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Thoughts on 'Speaker in a box' recording?
Old 20th May 2006
  #1
Gear Nut
 

Thoughts on 'Speaker in a box' recording?

Just curious to know what peoples thoughts are on recording guitars through these 'speaker in a box' isolation cabs? I once used a DIY iso cab, but it was quite a while ago and not a very good example.

Are products like the following worth a try, when trying to record loud amps in a small or acoustically inappropriate environment?

http://www.amptone.com/demeterssc1.htm

http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp...Isolation.html

Cheers,

TB
Old 20th May 2006
  #2
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i've heard you could get very good recorings from iso boxes. i want to build one. of course it wont be as good as a great room. but better than modeling.
Old 20th May 2006
  #4
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Yeah, the Axetrak certainly sounds like a handy box to have.

However, it seems awefully limited when compared to the Demeter offering.

But then again, the demo's sound pretty good to me, quite exeptably and significantly better than Iv had from sims.

TB
Old 20th May 2006
  #5
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Anonymatt's Avatar
 

In a few days, I will be taking delivery of a Randall Isolation 12. After a few days of use, I'll definitely have some thoughts to add to the noise, er, dull roar.
Old 20th May 2006
  #6
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymatt
In a few days, I will be taking delivery of a Randall Isolation 12. After a few days of use, I'll definitely have some thoughts to add to the noise, er, dull roar.
Top bloke, appreciate it.

TB
Old 20th May 2006
  #7
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cramseur's Avatar
There's a set of interesting threads on a device called "Motherload" ...it's an amp load/speaker sim which sounds pretty good (in the clips online). Search here for the threads. Also, the Palmer PGA 04 speaker sim.

These are not iso boxes though. They're rack mountes units.


Oh yeah, there's a current thread here too: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/71350-demeter-silent-speaker-cabinet-guitar-players-chime.html
Old 20th May 2006
  #8
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allencollins's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cramseur
There's a set of interesting threads on a device called "Motherload" ...it's an amp load/speaker sim which sounds pretty good (in the clips online). Search here for the threads. Also, the Palmer PGA 04 speaker sim.

These are not iso boxes though. They're rack mountes units.


Oh yeah, there's a current thread here too: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/71350-demeter-silent-speaker-cabinet-guitar-players-chime.html

Yeah palmers are nice as are the Groove Tube SE II's
I see many enginners spend hours on miced guitar sounds only to end up with
the sound these speaker emulators gets you in minutes.


It just myth that great gtr sounds can only come from a miced speaker cab
By the time you eq out all the imperfections of the speaker , the cab and the room it's in
you get the sound the speaker emulator is made for
Old 20th May 2006
  #9
Gear Nut
 

Interesting, I shall have to have a look those boxes. I used an attenuator once, but hated it with a passion. Maybe these gizmos can offer something more.

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

TB
Old 21st May 2006
  #10
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Mastering101's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tee boy
Interesting, I shall have to have a look those boxes. I used an attenuator once, but hated it with a passion. Maybe these gizmos can offer something more.

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

TB

i have been direct recording for years with palmers,pods,sansamps etc
they never would sound as good as a mic on a cab..you will also have to fight to
get them to sit well in a mix.. use a iso cab or better build a box like i did
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Old 21st May 2006
  #11
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Ziggy!!'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by allencollins
By the time you eq out all the imperfections of the speaker , the cab and the room it's in you get the sound the speaker emulator is made for
Sounds more like an improperly designed cab & speaker and an untreated room that requires you to use eq'ing than a myth to me... Unless of course you are trying to make the guitar tone something it was never ment to be...
Old 21st May 2006
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by effectsnut
i have been direct recording for years with palmers,pods,sansamps etc
they never would sound as good as a mic on a cab..you will also have to fight to
get them to sit well in a mix.. use a iso cab or better build a box like i did
There's a similar thread on these types of things around here somewhere, but I'll ask here - what sort of sound reduction are you getting with a device like this? Are these home made (if so, got plans?) or commercially made?

I'd like to find something that not only dramatically reduces the sound of the amp, but also isolates the sounds of drums from leaking into the guitar mics...
Old 21st May 2006
  #13
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Mastering101's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midlandmorgan
There's a similar thread on these types of things around here somewhere, but I'll ask here - what sort of sound reduction are you getting with a device like this? Are these home made (if so, got plans?) or commercially made?

I'd like to find something that not only dramatically reduces the sound of the amp, but also isolates the sounds of drums from leaking into the guitar mics...

