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Can We get This cleared up Pt Lt ADC
Old 8th June 2006
  #31
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcatdigi
This statement is wrong, this is what I (correctly) refuted.
But I don't believe it is wrong. According to Rail Jon Rogut, who I believe knows more about the inner workings of PT than either of us, most RTAS plugins create no latency.

To me that means that when a plugin DOES create latency, it is not compensated for, it's just that many plugins DON'T.

Here's his quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rail Jon Rogut from another post on PSW
Just for the record.. MOST RTAS plug-ins and the routing in LE has zero delay.. so unless you use the 5% of plug-ins which incur delay (like L2) then you don't have to manually compensate for anything.
Old 8th June 2006
  #32
Lives for gear
 
pingu's Avatar
 

Its ****ed up
Old 8th June 2006
  #33
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blackcatdigi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by StudioRhythm
Where are you getting your assumption that I don't know how to use it?
From your first post on this thread:
Quote:
PTLE does not compensate for any plugin delays
I take issue with you dispensing incorrect information on a public forum. IOW, PTLE does compensate for most delays. But not all. You are implying that it compensates for NONE. That is incorrect.

Quote:
I use PTLE almost every day, and I also know how to use the HD rigs at the studios I freelance at, thank you very much!
Cool. But, in all honesty, being able to drive a car doesn't indicate that you really intimately understand whats going on under the hood. (Sorry for the car analogy).

Quote:
Before PTLE came with TimeAdjuster and accurate delay reporting (I haven't found any misreported delays yet with the plugs I use in PT 7), I had short delay presets to compensate for the delays my plugins caused. I have also figured out all the latencies with my various converters, and I have another computer running Altiverb in a setup where I compensate for all the I/O and processing delay so I can get zero predelay when I want it. Trust me, I know a lot about latency and how to compensate for it!
That's awesome. Honestly, I don't trust any of that and figure it out the hard way, myself. I'm slightly OC that way.

Quote:
But I wouldn't complain if they gave LE the same functionality that HD has for plugin delays, that's for sure.
We both know when that will happen; (Just after the big freeze down below...)

Quote:
I just don't consider a solution that sometimes works with some plugins to be real delay compensation
Well, it's not "real delay compensation." Neither Digi nor I or anyone else ever said it was. You have to pay close attention to the wording and context. What we've all said is there is some (albeit "limited") compensation built in to the mixer.

Quote:
and I think Digidesign has an interest in spreading confusion on the subject, which always seems to happen when the topic comes up.
I don't really see what their interest would be in this.

Quote:
Like I said, I use PTLE daily and get great results with it, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to pretend it does everything exactly the way I'd want it to. This is one of the biggest areas for improvement, without a doubt.
Great for you. Nothing does everything exactly the way I want either, but you have to work with what you got. Sure, it could be improved upon. Couldn't anything? I can think of a lot of features that would improve my HD rig. But, I can't really fault Digi for not implementing everylittlething I want.
Old 8th June 2006
  #34
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blackcatdigi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by StudioRhythm
But I don't believe it is wrong. According to Rail Jon Rogut, who I believe knows more about the inner workings of PT than either of us, most RTAS plugins create no latency.

To me that means that when a plugin DOES create latency, it is not compensated for, it's just that many plugins DON'T.
I would agree that RJR knows more. However, I believe he was simply putting this in 'layman's terms' so-to-speak, in the interest of clarity.

If you notice his wording he actually said: MOST RTAS plug-ins and the routing in LE has zero delay...

In LE inferring that they induce no latency inside LE's mix engine. Not that they absolutely have none, but that they induce none "in LE"... Does that make sense?

All plug ins have some delay. How could they not?
Old 8th June 2006
  #35
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blackcatdigi's Avatar
I shot Rail an e-mail.

Hopefully he'll shed some light for us...
Old 8th June 2006
  #36
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcatdigi
I take issue with you dispensing incorrect information on a public forum. IOW, PTLE does compensate for most delays. But not all. You are implying that it compensates for NONE. That is incorrect.
I'm just yet to be convinced of this. It'd be great if someone who really knows what's going on under the hood would chime in.


Quote:
That's awesome. Honestly, I don't trust any of that and figure it out the hard way, myself. I'm slightly OC that way.
I'm not sure what you mean -- I know that all the reported figures are correct because I have tested them myself and verified them.

Quote:
I don't really see what their interest would be in this.
Because otherwise, every time the subject comes up, the only things people would have to say would be "that sucks" and "why doesn't it have it" and things like that. This way the topic can turn into endless arguments over technical details , hopefully leaving the real issue about whether or not it compensates for all plugin delays aside.

