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Can you Produce a "Hit Song" ?
Old 1st August 2007
  #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisvegas View Post
So.... if it's that easy today, and modern music sucks, how come you havent had any hits lately?
Hmmm...where do I start ?

I think JP11 put it perfectly and I can't add much more to that except to say that ;

1) I never said it was easy at anytime in the entire thread (go and check).

2) What I prefer and like to listen to has mostly nothing to do with what I have to do to make a living. There is music that I write for my enjoyment and then there's music I make and produce to sell - two different things -...
Old 1st August 2007
  #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle duncan View Post
And I can't say I agree with you either. Look! We agree on something.

A magic song: 'Don't Know Why I Didn't Come' Norah Jones. I think it would have been almost impossible to kill that song with bad production, and I don't think production made it a hit.
Early Cheryl Crow - sloppy production, magic songs
Snow Patrol - the song about how he's lying on his bed
Sixpence the richer - 'Kiss Me'
The Way (the road that they walk on is paved in gold)
Sk8ter Boy (did I spell it right?)
These are all songs that made it, regardless of production tricks. These are the songs I'm talking about. (Sorry for being so out of date, but Brittany Spears pop music makes me want to puke, and I try not to listen to it. Even the latest Avril Lavigne makes me want to puke.)
I'll be the first to agree that production is on par with songwriting and artist performance and promotion in getting a hit, but it's a combination of all these elements coming together. Producing forgettable shlock, while profitable, does not, in my mind, equal producing hit songs, even though they may show up on the charts for a short while.
I produce forgettable shlock on a local scale, and I enjoy the challenge of making forgettable shlock memorable, but I recognize the limitations of the songs I have to work with, and I don't pretend to transcend them with my production skills. It would be like putting cardboard wings on a car - it may look like a plane, but it's never gonna fly.

Unfortunately I have to disagree with you again...

If sk8ter boy is a magical song then I better just sell all my gear and quit the business tonight...you can't be serious !

Here I am bringing songs like Something, Bohemian Rhapsody etc. and you hit me with sk8ter boy...I will probably have a nightmare tonight over that statement.

My standards for what qualifies a song as magical are much, much higher. If anybody remembers any of those examples you gave 20 years from now then I'll become a Tibetan Monk...

No disrespect but, I sincerely hope you were joking and that you're able to truly come up with better examples of songs that are "magical"...

And...

Don't think for a second that production had nothing to do with the success of those songs...
Old 1st August 2007
  #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamsongs View Post
Here I am bringing songs like Something, Bohemian Rhapsody etc. and you hit me with sk8ter boy...I will probably have a nightmare tonight over that statement.
Wasn't Sk8ter boy a big hit for Avril? Isn't this what we're talking about? Hit songs? My memory has more holes in it than swiss cheese, but I remember that song, and I remember where I was the first time I heard it.
I think we have different definitions of 'magic', plus, our definition of 'magic' is irrelevent, because it's up to the public.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go to itunes and download 'Sk8ter Boy' and 'Kiss Me.'
Bohemian Rhapsody? Now there's a song that'll give a guy nightmares. I actually had to record a cover band version of that song in my studio, and then take the track down to a high school and run it through the monitors to record a choir singing it. I think that one single event was the turning point in my career, and ever since then, it's been all downhill.
Old 1st August 2007
  #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quietdrive View Post
I dont like the assumptions you're making. Who knows what will happen with Daughtry? Maybe he will still be around 15 years from now, and go on to score numerous #1 hits. When you're talking about Queen or The Beatles, you're talking about acts from the past. It's easy to compare Daughtry, and artist who just released one album and has been around for (what) 2 years (?), to acts that had a decade and numerous albums to establish themselves.
True, that is kind of unfair. I mean, I'm not knocking Daughtry or Nickelback or anyone else from now, they're doing their thing and getting paid. I'm just trying to be sort of real about it. The Beatles were around for about 6 years in America, so let's check back on Daughtry in 2012 and see if he changed the face of music or has at least written a huge catalog of classic songs. It took Queen 2 years to get from their debut to Bohemian Rhapsody, so Daughtry has his work cut out for himself. (We all agree that as far as pop rock music goes, Bohemian Rhapsody is pretty frickin' awesome, right? Queen didn't just phone that in.)

