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Guns n Roses song goes to court / Responsibility vs Free Speech Dynamic Microphones
Old 16th June 2006
  #1
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swankdoc's Avatar
 

Guns n Roses song goes to court / Responsibility vs Free Speech

http://news.findlaw.com/court_tv/s/2...006180855.html

It doesnt look like the song itself is being implicated, just used as evidence against the defendant. But of course there have been past cases charging songs for negligence.
Its a strange balance between saying what we want to in music and, being held responsible for it. Does that responsibility extend to the producer, mixer, engineer, label, marketer????

Has anybody shut down a session because the content of the song was so offensive, or potentially 'socailly hazardous' that you just couldnt go on participating?
Old 16th June 2006
  #2
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jdjustice's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by swankdoc
It doesnt look like the song itself is being implicated, just used as evidence against the defendant. But of course there have been past cases charging songs for negligence.
Its a strange balance between saying what we want to in music and, being held responsible for it. Does that responsibility extend to the producer, mixer, engineer, label, marketer????
This is ridiculous. That GNR song is obviously sarcastic, good old-fashioned black humour. It is no more dangerous (in terms of influence towards violent behaviour) than listening to any contemporary television show in prime time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swankdoc
Has anybody shut down a session because the content of the song was so offensive, or potentially 'socailly hazardous' that you just couldnt go on participating?
There is no way I would ask any of my clients to censor themselves. I don't care if it's Cop Killer part 2. Free speech is about the only freedom we still really have in this post 9-11 world. We need to protect it -- AND dismiss these frivolous lawsuits against ENTERTAINERS! They are entertainers and that's what they do for a living.


J.D.
Old 16th June 2006
  #3
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdjustice

There is no way I would ask any of my clients to censor themselves. I don't care if it's Cop Killer part 2. Free speech is about the only freedom we still really have in this post 9-11 world.


J.D.
I agree with you in principal. But what if some neo-**** fascist band came to you - would you record them out of the principals of free speech then?

I guess that scenario's going off topic from the original post though. I don't think that GnR crossed the line at all (or even came close to it), but I do think there needs to be a line as to the level of free speech that's acceptable. And certainly the level that I'd want to be involved in producing.

Rez
Old 16th June 2006
  #4
Gear Head
 

Songs like that should be censored! BANNED! No more!
Old 16th June 2006
  #5
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octatonic's Avatar
Um... "land of the free", please?
Free speech is important.
I don't like that song much, but I have to (to paraphrase Voltaire) defend their right to wirte and perform such things.
This is the thin end of the wedge- a very short step from banning songs to banning unpopular opinions, banning govt criticism etc.

The song does not say "Go and kill your wife".
It describes a ficticious event about the death of a woman in graphic detail.
If a person is going to murder someone he is willing to go against a deeply ingrained societal ethic.
Simply listening to a song isn't likely to affect a person to cast away this ethic.

I feel for the family- it is awful for them.
If Axl Rose is going to be held accountable for something then I think we need a new law against attention whoring in the media.
But then we'd have to lock almost everyone in Hollywood and New York up.
Hmmmm.....

JR
Old 16th June 2006
  #6
Gear Head
 

Bwaahahahaha! Just kidding.
If you think the song itself is guilty of "telling" the accused how to conduct himself, consider that he did not in fact bury his wife six feet in the ground in his backyard, first of all.

Furthermore, I see the song as the instigator of the concience of the accused, and therefore, the good guy, in a weird way. He erased the song, probably because it was making him feel guilty, not because he wanted to follow it.

OR, he wanted to get rid of "evidence", in which case, he still didn't, because the court still knows what he deleted, and also has his google records of gunshot wound survival course 101, and of course, the motive that screams $2 mil worth of guilt.

You know where you are? You're in the Jungle, baby!
Old 16th June 2006
  #7
Gear Head
 

Damn! You're reply was too fast, JR! LOL.
Old 16th June 2006
  #8
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AdAudioInc's Avatar
 

That's one of the only listenable songs that crap band ever put out.

Saying and doing are 2 very differant things. I think to myself - "I'd like to kill this client" - several times a week.
Old 16th June 2006
  #9
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BeerHunter's Avatar
You've got to be kidding me! Not this again (referring to Judas Priest et al). The guy had 1700 songs on his laptop and they discovered that "Used To Love Her" was the only song deleted. Maybe he just didn't like the song. I'm sure it had to be a Britney song that pushed him over the edge <sarc>.

