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Overheads....eq
Old 2nd June 2006
  #1
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Alexi's Avatar
 

Overheads....eq

how do you guys usually start eqing your overhead mics?

Whats the approach...........................personally i do very little, but i heard that people try to "filter" the snare or the kick out......so whats up with that?


cheers
Old 2nd June 2006
  #2


Do what you have to.

I mix live with a lot with a mic on snare, hat, and each tom as well... so I end up shelving the bass up to 1k and putting a little hump back in for the bell on the ride for that side.

Recording in a studio, maybe with 3 or 4 mics is a whole different thing. What's your set-up?



-tINY

Old 2nd June 2006
  #3
Jai guru deva om
 
warhead's Avatar
 

For a clean, crisp sound relying heavily on good close mic sounds, I typically start rolling off low end to keep things more focused. If I'm relying real heavily or 100% on overhead sounds I may scoop the mids a bit to make it a little more hi-fi sounding.

Of course there's no answer that we know will be right for you!

War
Old 2nd June 2006
  #4
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5down1up's Avatar
 

my favourite sounding source on drums is most times the OHs.
sadly when the music gets busy they have to get tweaked.
right now i am rolling off the lowend @ 400 and boost 8khz shelfing +6 db so it doesnt get in the way with all the other stuff and acts more like adding a lil natural sound to those " ugly " close sounding mics and keep it all more brilliant.

never had much luck with compressing em . only when the " player " was hitting the cymbals like a maniac to tame the sound with a long release.

i like the pultec style eqs for em and heard that the fatso is a nice box for the ohs.

just my 1.99 cents
Old 2nd June 2006
  #5
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I am curious about this too. It´s one of the things I usually have more doubts about. First I have to do a bell cut @ 130/150. This because my room is a bit to much reflective and the Kick and toms get too muddy if I don´t cut here. I also cut 130. 150 in the kick track, to make it rounder ( also I boost 3, 4K and a bit of 60/70 hz sometimes).
The thing is, even after i cut that frequencies ( 130) in the Oh, i still hear too much kick, and not a pleasent kick sound but a more distant and roomy sound. Here is where my doubts begin. I feel i should rollof everything under 300 or even 400. The thing is, If I do it I will also destroy my toms, my snare body etc. Then my overheads won´t have much in there...and it sounds unatural to have 80% of the sound from the spot mics. I still didn´t find a good approach for this. So it depends on the song, the drumer, the drums, etc.., but is one of the issues I know i can still do better. I also have some difficulty Equalizing toms. I guess the room acoustics is a fundamental issue here. I would guess that with a very good room you won´t have to cut nothing at all, at least, before you want to make the drums fit within the rest of the music
Old 2nd June 2006
  #6
Over the years using Pro Tools - I have learned that I usually end up hating myself for boosting any frequencys on OH - So I just tend to whip out any room tone that is bugging me... (or 'scoop the mids' as Warren was saying above)

Usually that would be some low mid 'crock' - removing that just makes the kit sound slicker..

Of course on a 'perfect drum room" with a 'perfect kit and a 'perfect drummer' the overheads will sound .....er.. perfect and require no EQ...

Old 2nd June 2006
  #7
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ScumBum's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
Over the years using Pro Tools - I have learned that I usually end up hating myself for boosting any frequencys on OH - So I just tend to whip out any room tone that is bugging me... (or 'scoop the mids' as Warren was saying above)

Usually that would be some low mid 'crock' - removing that just makes the kit sound slicker..

Of course on a 'perfect drum room" with a 'perfect kit and a 'perfect drummer' the overheads will sound .....er.. perfect and require no EQ...

Like Jules said , it depends on the room you record in .

If it was a small room , cut out some 500 if it sounds boxy , honky , donkey .

I don't like how it sounds when I add highs to the overheads in pro tools . I think I need some api eqs.
Old 2nd June 2006
  #8
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firby's Avatar
 

Well. When I record the overheads in my living room where my board and crapass recording gear sits. What I do is put a cut where the snare is at. I find if you have a normal 8 foot ceiling room with a drum set in it the snare drum is pretty much going to be to prominent in the room. So, I pull some of the snare out of the OH and try to use the snare drum mic, in my case a unidyne III.

By "prominent" I mean that you will be forced to blink when the snare drum is hit.
Old 2nd June 2006
  #9
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lemix's Avatar
firby,
A few things to consider ;
If you are after a nice "roomy" drum sound, AND the place sounds great/recorded accordingly >> I'd leave the EQ alone. Paint the rest of the kit within in the mix...
The biggest problem I have with mixing drum tracks originating in less then perfect sounding rooms is..that annoying ring/room mode/hunk that makes it sounding peaky, annoying and boxy.
If the rest of the kit sounds alright..I might just lose the OH's almost entirely.
To apply an effective filter : listen to the OH's in place within the full mix !
Now..tweak..

hope this helps
Old 2nd June 2006
  #10
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About 99% of the time I am using a Royer SF12 for my overheads. I tend to get a decent amount of room tone from the back side of the mic so I usually end up just sucking out some of the roominess and boxiness in the lower mids...maybe 400-600 Hz...and then applying a high shelf to compensate for the Royer's unhyped tone. I do all of this in the mix and always am pretty satisfied by UAD Precision EQ for this. I find that the high end is very detailed and not plasticy sounding at all. I often will throw on even more high end on the drum bus with the UAD Pultec at 12k. I haven't rolled off any low end in my overhead mics for a very long time, but I think I may try it again and see what it gives me. I noticed in the Skid Row thread that Michael Wagener was really carving up the low end on his overhead tracks (done with an SF12) using the Great River EQ.