Quote:
Nobody knows what's gonna happen in the future or what current acts will go on to accomplish in their careers. The people always dictated what's successful. That was the case in the 60s, 80s and is still today. Some of our current artists WILL become icons, just like The Beatles or Queen.
True again, we don't know. The better or worse thing is really up for debate, and we love to debate it, and it's subjective, too.....

But you know, I don't know what the big deal is sometimes about saying something from the past is, or may possibly be, seems very much like it could be....better!

No one has a cow when someone says Neve preamps are better or have a certain something or a U47 or a bottle of wine or maybe a certain make of car or Shakespeare or Van Gogh or The Bible. All kinds of old crap is revered, and probably for good reason.

If you said Beethoven or one of those old guys wrote better classical music than whoever is writing it now, would anyone insist that now is as good just because it's now? I suppose they might, but...(Don't even know who's doing that stuff other than Sir Paul, that's how much of an impact classical music has now, and as much as I admire Sir Paul, I don't think Beethoven or Mozart or any of them have anything to worry about, but that didn't stop Sir Paul from winning a best classical Brit award.)

Quote:
Modern music isnt worse or better than it was 4 decades ago. It's just different. A different sound and a different approach to how you produce/record it.
To me, it's odd how little much of pop music has changed as far as the general approach goes. But I do think there are less very well written songs now, chords and original melodies. Plenty of fun stuff, trite, catchy, familiar, lots of slamming productions for sure. But most of it seems a bit like a chinese knockoff...
Old 1st August 2007
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle duncan View Post
Wasn't Sk8ter boy a big hit for Avril? Isn't this what we're talking about? Hit songs?
I think Avril and her hits are exactly what we're talking about. She could be the poster child for hugely successful rock n roll mediocrity. They should have an Avril Hall of Mediocrity in the Rock N Roll Hall Of Fame.

Quote:
Bohemian Rhapsody? Now there's a song that'll give a guy nightmares. I actually had to record a cover band version of that song in my studio, and then take the track down to a high school and run it through the monitors to record a choir singing it. I think that one single event was the turning point in my career, and ever since then, it's been all downhill.
Hah, that's funny. I seem to recall reading that Queen (might have been Zeppelin, but I think it was Queen) intentionally made their songs difficult to cover.
Old 1st August 2007
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
I think Avril and her hits are exactly what we're talking about. She could be the poster child for hugely successful rock n roll mediocrity. They should have an Avril Hall of Mediocrity in the Rock N Roll Hall Of Fame.
But that's what we're talking about, the people WANT that type of music. THEY made Skater Boy a hit song, NOT Avril or her producers. A certain group of people chose Avril to be a superstar, and not some other girl in the pop/rock genre, or some Alternative rock band that is signed to SonyBMGUniversalEMIWarner. Therefore, if you want to blame anyone, you gotta blame the people who bought her stuff, and who are responsible for today's music climate.

Sure, what becomes a hit has a lot to do with what major labels sign and decide to promote. Without a major, Avril would've never sold over 25 million records. But the same applies to The Bealtes or Queen.
Old 1st August 2007
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Produceher View Post
Then name some. Because I can't think of any.
That's because you're trying to predict the future, and probably just want to see what you wanna see. For all I know, Britney Spears or Christina Aguilera may become Icons. Or 50 Cent. Or Eminem.

Do I like any of these acts, not really. Does that mean that their music wont still be listened to in 20 years? No. Again, the people decide what's successful and becomes "timeless music". If a lot of people out there buy 50 Cent records, who am I to say that it's crap?
Old 1st August 2007
  #278
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1. Chart music has always been largely crap (insert your own substitute for 'crap', it really makes no difference), regardless the era.
Rose tinted spectacles are nice (and become habitual the longer success eludes you), but they won't make you any money

2. A good song is not necessarily the same thing as a hit song, never has been and never will be

3. 99.9% of folks fail in this business, it's debatable if even the opinion of those that do make it is worth listening to - as Jules pointed out earlier, anything and everything goes wrong, the chances of anything going right regardless the great product, good intentions and professional expertise are so slim it's a wonder anyone actually tries

4. If you are in the business of writing songs for others, why are you complaining? Is it because you can't sell anything i.e. maybe you haven't the first clue as to what is required or is it because you are really a frustrated artist? You are in the business of selling - why the quality issue?