I guess turning down a gig based on content should be left up to ones own morals. I wouldn't want somebody else to be telling me what I can and cannot record. Personally, I do not write or record anything that I can't play for my family however, I don't do this for a living and I'm sure that my standards would change if I had to feed my family from the proceeds.
Old 16th June 2006
  #10
Lives for gear
 

Songs don't kill people. People kill people.

Freedom is not lost in one fell swoop. It is chipped away until you are left with nothing. This is one of the first chips. It will only get worse.
Old 16th June 2006
  #11
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Great! Teach those Guns N' Roses that bad influences is a bad thing and doesn't work. People that are obsessed with killing should be professionally treated and not treat themselves by writing lyrics.
Old 16th June 2006
  #12
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meteor's Avatar
 

Why don't you just throw "I Shot the Sherriff" on the bonfire with all those dark-hearted bastards that wrote or performed it over all these bloody years. I mean... lot's of sherrifs have probably been shot since that song was written.




cheers,
Old 16th June 2006
  #13
Hey JR - If the song did say "Go and kill your wife" would it still be OK?

Just trying to understand your point of view.
Old 16th June 2006
  #14
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ripper's Avatar
 

As ever, Uncle Frank put it best:

"I wrote a song about dental floss but did anyone's teeth get cleaner?"

Frank Zappa



(Senate Hearing on "Porn Rock", 1985, in response to Tipper Gore's allegations that music incites people towards deviant behavior, or influences their behavior in general.)

20 years later, same stupid questions!
Old 16th June 2006
  #15
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ripper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by swankdoc
http://news.findlaw.com/court_tv/s/2...006180855.html



Has anybody shut down a session because the content of the song was so offensive, or potentially 'socailly hazardous' that you just couldnt go on participating?

Yes, as I recall I found a certain Chrsitian rock band simply too offensive to record.
Old 16th June 2006
  #16
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Bat Head Sound's Avatar
 

I would never cancel a session because of the content of the music. Who am I to impose my beliefs on someone else. So, if some Neo-****, facist musicians want to come to me record their latest song "African Genocide," fine. If someone who's Jewish wants to come record a song about killing Christians, fine. It's not my place to tell them that they are wrong in their beliefs and I won't work with them. However, just because I record it doesn't mean I agree with it. Does that make me a bad person? Personally, I don't think so, I would just ask them not to put my name on it. Now, playing with them is a different story. I would never play in a band that stood for something that I didn't agree with.
Old 16th June 2006
  #17
Bat Head Sound - I respect your position, but I also have a question.

I assume you wouldn't play in a band with Osama Bin Laden or maybe even George Bush based on what they stand for, but would you record for them?
Old 16th June 2006
  #18
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Bat Head Sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autocrat
Bat Head Sound - I respect your position, but I also have a question.

I assume you wouldn't play in a band with Osama Bin Laden or maybe even George Bush based on what they stand for, but would you record for them?
I would record George Bush, and if Osama Bin Laden wasn't wanted by the US government, and I thought he wouldn't hire someone to kill me, then sure, I would record him... but, that's a VERY extreme example.
Old 16th June 2006
  #19
Cool deal. . .now back to the gear.
Old 16th June 2006
  #20
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Bat Head Sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autocrat
Cool deal. . .now back to the gear.
It should also be noted that before undertaking in Osama Bin Laden's newest R&B album "Bin there, done that," it would be VERY clear that my name will NOT appear ANYWHERE on the album.


Disclaimer: I am NOT a part of any upcoming Osama Bin Laden release. Any release entitled "Bin there, done that" put out by Mr. Laden is purely coincidental.
Old 16th June 2006
  #21
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Acoustic Cloud's Avatar
 

If anyone remembers the lyrics in Paranoid, about 2 decades ago or more, supposedly made a kid kill himself.. "I tell you to enjoy life" was suspect as saying, "I tell you to end your life"...

Silly... the next line was something like "I wish I could, but its too late"
which one of the first possibilites works better with this line?

Plus, Ozzy has always sounded like he has a mouthfull of jacks anyway....

You have a choice of what music to listen to. You dont really have a choice over upbringing, family influences, etc... I dont listen to anything that has any foul crap in it, it just turns me off. Thats JUST me.

I wouldnt record anyone who has this lyric content either. Someone who would, though, may have better morals than myself, in another category..

(not sticking up for Ozzy, after the remasters of Randy, and the Iron Maiden concert here a while back, that whole camp is off the hook with greed anymore)

heh
Old 16th June 2006
  #22
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simonv's Avatar
 

who cares.. If you and I, and the mass media is talking about it, they're gonna sell records. End of story.