Quote:
Great for you. Nothing does everything exactly the way I want either, but you have to work with what you got. Sure, it could be improved upon. Couldn't anything? I can think of a lot of features that would improve my HD rig. But, I can't really fault Digi for not implementing everylittlething I want.
I don't have a major problem with it the way it is, but the original poster was asking whether or not it had real delay compensation, which it does not.
Old 8th June 2006
  #37
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcatdigi
I would agree that RJR knows more. However, I believe he was simply putting this in 'layman's terms' so-to-speak, in the interest of clarity.

If you notice his wording he actually said: MOST RTAS plug-ins and the routing in LE has zero delay...

In LE inferring that they induce no latency inside LE's mix engine. Not that they absolutely have none, but that they induce none "in LE"... Does that make sense?

All plug ins have some delay. How could they not?
Why must they? if you know, explain it to me, seriously. Intuition doesn't get you very far with digital audio, so if you're just thinking they must, I wouldn't put much trust in that.

Either way it seems that to the end user, it doesn't make a difference whether it only corrects some delays, or whether only some plugins actually create delays.
Old 8th June 2006
  #38
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcatdigi
I shot Rail an e-mail.

Hopefully he'll shed some light for us...
Thanks, it would be good to get some clarification on the inner workings.
Old 8th June 2006
  #39
Here for the gear
 
blueboy's Avatar
 

After much searching on this topic, this is all the info I could find. My last post at the end of this thread is still the best explanation I can come up with. I think Digi has an interest in keeping this topic confusing...until they finally implement "full" delay compensation (if ever) in PTLE.

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind...129/0/0/11771/

JL
Old 9th June 2006
  #40
Gear Nut
 

It was my understanding that LE "compensates" for plugin-induced delay up to the buffer size. Is this not true?
Old 9th June 2006
  #41
Gear Nut
 
Matej's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian
It was my understanding that LE "compensates" for plugin-induced delay up to the buffer size. Is this not true?
That was my original argument, as it's what Digi will tell you if you email them.
If you change buffer size and check the plugin delay it will vary based on the size of the buffer. Simple math, adding and substracting.

I'd love to hear Rail's thought on the subject.
Old 9th June 2006
  #42
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian
It was my understanding that LE "compensates" for plugin-induced delay up to the buffer size. Is this not true?
ummm....
Old 9th June 2006
  #43
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matej
That was my original argument, as it's what Digi will tell you if you email them.
If you change buffer size and check the plugin delay it will vary based on the size of the buffer. Simple math, adding and substracting.

I'd love to hear Rail's thought on the subject.
I've never seen plugin delays changing myself. What plugins are you seeing this with?
Old 9th June 2006
  #44
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian
It was my understanding that LE "compensates" for plugin-induced delay up to the buffer size. Is this not true?
do the test your self it is the only way you will know for your self
Old 9th June 2006
  #45
Gear Nut
 
Matej's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by StudioRhythm
I've never seen plugin delays changing myself. What plugins are you seeing this with?

OK, now it's time you do some testing. heh

Put a plugin on a track (try one of those with higher latency..RenComp maybe). Change the buffer to the lowest setting. Check the delay caused by the plugin. There's a number, right? Now go change buffer to something else. Check the delay again. See the difference? Thank you, this is what I base my posts on.

There's no such thing as a free meal, and there's no such thing as no latency inducing plugin. PT LE compensates for the latency smaller than the buffer size. If the latency is larger than buffer, you see the delay that is basicly reduced by the size of the buffer.
Old 9th June 2006
  #46
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matej
OK, now it's time you do some testing. heh

Put a plugin on a track (try one of those with higher latency..RenComp maybe). Change the buffer to the lowest setting. Check the delay caused by the plugin. There's a number, right? Now go change buffer to something else. Check the delay again. See the difference? Thank you, this is what I base my posts on.

There's no such thing as a free meal, and there's no such thing as no latency inducing plugin. PT LE compensates for the latency smaller than the buffer size. If the latency is larger than buffer, you see the delay that is basicly reduced by the size of the buffer.
I knew I'd catch some **** for asking....heh

Seriously, though, it doesn't change with any of the plugins I currently use. Oxford Dynamics and Transient Modulator both report 20 samples delay whatever my buffer size, and I need to set a TimeAdjuster to 20 samples to create a null.

Same with Altiverb (480 samples regardless of buffer size).

Smack! reports 1 sample regardless of buffer size (can't set TA to 1 sample....)

