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Swapping a JCM 800 2205 for a Dual Rec? Help guitarists!
Old 12th June 2006
  #1
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KrisNY's Avatar
 

Swapping a JCM 800 2205 for a Dual Rec? Help guitarists!

I've recently acquired a Marshall JCM 800 2205 and love the crunch I get out of it, but it's completely out of the "heavy" league. In a perfect situation, I'd love to get a Dual Rec in addition to the 800, but that's not financially possible at the moment. My question is to you guitarists - since the Dual Rec is a 3 channel head, will it produce a crunch anywhere close to what my 800 can do? Generally the stuff I hear coming out of a Dual Rec is super heavy, but the 3 channel thing has got me thinking...
Old 12th June 2006
  #2
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max cooper's Avatar
 

I used a JCM800 (a fifty watt with green tolex and plaid cloth, if that means anything) and a triple rec. for a while. The rec. definitely had "that sound" but it wasn't my cuppa.

For a while, the singer in my band used the rectifier and I used the Marshall. The Marshall had a lot more teeth, IMO. The scooped out rectifier sound can be helped by using EL34's and by switching to the solid state rectifier section. But it never made that classic "bark" that the marshall does.

I'd hang on to that marshall if you can.
Old 12th June 2006
  #3
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KrisNY's Avatar
 

Thanks for the input.

I feel the same way. The Marshall's really got a lot of character - it sings. The Mesa is really stock. I guess sometimes I go through a "I want modern hi-gain" phase.
Old 12th June 2006
  #4
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I agree with Max that the Marshall is the harder sound to replicate. I would keep the Marshall and get a V-Twin for the "bugs in a bottle" sound.
Old 12th June 2006
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by softwareguy
I agree with Max that the Marshall is the harder sound to replicate. I would keep the Marshall and get a V-Twin for the "bugs in a bottle" sound.
I'd never even heard of a V Twin till now. That's cute! Do you own one or have you used one? Do you know if it's best as a pedal or a preamp, and if it's most effective as a preamp, how does it compare to other guitar direct modelling like a V Amp or a Pod?

EDIT:
Orrrr do I get an attenuator like a Powerbrake or a Hot Plate, pop in some Groove Tubes, and really see what the power amp section can do? I'm liking this idea - might give me the gain I'm looking for.
Old 12th June 2006
  #6
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Whatever you do, don't sell that Marshall. Marshall's are timeless. Dual Rectifiers
have an expiration date on them. That date has definitely passed. I think those
Mesa Boogies are destined to become the Simmons Drum of guitar amps. Or maybe
the DX7 of amps. I had a Tremoverb for a while. After I got over being impressed
by how much low end it had, I started to notice that it was all preamp distortion,
no power tube break up. I've seen that refered to as "starved tube" design on
here. I decided that Mesa's are a lot like that seventie's kids toy oven with the
lightbulb in it; "The Easy Bake Oven". The power tubes are just there for
aesthetic purposes.
Old 12th June 2006
  #7
Gear Head
 

Definitely keep the Marshall JCM800. They're not as easy to come by as Mesa Dual Recs and in my experience are tonally more versatile.

As far as a heavy sound, the JCM800 appears to be Andy Sneaps main "go to" amp and if anyone knows heavy it would be him.

Check out his forum at www.andysneap.com for tips, mods, and signal chain suggestions to beef up an 800 for extra heaviness.
Old 12th June 2006
  #8
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softwareguy's Avatar
 

I'm a real hot-plate believer. I really love getting the power tubes cooking at whatever volume I have to be at. Some argue that the resulting sound is "compromised," but running my Marshall/AC50/Showman/V4 wide open is not an option for me in my home studio, and that's where I get most of my guitar sounds. Soooo . . . I find that getting a hot plate in there is better than trying to get tone out of the preamp tubes, whatever the compromise.

I would definitely try the Hot Plate first, and then try the V-Twin or whatever else you find to go after the Boogie sound. I have only used a friend's V-Twin, and that only for a few minutes, so I am no expert on them. I'm not a big fan of that sound, basically, so what seems like a passable version of it to me may well sound lilke poo to a hard-core Boogie head.