Brad
Old 2nd June 2006
  #11
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Today on stereo coles in a good room just touching Neve 2264's.. shelf boosting 8k and scooping 500 hz crap/low cut under 40hz on Fearn EQ's.. sounds just swell.thumbsup
Old 2nd June 2006
  #12
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge
Today on stereo coles in a good room just touching Neve 2264's.. shelf boosting 8k and scooping 500 hz crap/low cut under 40hz on Fearn EQ's.. sounds just swell.thumbsup
Right :

Hi boost
Mud cut
Sub cut
Old 2nd June 2006
  #13
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
My only 'rule of thumb' is to high pass around from 80 to 150 cycles...

Beyond that maybe I'll dump some midrange anywhere from 250-2kHz and maybe add a high shelf...depends on the drummer & what his cymbals & kit sound like, the room, the mics...blah blah blee blee. I've got a Summit EQP-200A that sounds just lovely on anything but usually makes it onto overheads when I'm tracking...but only of those Pultec stylee EQ's sound pretty good...like the Tube Techs or Manleys...that seems to be one spot where using a cheap EQ is just REALLY really bad.

The one thing that I ALWAYS do is check the phase of the overheads against each other & all the close mics in one-speaker mono. That matters more then any EQ because it's THE best "EQ."
Old 2nd June 2006
  #14
Gear Head
 
ObnoxiousTyrant's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao
I am curious about this too. It´s one of the things I usually have more doubts about. First I have to do a bell cut @ 130/150. This because my room is a bit to much reflective and the Kick and toms get too muddy if I don´t cut here. I also cut 130. 150 in the kick track, to make it rounder ( also I boost 3, 4K and a bit of 60/70 hz sometimes).
The thing is, even after i cut that frequencies ( 130) in the Oh, i still hear too much kick, and not a pleasent kick sound but a more distant and roomy sound. Here is where my doubts begin. I feel i should rollof everything under 300 or even 400. The thing is, If I do it I will also destroy my toms, my snare body etc. Then my overheads won´t have much in there...and it sounds unatural to have 80% of the sound from the spot mics. I still didn´t find a good approach for this. So it depends on the song, the drumer, the drums, etc.., but is one of the issues I know i can still do better. I also have some difficulty Equalizing toms. I guess the room acoustics is a fundamental issue here. I would guess that with a very good room you won´t have to cut nothing at all, at least, before you want to make the drums fit within the rest of the music
Yes, I think the room is your problem, I had a lot of trouble with toms and overheads until I moved my drum kit to a new room. 30 x 35 ft with a ceiling that goes from 12 to 17 ft. This completely cured the drum sounds. Drums have to breath and decay, high ceilings and a bigger room are a must. I still have shelve 300 Hz but now I don't have to eq nearly as much and the sound is great.
Old 2nd June 2006
  #15
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lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObnoxiousTyrant
30 x 35 ft with a ceiling that goes from 12 to 17 ft.
nice thumbsup




In a smaller room with a low ceiling you can recreate 'some' artificial size by absorbing the entire ceiling, diffusing the walls, and be sure to have wood (or something hard) under the kit for first reflections.
Old 3rd June 2006
  #16
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Brian,

For the ceiling absorbers are you talking 4" thick 703 or some 2" Auralex foam?

Brad
Old 3rd June 2006
  #17
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drmmrboy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge
Today on stereo coles in a good room just touching Neve 2264's.. shelf boosting 8k and scooping 500 hz crap/low cut under 40hz on Fearn EQ's.. sounds just swell.thumbsup
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey
Right :
Hi boost
Mud cut
Sub cut
Yup. Last night I touched a shelf @ 10k, scooped somewhere around 500, and I think I passed @ 70hz...
Sounds peachy!
Old 3rd June 2006
  #18
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max cooper's Avatar
 

I usually have to make do with a pair of API 560's on OH's.

I like to boost some 1K and 2K, maybe drop 30 Hz a bit, and that's it.

That would be for 414's.

Maybe some of you guys could go back and say what mics you'd be eqing for.

Just maybe?

Thanks!
Old 3rd June 2006
  #19
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by max cooper
I usually have to make do with a pair of API 560's on OH's.

I like to boost some 1K and 2K, maybe drop 30 Hz a bit, and that's it.

That would be for 414's.

That makes sense for those ... I was talking about ribbon mics (4038/R88).