Digi Exp/Gate 3 reports and nulls with 96 samples (guess I was thinking 96kHz when I said 192).

Maxim is 1024 samples, reported and measured, again regardless of buffer size.

I didn't update my Waves bundle for PT 7 since I never use it now, so I can't measure RComp.

So tell me what plugins you're seeing this with? Are you sure you're not confusing it with sample rate? Latencies generally double with the double rates.
Old 9th June 2006
  #47
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

I remember playing with this theory a while go with GURU and a few other plugs. I seem to remember that on the track with GURU inserted, Protools indicated the it created 256 of delay(bottom of fader). But I could not hear it at all.

now as far as using outboard when mixing.........yes I can here the delay loud and clear.
Old 9th June 2006
  #48
Daniel001
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by pingu
Will there be latency with Duende?
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcatdigi
Yes.

Q: Will it be compensated?

A: I have no idea.

Quote from SSL:
With PT it will not be compensated.

Quote from me: I cannot work without Automatic Delay Compensation, can you?
Old 9th June 2006
  #49
Deleted User
Guest
Alright. I am going to chime in here.

Lets start with Pro Tools LE signal flow. The audio files get pulled from the hard drive and get loaded into DAE (Digidesign Audio Engine), which is the playback engine in PTLE. PTLE is a host based system meaning all of the processing for playback/recording of tracks, plugins, routing, automation, etc, gets handled by the host CPU and its corresponding RAM. DAE is basically a huge pool of RAM dedicated to running PTLE in this case. Since all of the processing is happening at the same time, meaning DAE is processing the audio and the plugins in the sam pool of RAM, there is no latency induced by RTAS plugins. The only plugins that introduce any form of latency in PTLE are those that have some form of a look ahead buffer, mostly plugs like Smack (1 sample), Maxim (1028 samples), etc. These are compressors that "look ahead" before they compress. Once the audio is processed, it continues signal flow in the mixer based upon the users routing (pre/post fader sends, aux tracks, etc). There is no auto delay compensation in PTLE. If you have plugs that have delay on them, you must either use the Time Adjuster plugin or nudge your region to compensate.

PTHD is different. Audio comes from the hard drive, gets loaded into DAE for a brief period and then is sent to the TDM or HD cards for processing. This all happens via the TDM Bus. The reason there is delay with EVERY plugin on a TDM system (minimum of 4 samples delay) is because the audio has to jump off the TDM bus, get processed by one of the processing chips on a TDM card, and then jump back on the buss to be sent to the converters for playback. The delay here happens when the plugin occupies a TDM Time Slot to jump off that TDM bus, get processed, then jump back on. This is no big deal in TDM/HD systems because they DO have automatic delay compensation.

So in summary.
RTAS plugins in PTLE have no latency (unless they have a look ahead buffer) because the audio is processed on the host computer at the same time the plugin is processed. RTAS plugins on HD and TDM systems have no latency for the same issue. However, TDM plugins in a TDM system have delay because they use a TDM Time Slot to jump off the TDM bus, get processed on a chip separate from the computers CPU, and then jump back on the bus for output. This is also the reason you cannot insert an RTAS plugin after a TDM plugin in a TDM system. In signal flow, RTAS comes way before TDM and there is no buss from the TDM cards back into the computers CPU.

Whoa (wipes sweat from forehead)! I hope that makes sense. It is all about signal flow. You have to know the ins and outs of your system.

Lets stop attacking each other and just talk about facts. If you dont know what you are talking about, dont talk. Just ask questions.
Old 9th June 2006
  #50
Gear Nut
 

Hey wait a minute, this thread wasn't supposed to contain any actual information or knowledge...!

Seriously, thanks for the summary.
Old 24th June 2006
  #51
Gear Maniac
 

i was using waves and oxford plug-ins and did experience lantecy with LE. we can all agree that PT LE does have some sort of limited delay comp but not FULL ADC like nuendo, samo, cubase, logic, etc.
Old 24th June 2006
  #52
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TREMORS's Avatar
Dumb question, but how to I find the amount of delay in LE?
I swear I alt+clicked ( havent tried in a bit) or whatever I was supposed to do, and it didnt change anything in the fader readout?

I'm an idiot, I know
Old 24th June 2006
  #53
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pingu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TREMORS
Dumb question, but how to I find the amount of delay in LE?
I swear I alt+clicked ( havent tried in a bit) or whatever I was supposed to do, and it didnt change anything in the fader readout?

I'm an idiot, I know

Try it again and youl see it.


Put r-comp on there and feel the anger.
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