I don't even know what this whole thing is about. All I know is that a good old scandal is the best promotion ever. Old recipe.
Old 16th June 2006
  #23
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XSergeantD's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat Head Sound
Disclaimer: I am NOT a part of any upcoming Osama Bin Laden release. Any release entitled "Bin there, done that" put out by Mr. Laden is purely coincidental.
Then who actually is recording the Osama's family member? I recall hearing of one of his family members here in the states that was trying to make it into the music bizz around the 9-11 time. She did denounce all he stood for and all that, but I remember thinking w/out a name change, she ain't gonna sell albums.



As for the defense, won't it be great when they explain to the jury that the song was describing a dog, not a wife
Old 16th June 2006
  #24
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Bat Head Sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acoustic Cloud
If anyone remembers the lyrics in Paranoid, about 2 decades ago or more, supposedly made a kid kill himself.. "I tell you to enjoy life" was suspect as saying, "I tell you to end your life"...
I don't remember that one, but I do remember his "suicide solution" song when a couple of kids killed themselves and the attorney said that the lyrics to the song included "get the gun, get the gun, shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot," which was a REAL stretch.
Old 16th June 2006
  #25
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Bat Head Sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XSergeantD
Then who actually is recording the Osama's family member? I recall hearing of one of his family members here in the states that was trying to make it into the music bizz around the 9-11 time. She did denounce all he stood for and all that, but I remember thinking w/out a name change, she ain't gonna sell albums.
My God, I forgot about that. Did that album even come out? I also thought she was trying to become an actress.
Old 16th June 2006
  #26
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Kestral's Avatar
 

I was a huge GnR fan as a kid and read everything about the band. From what I remember, Izzy Straddlin' wrote the song, not Axl Rose, and when the interviewer asked him what inspired that song, he said it was about his dog that used to keep him up at night with her barking.
Old 16th June 2006
  #27
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iluvatar's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat Head Sound
Who am I to impose my beliefs on someone else.
Imposing your beliefs on someone is not the same as refusing to facilitate the propogation of those beliefs.

Quote:
There is no way I would ask any of my clients to censor themselves. I don't care if it's Cop Killer part 2. Free speech is about the only freedom we still really have in this post 9-11 world.
Just because an act is or should be legal doesn't mean that it should be committed. Free speech is great, but should we blindly encourage people to exercise that right regardless of the content and/or implications of that speech?

-Dan.
Old 16th June 2006
  #28
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My point is this, if nobody can stand up and take responsibility for what's good and right it's a matter of time before we'll have nuclear wars or other destructive things happening based on such a model. I think it's a lot about taking individual responsibility and SHOWING that exactly YOU care. Overall, caring is a very valuable thing, also in recording. The first step of caring is to act. The first step of not caring is to not act. There are no negative side effects with caring and act. There are people that claim that the Holocaust never happened, that's full blown stupidity. They killed 11 million people and it happened, how destructive is that... Had there been individual responsibility Hitler would have been taken care of immediately and it could have been avoided. The Bible says we should try to be perfect just like our father in heaven is perfect. Trying is really enough and it's an individual responsibility to try. So when it comes to destructive lyrics like killing, why should it be allowed?! Why is it necessary to use the gifts from God to write about the desire to kill or about someone that killed or wants to kill someone? For making money?! Come on, how cheap is that...!

I hope this is just the beginning of a new cleaning era. Clean the streets from drugs, clean the streets from dark bands and their destructive lyrics, clean the streets from violance, clean the media business from destructive content... Money is not everything you know...

My political standpoint is this, I don't like Osama Bin Laden and I don't like George W Bush, it's really that simple. Both are cowards trying to accomplish great things through violance. But not only through direct violance but also through low individual responsibility. What they should do, and I feel I have the right to say that if I want to, is to first visit a mental therapist, then visit a Christian Church and then start trying to take responsibility for eliminating destruction in the world. They should be good examples, not bad ones...
Old 16th June 2006
  #29
jhg
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Quote:
Then who actually is recording the Osama's family member? I recall hearing of one of his family members here in the states that was trying to make it into the music bizz around the 9-11 time. She did denounce all he stood for and all that, but I remember thinking w/out a name change, she ain't gonna sell albums.
She was going by a differrent last name, DuFour I think? The NY Post, one of the trashiest publiciations I know of, made a big deal of it a couple of years ago.
Old 16th June 2006
  #30
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Bat Head Sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvatar
Imposing your beliefs on someone is not the same as refusing to facilitate the propogation of those beliefs.
By refusing to do it, I would be saying that "I will only record you if I agree with what you say or think," which is indirectly imposing my beliefs on them.
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