their ceiling that would essentially cause everything in the preamp chain to act as one big antenna. The signal would decrease when nothing was plugged into the preamp.
Do you experience the RFI in other parts of your studio? Have you taken it home to test there?
Home studio. Upstairs. No dimmer lights.
MY RFI does not decrease when guitar or mic are plugged in to it or arent. It's the exact same.

How did you tackle your problem and eliminate the RFI? Did you ground the amp? If so how do I go about doing this?

Theres RFI sheeting insulation also but £100 a sheet. And dont even know if it would be any good here. I need to isolate the problem and no if it is coming from my mains, but if it is? Surely the furman should eliminate RFI.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #20
Here for the gear
Helo, for RFI you live upstairs did ypu check with your cell phone , the all freq in your studio? Did you try to insulate your preamp in copper or aluminium sheet and groundid this sheet to your grounding cable, in this day if you living in upper building we get a lots of RFI in the air, so make a dummy box of insulation room with copper sheet or aluminium sheet and test with your cellphone wifi ON, see if another wifi freq near your room decrease in this dummy box, if its decrease so insulate all your room , floor and ceiling with this metal sheet connect each metal sheet with copper braided ground wire and with this copper ground wire connect to your earth cable , use aluminum foil papers for test the dummy box/room is cheaper, and for your ac line ypu can use transformer like topaz to separate noise from all users room in your building. Hope this help eliminate the rfi...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #21
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capej View Post
I have RFI in my new AMSNeve 1073Spx

I've tried nearly EVERYTHING.

The Furman PL8-CE does not solve the problem, nor does ferrite beads between the socket and furman and the furman > 1073spx

This week I am being sent a BAE 1073 and 5000 series Chandler, I'm just praying one is good.

2 options I've not tried yet:

Grounding the micpre, which I have no idea how to do

Buying RFI sheeting, to go a layer underneath and a layer on top of the 1-73spx.

I'm really getting stressed out about this now. When I turn the LEVEL pot on the 1073spx it tunes into 3 radio stations, Radio 1, smooth and Clyde 1

Even when the device is turned off on the GAIN section it still has RFI, and when no mic or guitar is plugged in it is still there.

Really thought the furman would help. Here some videos of my issues:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/epv272381...E-09fB3Za?dl=0

Anyone who finds the solution gets a bottle of whiskey sent to them (im in Scotland, we have the best)

Best step next from a professional who has dealt with or solved this before would be the best way to proceed, talked to a couple of electricians and its an enigma trying to hunt these problems down they say.
With your statement you get a high gain rfi from radio station so , metal sheet like steel with 0.2mm and use wiremesh in your windows with copper flexible groundwire connect to each other wiremesh and metal sheet will block this rfi, and sending to ground , but try first with dummy box ...to proove this
Old 4 weeks ago
  #22
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Lumin One's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capej View Post
Home studio. Upstairs. No dimmer lights.
MY RFI does not decrease when guitar or mic are plugged in to it or arent. It's the exact same.

How did you tackle your problem and eliminate the RFI? Did you ground the amp? If so how do I go about doing this?

Theres RFI sheeting insulation also but £100 a sheet. And dont even know if it would be any good here. I need to isolate the problem and no if it is coming from my mains, but if it is? Surely the furman should eliminate RFI.
You have to go through the entire chain. I found that I needed to build some cables that provided better shielding. Its been a few years but I believe I not only built cables to go from rhodes to preamp, but from preamp to interface (I may have had a 24 track multitrack recorder at that point).
I would highly suggest seeing if the preamp exhibits this behavior in another room/floor/friend's studio/etc
You need to go through each and every part of the signal chain, change out, and see if there is change. I would go so far as connecting neve line out (if it has one) directly to a monitor, bypassing interface and then add an element of signal chain until you isolate what is causing. It can be a number of things. It's frustrating, but you will need to do this to figure out what needs some attention.

Putting up RFI shielding all over your studio is not plausible. At least I wouldn't.
There is a section about chassis ground that may be applicable to your case here if you choose to do the RFI shielding inside the unit
https://www.rane.com/note151.html
Old 4 weeks ago
  #23
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T View Post
Hi

VERY strange that it's an FM station giving you this grief as 99% of the time it's an AM station that can be easily demodulated by poorly grounded (and, sometimes, assembled) modules.



Very strange indeed. How is the FM being demodulated. I think there's something else odd going on here...

-John
Old 3 weeks ago
  #24
Gear Head
Ok just demo'd a BAE 1073 (which is gold-plated all over and has large external psu supply) and absolutely no RFI in the signal path.

However, on A/Bing between the 1073spx, guitars sound better to me on the 1073spx, more depth and clarity with both EQs disgingaged and then with EQs on. This is only an hr or 2 in testing however, still to try vocals.

I'm still considering creating an Earth pit outside and grounding the chasis but may try some sheeting materials first, only thing is there is a vent on the top of the spx which covers half, so could only sheet half on top and full on bottom, would this even work like this?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #25
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Klaus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio View Post
And its NOT on cheap mics..U87 had the problem, grounding the chassis made it go away..A engineer in the same area told me they attached a alligator clip on a U87 and RF went away...
On all U87 versions mic head, chassis and housing are grounded via pin no. 7 of the head assembly. I.e. there is always positive ground potential, and no alligator clip-wire or other work-arounds should be needed.

So if you get RF in a high-end mic, it's almost always incorrect grounding/shielding schemes of the mic cable, or substandard cable material: use a high quality cable like Gotham's GAC3, terminate it properly with ground conductor AND shield AND ground lug of the connector all connected at pin no.1 on BOTH connectors, and RF will go away. If not, it's a defect in the mic, cable, or mic pre.

Last edited by Klaus; 3 weeks ago at 07:00 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #26
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Klaus's Avatar
 

What I described is the universally accepted cable termination practice to avoid RF in microphones, from Neumann on down, and for many decades. If the problem was solved with an alligator-clipped ground wire connected to the mic, that's proof alone that the mic cable/termination was flawed.

3 different U87 had RF? That indicates to me three different faulty ground/shield set-ups, in addition to incompetent technicians dealing with the issue.

Last edited by Klaus; 3 weeks ago at 07:51 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #27
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Klaus's Avatar
 

If you have the engineer call me, I can solve his RF problems over the phone, for good.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #28
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Klaus's Avatar
 

Sorry, I wanted to be helpful, and obviously have a different definition of a problem "fixed" than you:

In my book, fixing RFI in mics by adding a wire with alligator clips, or by grounding the U87 chassis that's already grounded in the factory, does not compute as a "fix".

Besides: why so grumpy?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio View Post
Your not paying attention, I said at several studios..Problem fixed...
At one of those same studios they also had RF in one of the power amps (QSC) Replaced it with a Bryston, CLEAN...
Woah dude, maybe consider chilling out a little bit. Klaus is offering real expert level help and you’re responding like a child.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio View Post
Help for a 20+ year old problem?
Read what I said, then what he said..
I read everything. No need to be rude though.

Never mind. I shouldn’t have engaged. You’re obviously right and superior.
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