Auralex? no ... 703 or 705 or Real Traps Micros (similar) would be my first choice.
Old 3rd June 2006
  #20
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max cooper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5down1up
my favourite sounding source on drums is most times the OHs.
sadly when the music gets busy they have to get tweaked.
I agree, and I've been trying to keep my own arrangements pretty spare for just that reason.
Old 4th June 2006
  #21
Ribbons do seem to react well to some HF lift...

But bosting the HF on condencers can paint you into a nasty hissing / hi hat mess of a corner.. I have done that SO MANY times.. I wince to think about it...tutt
Old 4th June 2006
  #22
Can't you just say as a rule that condenser mics deliver way too much high end for their own good?

Not one, by itself, which sounds great when you monitor it to get a sound.... and not this other one.... or this other one here...

But when you put all of them together, like all the mics on a kit, there's just, insidiously, way too much? Like the high end on any one would be enough for the whole kit?
Old 4th June 2006
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson
Can't you just say as a rule that condenser mics deliver way too much high end for their own good?

Completely depends on the microphone....Neumann KM84, Soundelux iFet7, Soundelux E47, Soundelux E49, Gefell UM75, Neumann M49, etc are all far from bright microphones IMHO. The preamp can easily make as much of a difference as the microphone as to the overall overhead sound.
Old 4th June 2006
  #24
While we are on the subject, some of my best drum sessions have been where I started the session by auditioning mic's & pre amps for the overheads - then once the best combination of mic & pre was found.. moved on from there to select the closer mic's...
Old 4th June 2006
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge
Today on stereo coles in a good room just touching Neve 2264's.. shelf boosting 8k and scooping 500 hz crap/low cut under 40hz on Fearn EQ's.. sounds just swell.thumbsup
You stole my formula!

I alternat between Coles and M160s. I usually use ta pair of Chandler TG Channels (MKI) and a pair of LTD 2s sicne I don't have the original Neves.

It's one of the rare times I'll use a fast a attack on a compressor.
Old 5th June 2006
  #26
84K
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84K's Avatar
Nuke 47 htz and below on the 1081s, scoop out a lovin spoonful of midrange rumble (when doing so, have the drummer play the toms, so you do not lose their body and you get rid of the mud). I like to have the snare cracking in there, but not overly loud (mostly placement deciding that). adjust the top to some cymbal splashing. Bam. 1 minute overhead sound. Comes free with my 8 minute abs video.
Old 5th June 2006
  #27
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max cooper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao
I am curious about this too. It´s one of the things I usually have more doubts about. First I have to do a bell cut @ 130/150. This because my room is a bit to much reflective and the Kick and toms get too muddy if I don´t cut here. I also cut 130. 150 in the kick track, to make it rounder ( also I boost 3, 4K and a bit of 60/70 hz sometimes).
The thing is, even after i cut that frequencies ( 130) in the Oh, i still hear too much kick, and not a pleasent kick sound but a more distant and roomy sound. Here is where my doubts begin. I feel i should rollof everything under 300 or even 400. The thing is, If I do it I will also destroy my toms, my snare body etc. Then my overheads won´t have much in there...and it sounds unatural to have 80% of the sound from the spot mics. I still didn´t find a good approach for this. So it depends on the song, the drumer, the drums, etc.., but is one of the issues I know i can still do better. I also have some difficulty Equalizing toms. I guess the room acoustics is a fundamental issue here. I would guess that with a very good room you won´t have to cut nothing at all, at least, before you want to make the drums fit within the rest of the music
I know exactly what you're talking about. Have you tried moving the mics around? Don't be afraid to try placement that might seem wrong at first. Also, have you messed with different panning widths?
Old 5th June 2006
  #28
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
Ribbons do seem to react well to some HF lift...

But bosting the HF on condencers can paint you into a nasty hissing / hi hat mess of a corner.. I have done that SO MANY times.. I wince to think about it...tutt
FWIW, I fully agree. When using condensors as overheads, I tend to roll off highs above 12k for the mix (-16db per octave starting at 12k). For loud rock especially, this usually gets things sounding punchier than having a bunch of air and fizz up top. It also seems to glue the mix together in a pleasing manner. With ribbons, I'll usually leave the top alone. I'll rarely boost.

So yeah, in my experience, cutting highs almost always sounds better than boosting. Seems to respond well in mastering as well.

That's just my 2 cents, though.
Old 5th June 2006
  #29
Gear Maniac
 
tunasafedolphin's Avatar
 

Just got home from mixing. Done in PTs:A gentle Hi-pass @ 220 ending up pretty much flat around the 400s, about +1.5 db shelf @ 10k, Phoenix plug Luminescene on Sapphire @ about +4 - the plug really helped. Other than that I almost never use compression, and if I do, it's usually a SUPER fast attack / limit style.

The only thing I'd say I always do on overs is run some sort of low cut on 'em. Thats about it. In fact, I usually do just about everything I can to avoid EQ of overs - more so than any other mics on the kit, which I tend to mangle.

-C
Old 5th June 2006
  #30
I roll off the lowend to have less room on the Ovies.. ==> more focused like someone already said.

no high boost. I use C414 ULS or EB as overheads. they are not made to highboost em I think

cheers
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