Congrats on your fine amp and have fun playing with it.
Old 12th June 2006
  #9
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the1Hub's Avatar
 

try a tube screamer/sparkle drive/your favorite similar pedal followed by a super over drive. its a pretty awsome sound.

keep the marshall. rectifiers do not have near the personality of the 800.
Old 13th June 2006
  #10
Gear Head
 

I got rid of a Road King because I like my 79 JMP so much I can turn up the midrange without it overpowering the highs and lows. I just hit the front end with an overdrive pedal and it sounds killer. I have been looking for this tone for years and finally found it. I was never a endorser of hitting the front end of amps with ovedrive, but I am now. There isn't a Mesa Boogie that I would trade my Marshall for.

If I were you I would consider getting a depth mod for your Marshall It will tighten up the low end and give you more bottom end depth. I have one on mine. By the way I had a 2210 the 100watt version and I wish I never got rid of I sounded great.

Stick with the Marshall
Old 13th June 2006
  #11
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robot gigante's Avatar
Sell the Marshall... to me!
Old 13th June 2006
  #12
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max cooper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robot gigante
Sell the Marshall... to me!
Haha. You beat me to it.

Nothing you can do to the Marshall is gonna make it do what a Recto does. If that's the sound you want, ok, but unless you're really really sure that's the only sound you're gonna want, don't sell your 800 to do it.
Old 13th June 2006
  #13
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Bat Head Sound's Avatar
 

The thing with the Mesa is you have to know how to use it. I've found that most people use it wrong. They put WAY to much distortion on it and suck out ALL the mids. If used correctly however, it can sound great, for what it is. It's not a JCM 800 though, nor is it supposed to be. Which would I rather have, neither. I'll stick to my mesa mark IV and mark IIB.... ah thank you very much.
Old 13th June 2006
  #14
Gear Head
 

Keep what you like best. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on keeping the 2205, as a collector item. Of the JCM 800 series, the keepers are 2204 or 2203; and Marshall has reissued them (at a premium price).The 2205 has the diode clipping circuit to give it more gain - the 2203,04 do not - and I think they sound ballsier, and take pedals even better.
Old 13th June 2006
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

Pedal infront of the Jcm 800's can usualy get a good high gain sound.. my guitarist uses a sans amp gt2 for that purpose.. something else some people love is to get a tc line driver infront of it..

but seriously.. high gain is over rated.. I get abit sick of guitarists making what they're playing near impossible to make out by covering it with rediculous amounts of distortion.. I always fine recording at lower gain than you expect gives you much better results in the end.. enough so that I've managed to convince a few guitarists of the same :p
Old 13th June 2006
  #16
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Blast9's Avatar
I second the pedal idea:

Get a TS style pedal and use as clean boost to hit the input.. It sounds ungodly. Put a hi-gain pedal in front of that, eg Zoom Hyper Lead or Tri-Metal.

OR --- Don't laugh! Indyguitarist.com has an amazing "Diezel" mod for the Boss Metal Zone. It totally changes the tone from horrible to absolutely amazing, and very amp-like (Diezel!) Put it this way: my friend is a total Retro-head, and he plugged into th emodded metal zone, and he was AWAY! HE said it was the most enjoyable thing he's done for ages! ( ) but true!
Old 13th June 2006
  #17
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heyman's Avatar
"Dual Rectifiers
have an expiration date on them."



Umm.... No .....

They are a flavor... Just like a marshall, vox, Fender, they have their place..

Sometimes a marshall isnt enough, sometimes a Rectifier isnt enough as well.

Marshalls have that nice top end, the Boogies can push more lows obviously..

Both sound great togther...
Old 13th June 2006
  #18
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Oroz's Avatar
 

I own a Marshall JCM Combo (2 x 12) and I when I want a heavier tone (more distortion) I just insert my TC Electronic 1140 Pre/EQ to give it more output. Love the sound.
Old 13th June 2006
  #19
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endure
Definitely keep the Marshall JCM800. They're not as easy to come by as Mesa Dual Recs and in my experience are tonally more versatile.