5. If you want commercial success then you had better learn that it's a very (almost impossible) difficult thing to achieve and you will have to live with using every trick in the book to your advantage - if you don't fancy that, then steer clear

6. Every tradesman moans about how the end product or the fruits of their labours are misused - it's just ignorance, some learn, most don't

I love this business heh
Old 1st August 2007
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
I think Avril and her hits are exactly what we're talking about. She could be the poster child for hugely successful rock n roll mediocrity. They should have an Avril Hall of Mediocrity in the Rock N Roll Hall Of Fame.
I think her debut album includes good songs. Sk8ter boy is my least favorite song on the album though... If you can listen to it without prejudice and preconception, you should find 'I'm with you' is at least a good song.
Old 1st August 2007
  #280
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I suppose I have a hard time when people say that production has very little to do with the likeness or acceptability from the public of the song.

I have had songs in the past where I was unsure about the production, arrangements, tempo and instrument choice etc. so I made 3 different versions of demos for these songs. I presented these 3 versions to a few Publishers and artists I worked with.

In each case, almost all of them gravitated to the same version of the demo which was named "version C". Even friends and family liked that version of the song as well.

I seldom have the time to do 3 full-blown demos of the same song. It seems that in this case, I got it right on one of those versions. I liked the 3 versions equally but I was obviously biased.

After careful consideration, I found that it was no coincidence that most people liked "version C" of this song. I was just lucky that I had 3 chances to get it right.

So what am I saying ? A professional producer knows what direction to take in most of the songs they work with whereas most people are throwing darts at a board. The hit making producers know what it takes to make a hit. They may or may not succeed everytime because there are too many factors involved but their success rate is pretty high. OTOH, the rest of us are just hoping we get it right.

So... what if I would've presented "version B" of my demo which was the least liked ? It would've probably gotten turned down. Then I would've been left wondering what the hell went wrong ?

So my conclusion at the time was that production had something to do with how the song was received. "If you produce it they will come"...

From that point on I try my best to get it right. I try to do what serves the song best without any prejudices or my own taste getting in the way. Like one Publisher said to me "Taste is a luxury we can't afford in this business"...
Old 1st August 2007
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quietdrive View Post
But that's what we're talking about, the people WANT that type of music. THEY made Skater Boy a hit song, NOT Avril or her producers. A certain group of people chose Avril to be a superstar, and not some other girl in the pop/rock genre, or some Alternative rock band that is signed to SonyBMGUniversalEMIWarner. Therefore, if you want to blame anyone, you gotta blame the people who bought her stuff, and who are responsible for today's music climate.

Sure, what becomes a hit has a lot to do with what major labels sign and decide to promote. Without a major, Avril would've never sold over 25 million records. But the same applies to The Bealtes or Queen.
Well, I don't really want to blame anyone. I already posted my feelings on the audience....

Sometimes we start going around in circles on these threads, and I don't even know what we're trying to prove...

My general feeling though, is that it's up to the artist to change the climate and to elevate the music, or change the direction. The record companies want money, and the audience first and foremost want to be entertained, but I think they appreciate good stuff when it comes along....in the meantime, they'll generally take good enough stuff that sounds professional and gets 'em thru the day (hence this thread).

Yes, you need to be commercially minded, yes you need massive marketing, yes you need to entertain the people, personality, talent, image, great production, the whole 9....but the big difference to me between people like Avril and Daughtry versus people like The Beatles and Queen is in their minds. I mean, it's ridiculous to even compare them, I just don't believe they will ever be on the same level (we'll see).

So then, I guess, the question becomes, where or who are the forward thinking talented artists who are on that higher level, but still willing to be hard working commercial monkeys making buckets for the record cos? Why aren't there ground breaking commercial artists now writing on the musical level of a Lennon/McCartney or a Freddie Mercury or a Brian Wilson, hugely successful, and raising everyone's game at the same time? And that's a whole 'nuther 10 pager.