The box I have was made by me. I just copied the design from vocalbooth.com
It’s a 3'x3'x3', 3/4' thick birch ...i was going to buy on from www.vocalbooth.com but they wanted 1/3 of the cost of the box to ship it. it would have cost over 1k..
i built one for 250.00 ...i have to say i love the thing. i will never use a speaker sim again
Old 21st May 2006
  #14
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by effectsnut
i have been direct recording for years with palmers,pods,sansamps etc
they never would sound as good as a mic on a cab..you will also have to fight to
get them to sit well in a mix.. use a iso cab or better build a box like i did
Hey that look pretty good!

If only I had the chops with a saw, Id be whipping one of those fellas up myself. As it is, I am a DIY cripple, so I shall probably have to buy one.

The Hermit Cab looks like a good option, and gets some good reviews. Just having a bit of difficulty finding one. So I may end up with a Randall or Axetrak.

And ofcourse, I'll be sure to send in some recordings when the time arrives.

TB
Old 21st May 2006
  #15
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allencollins's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy!!
Sounds more like an improperly designed cab & speaker and an untreated room that requires you to use eq'ing than a myth to me... Unless of course you are trying to make the guitar tone something it was never ment to be...

dude that idiodic. Is there a reference manual somewhere I can buy that tells me
how not to 'make the guitar tone something it was never ment to be'. That silly
That's why most records sound stale and predictable cuz of philosiphy like yours

Eddie V, satriani even Mike cambell from Tom Petty use speaker emulators.
any cutting edge Engineer has at least one in his arsenal.

I can't think of the last miced guitar sound that impressed me.
Maybe an old ozzy record.

"Sounds more like an improperly designed cab & speaker and an untreated room"
duh
Old 22nd May 2006
  #16
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Ziggy!!'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by allencollins
dude that idiodic. Is there a reference manual somewhere I can buy that tells me
how not to 'make the guitar tone something it was never ment to be'. That silly
That's why most records sound stale and predictable cuz of philosiphy like yours

Eddie V, satriani even Mike cambell from Tom Petty use speaker emulators.
any cutting edge Engineer has at least one in his arsenal.

I can't think of the last miced guitar sound that impressed me.
Maybe an old ozzy record.

"Sounds more like an improperly designed cab & speaker and an untreated room"
duh

right... stale and predictable... Thats a laugh... Hey guys! We have the answer why in the music sucks... we all have to use speaker simulators!

The speaker and cab are as much a part of the sound as the player and his guitar... If you are spending time eq'ing out imperfections it is because you suck. No wonder you think a speaker sim sounds as good as a properly tracked guitar. That is why music is stale and boring... It is to hard to do it the right way isn't it? Lets fix it later during tracking they all say... spending the time to "eq out all those imperfections", because im a f*&king lackluster engineer who can't get a decent guitar sound on tape or place a f*&king mic properly... So I think a speaker sim is the holy grail.


Ok mister.
Old 22nd May 2006
  #17
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cramseur's Avatar
Alright you two...STOP this typefighting and put up your clips! You can't win any sorta argument about what sounds stale and predicatble by talking. Don't be so silly.tutt
Old 22nd May 2006
  #18
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AlexLakis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy!!
The speaker and cab are as much a part of the sound as the player and his guitar...
This point is much overlooked by most "guitarists" today. Many guitarists have no clue. Most of the clients I get in have neglected, buzzy, noisy amps/cabs with random EQ settings. They'd rather spend their time downtuning their guitars, drinking beer, and scoring chicks.

I think that's one of the reasons why amp sims are so popular these days, or at least why they're often used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy!!
If you are spending time eq'ing out imperfections it is because you suck.
Well, in that case, it's really the guitarist who sucks, eh?
Old 22nd May 2006
  #19
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I've never had much luck with speaker emulators... although the Palmer is the best of the bunch, but not cheap.

I HAVE had good luck with iso boxes if they're big enough.

all the bass on Relish is a homemade box with a 15 in it... and I've also had good luck with puttin a 4x12 cab in a flight case made for 2 for guitars.

in fact, that's one relatively economical way to go.

if you have a good sealing flight case big enough to stick a cab in and also room for a mic, try it.

as long as you like close mic'ed guitar sounds (and I usually do) it usually works.
Old 22nd May 2006
  #20
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Ziggy!!'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexLakis
This point is much overlooked by most "guitarists" today. Many guitarists have no clue. Most of the clients I get in have neglected, buzzy, noisy amps/cabs with random EQ settings. They'd rather spend their time downtuning their guitars, drinking beer, and scoring chicks.