As far as a heavy sound, the JCM800 appears to be Andy Sneaps main "go to" amp and if anyone knows heavy it would be him.
The one channel ones SLAY the two channel ones. They changed the circuitry in the two channel ones as they went through the 80's to try to get it to sound right. The 1-channel stacked input models are as 'RIGHT' as it gets. Period.

The Mesa flavor is SO different -- it's like sports car vs. muscle car. You'll have to make a hard choice (or get a second job for a couple of months).
Old 13th June 2006
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heyman
"Dual Rectifiers
have an expiration date on them."



Umm.... No .....

They are a flavor... Just like a marshall, vox, Fender, they have their place..

Sometimes a marshall isnt enough, sometimes a Rectifier isnt enough as well.

Marshalls have that nice top end, the Boogies can push more lows obviously..

Both sound great togther...
i'll go out on a limb and say that a good fender amp turned up to about 5 (with bass and treble around 5 as well) sounded great 40 years ago and will sound great at least 20 years from now...and into the future. it is just the basic "clean" electric guitar sound. i love it.

the same cannot be said for the dual/triple rec. it is like a cartoon sound. that modern hard rock pre amp tube distortion sound with lots of lows. i do not think it will age well. but naturally i am biased as i never really liked it to begin with.

i am not saying it does not have "that sound" as heard on blah blah blah....it does have "that sound". i just think it gets to be a boring sound after a bit.

i would also say that people who want to get at least some of "that tone" try out the V-twin and plug it into your other amp on a cleanish setting. the distortion from mesas is mostly from pre amp tubes anyway...so you are not losing that much by using the pedal with the pre amp tubes saturating in it.
Old 13th June 2006
  #21
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sleepwalker's Avatar
 

Touche.

I've got a Tremoverb and between that amp and my AC-15, I've got *most* of the tones I hear in my head. Oh, and the Tremoverb is the versatile amp of the two.

By the way, believe it or not, you don't need to play these amps with a 7 string ibanez with the mids removed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by marchhare
Whatever you do, don't sell that Marshall. Marshall's are timeless. Dual Rectifiers
have an expiration date on them. That date has definitely passed. I think those
Mesa Boogies are destined to become the Simmons Drum of guitar amps. Or maybe
the DX7 of amps. I had a Tremoverb for a while. After I got over being impressed
by how much low end it had, I started to notice that it was all preamp distortion,
no power tube break up. I've seen that refered to as "starved tube" design on
here. I decided that Mesa's are a lot like that seventie's kids toy oven with the
lightbulb in it; "The Easy Bake Oven". The power tubes are just there for
aesthetic purposes.
Old 13th June 2006
  #22
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sleepwalker's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eligit
i would also say that people who want to get at least some of "that tone" try out the V-twin and plug it into your other amp on a cleanish setting. the distortion from mesas is mostly from pre amp tubes anyway...so you are not losing that much by using the pedal with the pre amp tubes saturating in it.
I'm also going to guess you've never done this. I sold my V-Twin pedal because it didn't do what I wanted it to do. It sounds nothing like the rectifier distortion.
Old 13th June 2006
  #23
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HudHudson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by marchhare
Whatever you do, don't sell that Marshall. Marshall's are timeless. Dual Rectifiers
have an expiration date on them. That date has definitely passed. I think those
Mesa Boogies are destined to become the Simmons Drum of guitar amps. Or maybe
the DX7 of amps. I had a Tremoverb for a while. After I got over being impressed
by how much low end it had, I started to notice that it was all preamp distortion,
no power tube break up. I've seen that refered to as "starved tube" design on
here. I decided that Mesa's are a lot like that seventie's kids toy oven with the
lightbulb in it; "The Easy Bake Oven". The power tubes are just there for
aesthetic purposes.
Same experience here. When my main amp was a Trem-O-Verb, I was far too flattered when other guitarists praised my tone for having such a righteous bottom, but it just didn't float my boat like a good Marshall would. So after five years in Dual Rectifier Land, I bought a '69 Plexi small box and matching basketweave cab and if I wanted a more modern sound I'd just find some over-the-top pedal to do the trick. Now my main rig is a '74 JMP 50 with the Wizard Plexi mod...sounds even nicer than the original Plexi did. I just love the "knock" it has, far more than I miss the low end plus sizzle of the Mesa.
Old 13th June 2006
  #24
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marchhare's Avatar
 