That's it for my 2 bucks!
Old 1st August 2007
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YUGA View Post
If you can listen to it without prejudice and preconception, you should find 'I'm with you' is at least a good song.
Yep, it's nice enough. Sounds like The Goo Goo Dolls.
Old 1st August 2007
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cramseur View Post
Just remember "The Macarena", "who let the dogs out", "I'm too sexy" and the countless other songs that were catchy but otherwise mediocre. The production...nothing special. but the marketing, ahh... those songs were everywhere! Coal into diamonds, indeed.
Those are all great pop songs. Catchy is everything. What do you want, Beethoven?

-R
Old 1st August 2007
  #284
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Quote:
Can you Produce a "Hit Song" ?
Well i can't but i know it sure can be done. I heard Relax by Frankie goes to hollywood before Trevor Horn got his hands on it and i'm 100% convinced it would never been a hit without the aid of mr Horn. It was absolutley horrible.
Old 2nd August 2007
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiter8 View Post
Well i can't but i know it sure can be done. I heard Relax by Frankie goes to hollywood before Trevor Horn got his hands on it and i'm 100% convinced it would never been a hit without the aid of mr Horn. It was absolutley horrible.
I am sure there are hundreds of examples like this...

I have also heard demos from well known artits from my Publishers before and they're night and day...

The trick is to make the right decisions every step of the way...then you might have a hit...
Old 5th August 2007
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Produceher View Post
But you're missing something. There has been plenty of money in promotion spend on songs that fail.
Yeah, you're right. But then again, there's good and bad, successful and not so successful marketing, istn't there?

I still think, a certain but huge amount of people only know about the music that is presented right under their nose.

Claus
Old 6th August 2007
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardhead View Post
I still think, a certain but huge amount of people only know about the music that is presented right under their nose.
That is a very good way to put it...
Old 6th August 2007
  #288
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"I don't think there is any point in having a producer if the producer doesn't make a hit record... artists can make flop records themselves." - Trevor Horn

...and finding the right audience is more of a marketing skill than an artistic one.

If artists want to make their music noticed and most importantly, BOUGHT, by a mass larger than their 'chums' circle, they will always need a specialised production team who can read the market and produce their art accordingly to meet the public expectations, and a marketing team that will create the public awareness in line with the product's direction.

And yes, there are a lot of people out there who are into buying ****, and they don't care who has the "soul" and who doesn't. In fact, a vast majority of music consumers are like that. They don't even know what a "soul" that some artists talk about is. They just do what they are conditioned to do. And marketing dictation is one of those conditioning processes and making one think it's their own decision while they are doing what they are conditioned to is a part of the game.

One thing the artists can not afford to do is to believe their own hype.

B.
Old 6th August 2007
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barish View Post
"I don't think there is any point in having a producer if the producer doesn't make a hit record... artists can make flop records themselves." - Trevor Horn

...and finding the right audience is more of a marketing skill than an artistic one.

If artists want to make their music noticed and most importantly, BOUGHT, by a mass larger than their 'chums' circle, they will always need a specialised production team who can read the market and produce their art accordingly to meet the public expectations, and a marketing team that will create the public awareness in line with the product's direction.

And yes, there are a lot of people out there who are into buying ****, and they don't care who has the "soul" and who doesn't. In fact, a vast majority of music consumers are like that. They don't even know what a "soul" that some artists talk about is. They just do what they are conditioned to do. And marketing dictation is one of those conditioning processes and making one think it's their own decision while they are doing what they are conditioned to is a part of the game.

One thing the artists can not afford to do is to believe their own hype.

B.

I agree with this too and may I add, I couldn't have said it better myself...

So what happens to the rest of us when we don't have the marketing team and the big time promotion...?