I think that's one of the reasons why amp sims are so popular these days, or at least why they're often used.
Its like a bandaid on a severed limb though isn't it. It doesn't compare to a properly setup guitar rig, but it is better than nothing right? I've got a speaker sim, im sure a lot of other people do too... I also have autotune but the only reason it gets used is if the singer can't sing... It is the last resort in acheiving passable quality... I wouldn't autotune a singer just for the sake of it though I am sure there are people that do... I wouldn't re-trigger drums just for the sake of it... I wouldn't replace a mic, cab and room with a simulator just for the sake of it... Like I said it is the last resort...

Quote:
Well, in that case, it's really the guitarist who sucks, eh?
Not if part of the problem is mic placement... Or if it is the studio's amp... Or if it is the room & lack of treatment...


I would never have started with the personal jabs if allencolins didn't take it upon himself to say "dude that idiodic. Is there a reference manual somewhere I can buy that tells me
how not to 'make the guitar tone something it was never ment to be'. That silly
That's why most records sound stale and predictable cuz of philosiphy like yours"

Right... because capturing a guitar's sound as a whole the right way is causing music to be stale and predictable... It has absolutely nothing to do with the music itself does it?
Old 22nd May 2006
  #21
Gear Nut
 

Thats actually a good suggestion, I had not considered using a flight case as the isobox exterior.

Id imagine that if you added some proofing foam inside, then put a speaker box inside, THEN put that all into a closet, you'd get some good isolation.

TB
Old 22nd May 2006
  #22
Gear Nut
 

Hey, I just had a thought (yes, dangerous I know)...

I wonder if adding sand would help?

Imagine a sealed case, with another inside (housing the mic and speaker), and a layer of sand inbetween. Or maybe rockwool, somekind of insulator.

You'd be doing a little 'room within a room' environment, but on a much smaller scale.

TB
Old 22nd May 2006
  #23
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allencollins's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy!!
right... stale and predictable... Thats a laugh... Hey guys! We have the answer why in the music sucks... we all have to use speaker simulators!

The speaker and cab are as much a part of the sound as the player and his guitar... If you are spending time eq'ing out imperfections it is because you suck. No wonder you think a speaker sim sounds as good as a properly tracked guitar. That is why music is stale and boring... It is to hard to do it the right way isn't it? Lets fix it later during tracking they all say... spending the time to "eq out all those imperfections", because im a f*&king lackluster engineer who can't get a decent guitar sound on tape or place a f*&king mic properly... So I think a speaker sim is the holy grail.


Ok mister.
Sorry I have just never heard a miced guitar sound that really blew me away
It sounds bad to me. Direct sounds so much more pristine.

Anyway I was simply saying a speaker sim can do alot. If you don't want to use one cool. I'm still gonna. Everyone who has ever heard my demos always ask me how did you get that guitar sound. And they werent asking cuz it sucked.

I'm curious??? What cd/lp has your favorite gtr sound ??

rockon Ziggy
Old 22nd May 2006
  #24
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tough call... I always seem to come back to the guitar sound on Back in Black... even stiff upper lips tone which is slightly rawer than back in black... Both just have that thump of low wattage speakers being pushed to their limits...


Old 22nd May 2006
  #25
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allencollins's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy!!
tough call... I always seem to come back to the guitar sound on Back in Black... even stiff upper lips tone which is slightly rawer than back in black... Both just have that thump of low wattage speakers being pushed to their limits...


I do think AC/DC had some Sabbath in them. in back and black the riff in the bridge part is totally Tony iommi.

That guitar sound is ok a little to much uppermids.
Old 22nd May 2006
  #26
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Mastering101's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tee boy
Hey, I just had a thought (yes, dangerous I know)...

I wonder if adding sand would help?

Imagine a sealed case, with another inside (housing the mic and speaker), and a layer of sand inbetween. Or maybe rockwool, somekind of insulator.

You'd be doing a little 'room within a room' environment, but on a much smaller scale.

TB

i just tried some water it worked great
Old 22nd May 2006
  #27
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by effectsnut
i just tried some water it worked great
I hope you are yesting my friend?

Not sure Id feel 100% safe about immersing my axe arsenal into a vat of the wet stuff, lol.

But if you are being serious, please elabortate!

TB
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