I didn't notice when I first read this thread that the Marshall was a channel
switching 800. Totally different animal than the single channel heads. I played
through one a couple months ago at a rehearsal studio. Really honky and
midrangey, no low end. Weird overdrive sound, like there was a Rat pedal
hardwired to the input jack hidden inside the head. The single channel 800's
are great though, especially with the right pedal in front to push them a little.
I used a Bogner modded Marshall once that was incredible. Really woody
and 3-dimensional with just the right amount of deep bass (sounds like I'm
reviewing wine). Extremely sensitive to the volume knob on the guitar. You could go from glassy, almost acoustic cleans, to Angus Young, all the way to singing lead just by turning the volume pot. Writing this is making me want one.
Old 13th June 2006
  #25
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KrisNY's Avatar
 

Hey you guys,

Thanks a ton for all the input!

I've been using a Sparkle Drive in front of it since the day I got it as an almost entirely clean boost (just a TINY bit of gain - still virtually at 7 o'clock) and it's definitely helped tremendously, but I'm still not getting the decay/sustain that i'm looking for, which I'm assuming is entirely because the master volume is on 1 for the volume I practice at, so the power amp's really doing nothing.

I've definitely decided to get an attenuator, most likely a THD Hot Plate, unless you guys can recommend something better. Oh... and I'm definitely not selling. Like I said, I guess I just go through these modern hi-gain phases and forget that it's important to play what I like, and the 800 is definitely what I like.

Thanks,
Kris
Old 13th June 2006
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepwalker
I'm also going to guess you've never done this. I sold my V-Twin pedal because it didn't do what I wanted it to do. It sounds nothing like the rectifier distortion.
well, i WAS exagerrating a touch. i had a V-twin which i also sold. the mesas i owned over the years were not triple rec types. those i just messed with, but never actually bought.

but the family of tones i got through the V-twin were not in another universe from the recs that i tried. not the same, but not unusably different ether...obviously depends on which amp is used and how the V-twin is configured.

if you need "that" sound 100%...i guess in the end you just need that amp. i have not used the trem o verb tho.
Old 13th June 2006
  #27
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heyman's Avatar
Speaking of Marshalls.. I really dug those 30th anniversary models..

It was like they had the JCM 800 sound, plus a great clean tone plus that Overdriven to hell sound if you wanted..
Old 13th June 2006
  #28
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sleepwalker's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eligit
well, i WAS exagerrating a touch. i had a V-twin which i also sold. the mesas i owned over the years were not triple rec types. those i just messed with, but never actually bought.

but the family of tones i got through the V-twin were not in another universe from the recs that i tried. not the same, but not unusably different ether...obviously depends on which amp is used and how the V-twin is configured.

if you need "that" sound 100%...i guess in the end you just need that amp. i have not used the trem o verb tho.
Yeah. I couldn't even get close with the V-twin. I will readily admit that my LP Custom sounds a lot like a $300 epiphone when the Mesa's really rocking. Definitely not the amp to show off the guitar's tone.
Old 14th June 2006
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepwalker
Yeah. I couldn't even get close with the V-twin. I will readily admit that my LP Custom sounds a lot like a $300 epiphone when the Mesa's really rocking. Definitely not the amp to show off the guitar's tone.
i often think of the full on mesa tone as more of a synth type tone than a stringed intrument for this reason
Old 14th June 2006
  #30
Gear Maniac
 
Chunky Karma's Avatar
 

2205

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbobo
Keep what you like best. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on keeping the 2205, as a collector item. Of the JCM 800 series, the keepers are 2204 or 2203; and Marshall has reissued them (at a premium price).The 2205 has the diode clipping circuit to give it more gain - the 2203,04 do not - and I think they sound ballsier, and take pedals even better.
The 2205 from what I understand is the only amplifier used on the Rage Against the Machine albums. Folks around here really seem to dig the sound. Just curious but does anyone happen to know if the clean channel bypasses the diode clipping circuit? Also, is there a way to mod either channel on the 2205 to be the same circuit as the 2204?
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