I could write 10 more threads about why I should quit while I'm ahead but only "one" as to why I'm still in it...
Old 6th August 2007
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamsongs View Post
I could write 10 more threads about why I should quit while I'm ahead but only "one" as to why I'm still in it...
It's a big "one" though from what you've displayed: Because song-writing is obviously your passion.
Old 6th August 2007
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C Heat View Post
It's a big "one" though from what you've displayed: Because song-writing is obviously your passion.
That's very true and it always has been but I'm in a big slump right now and I'm not happy about it...
Old 6th August 2007
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamsongs View Post
I could write 10 more threads about why I should quit while I'm ahead but only "one" as to why I'm still in it...
Ever played golf? 50 bad or mediocre shots and then you knock the **** off that one sweet perfect bastard and its like......ahhhhh why would anyone want to do anything else?

thats the only realistic parallel i have been able to preach to the lay person anyways..

it seems like heroin for anyone who has their first top 10 hit...its all over, you're in for life. i know some who haven't had a hit since '86 who are still living off the high
Old 6th August 2007
  #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamsongs View Post
I agree with this too and may I add, I couldn't have said it better myself...

So what happens to the rest of us when we don't have the marketing team and the big time promotion...?
The problem that I see in the way the music industry operated so far is that, those teams' spirits weren't tailored and put together for the artist's style that they represented, but rather they were formed with certain operational spirit templates (which may or may not have fit in any given artist's style) and the artists were expected to fit in those templates rather than the other way around.

That blanked off the acceptable avenues for the majority of artists that didn't fit their bill.

What majors or indies have mandated so far may not be the ideal solution, and up to a big margin, IS NOT the solution as far as artists are concerned (as their solutions are designed to work for only themselves and not the artists) so I'm not suggesting that they were the best among the evils. Nevertheless, any artist who wants to reach beyond their friends and the friends of their friends, they need a producer (which can be again themselves if they are capable of doing that, or somebody else), a salesman, and someone who looks at the bigger picture and takes rational decisions without getting into "what about my art, my soul?" antics.

That again can be the artist himself, but my experience so far is that rationalism does not go so well with artistry. They got to hand over some powers one way or another in order to move forward, which may (and eventually will) work against them after a while, but I guess that's how the nature works. Otherwise they start working against themselves.

Celestial balance.

B.
Old 6th August 2007
  #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barish View Post
The problem that I see in the way the music industry operated so far is that, those teams' spirits weren't tailored and put together for the artist's style that they represented, but rather they were formed with certain operational spirit templates (which may or may not have fit in any given artist's style) and the artists were expected to fit in those templates rather than the other way around.

That blanked off the acceptable avenues for the majority of artists that didn't fit their bill.

What majors or indies have mandated so far may not be the ideal solution, and up to a big margin, IS NOT the solution as far as artists are concerned (as their solutions are designed to work for only themselves and not the artists) so I'm not suggesting that they were the best among the evils. Nevertheless, any artist who wants to reach beyond their friends and the friends of their friends, they need a producer (which can be again themselves if they are capable of doing that, or somebody else), a salesman, and someone who looks at the bigger picture and takes rational decisions without getting into "what about my art, my soul?" antics.

That again can be the artist himself, but my experience so far is that rationalism does not go so well with artistry. They got to hand over some powers one way or another in order to move forward, which may (and eventually will) work against them after a while, but I guess that's how the nature works. Otherwise they start working against themselves.

Celestial balance.

B.

Going back to an earlier post of mine about producing demos for the "powers that be"...

I found that if I could produce 3 or 4 different demos of the same song my chances increase dramatically. IOW, make 3-4 different arrangements and variations on each instance so although it's the same song, they all have a distinct and different treatment from each other.

Of course this is impossible from a practical point of view and incredibly time consuming. Plus the song would have to be worth it to begin with.

But the point I'm trying to make is that if everybody knew exactly what kind of treatment any song needs beforehand without actually having to fully produce it then you have a much better chance.

You hear a song with just guitar and vocal and from that moment on, you know exactly what the song requires. This is the skills that I'm always pursuing as a songwriter and producer.

The problem is that sometimes I'll produce the **** out of a song only to see it shred to pieces at some listening session by some A&R or Publisher. Typically it'll be like -"the song has potential but it's the wrong treatment", and then it's back to the drawing board...

I think that almost everybody who's not a big time producer struggles with this as well. You can start with a good song, produce it poorly and blow it...then you'll never know what it could have been...
Old 7th August 2007
  #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamsongs View Post
In each case, almost all of them gravitated to the same version of the demo which was named "version C". Even friends and family liked that version of the song as well.

were they, chronologically speaking, the third versions you came up with? iow, the first two attempts were only stepping stones?


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Old 8th August 2007
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
were they, chronologically speaking, the third versions you came up with? iow, the first two attempts were only stepping stones?
No, my intention with this song was to demo it 3 times and in 3 different ways. I wanted to see if after I did that, they would turn down all 3 versions. It was an R&B/Pop song.

The 3 versions had distinct different treatments, instrumentation, tempo, beats, arrangements etc. Same lyrics of course but for example, version C had more acoustic instruments than the other 2 and was more straight forward.

Version A had some synths, strings and was a faster tempo and version B was very heavily produced with lots of doubling/BackVocals etc.

I just presented these 3 demos and asked them to pick which one they liked best. Strangely enough, most people chose version C although to me, they all sounded good...

It was my humble little experiment to see what would happen to the same song with 3 different productions.

Since then, I always ask myself after I finish a song "Is this the best I can do with it'? I secong guess it to death because I remember the experience I described.

I don't get second shots when I present material so when it doesn't fly, I always wonder what if I would done this or that. It's torture believe me...
Old 8th August 2007
  #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamsongs View Post
I just presented these 3 demos and asked them to pick which one they liked best. Strangely enough, most people chose version C although to me, they all sounded good...

the methodologist in me would need more info before i took that experiment to mean what you think it meant.

were you present when the songs were being played?

were the songs presented all in the same short period of time?

were they presented in the same order to every person?

indulge me, if you don't mind; something is blipping my radar.


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Old 8th August 2007
  #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamsongs View Post
The problem is that sometimes I'll produce the **** out of a song only to see it shred to pieces at some listening session by some A&R or Publisher. Typically it'll be like -"the song has potential but it's the wrong treatment", and then it's back to the drawing board...

I think that almost everybody who's not a big time producer struggles with this as well.
If you took 5 songs from a big time producer to an A&R or publisher as a non-superstar i don't think anyone would argue that the acceptance rate would be quite different.

I first learned this Sophmore year in high school chemistry class, same instructor, same assignment as my sister 4 years earlier, i copied word for word - she got an A- and I got a C-. Dude with a bowtie just hated the cocky hotshot snotmouth.

Reputations in this industry are so valuable you can build a good business around that alone. If it only took skill alone.....
Old 8th August 2007
  #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
the methodologist in me would need more info before i took that experiment to mean what you think it meant.

were you present when the songs were being played?

were the songs presented all in the same short period of time?

were they presented in the same order to every person?

indulge me, if you don't mind; something is blipping my radar.

gregoire
del
ubk
.

Lol... No, I don't mind indulging you.

OK, I'll answer them in the way it was written.

1) Yes, I was present when the songs were played. I sat quietly in the corner...

2) Yes, the songs were played one after the other.

3) Yes again, they were presented as versions A, B & C in the same CD.

When I played those same songs to my circle of musician friends, fellow songwriters, friends and family they were on separate CD's as I recall. I had one song per CD and I never played the same one first. IOW, I just grabbed them randomly.

For the most part and I would say 80% of those people chose version C as well...
Old 9th August 2007
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamsongs View Post
...I never played the same one first. IOW, I just grabbed them randomly.

that was the primary concern i had. so it does indeed appear as though there was a version that people preferred. food for thought: when the police present witnesses with a photo lineup, the unspoken expectation is that the guilty person is in there, and 99.9% of the time the witness either chooses one of the photos, even when they're uncertain, or says "i can't tell." they *never* say "it's none of these guys."

so, is there any chance you'll post, or pm me, with the 3 (unlabeled!) versions of the song we're talking about? i'm kinda dying to hear all 3 and see which i pick. i ask because re-arranging songs is a passion of mine as well, and i have been known to wrestle with the same kinds of uncertainties you've been talking about.


gregoire
del
ubk
.
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