I currently live in the Cleveland, Ohio area and very badly would like spend the rest of my life as an AE (and maybe Producer) making music. Opportunities to make any kind of living in this field in the Cleveland, Ohio area are very limited.

I have a degree in recording and I am Pro Tools certified. I thought that both of those would help, but the market is so over saturated with other engineers looking for studios to hire them on and new startup studios, if they are going the independent route, that even guys who have been recording for years and years are starting to get nervous. The AE and producer to artist ratio is completely out of whack.

So I was thinking: the writing is on the wall, if I stay in the Cleveland area it is going to be really hard to make a living and hard to learn as much as I want to, too. But if I move to Nashville, I would have a lot more studios (and mentors) to choose from. I was hoping to find a nice Assistant Engineering/Pro Tools Op gig where I could work and learn more at the same time.

It seams like such a no brainer thing, but am I missing something?

I don't mind long days and hard work and I have worked so hard to get as far as I have that it seams pointless to give up now (and maybe staying in Cleveland would be giving up).

So what do you think should I move?

Thanks for reading my ramblings.

Nicholas

Nashville is tough competition. I worked at an SSL 48 track room in North Shore MA. The guy that owned the studio moved to nashville thinking there were more musicians there would be more work for him. he was wrong. The more musicains more of everything else like studios and out of work engineers. Plus I would think Nashville is still old school SSL/analog tape. It must be tough to convice a red meat eating cowboy hat wearing line dancer to swallow PT or anything digital.

Also the production techniques are a bit primitive in Nashville. Everthing is still cheezy country pop. Everything is formula and sounds the same. And sounds the same as everything thats come out of nashville for the last 25 years. It never changes. Youd have a tough time learning anything cutting edge down there.

Id stay where you are.

Thanks for the post allencollins.

Anybody else agree or disagree with what he said. Thoughts. Opinions. Please post.

I can't imagne that he's right at all, aside from there being tough competition for gigs. Keep inquiring. Also check out the old yellow board which originates from that neck of the woods:

http://www.3daudioinc.com/3db/index.php?

I can understand why he wants to get out of Cleveland.

Cleveland is dead as a doornail. There's still some sort of "scene" but it's comprised of B bands with one self produced, home recorded CD playing as openers to othre B bands who are actually from somewhere else and play the Agora or the Beachland or Peabody's.

There's lots of cover bands, but their not tracking anything.

The best way to be successful if you're from Cleveland is to go somwheres else and be successful and then come back once in a blue moon so everybody can say "I knew you'd make it."

Cleveland is a very large small town. As far as being the Rock and Roll Capitol of the World... well... At least people go out and SEE bands, but if you're from there, you're gonna rot there.

Moving to Nashville worked for my old buddy, Tom Bukovac. He's probably the #1 go to guy for guitar, down there, now and he's been on enough platinum records to choke a horse.

Different skillset, though. And Tommy's skills are pretty **cking amazing, too.

As far as it being all formulaic drivel, well.. I dunno. I eat red meat. I wear a cowboy hat and I'm working on an album and, it's.. I dunno, man... There's a lot of songs on there that people who have heard them really like. Isn't that the point? Can't line dance for ****, though.

Moving ANYwhere means doing a lot of feeling around, finding some source of income in an industry you CAN work in, even if it's just to live indoors until you can get a job in one you WANT to work in.

It's a lot of sniffing arond and it always comes down to just putting your **** in a Ryder truck and going.

I wish you luck getting out of Cleveland, though.

Amen.

No offense bro... but that is almost comical!! Yoiu have apparently never even worked in Nashville, and you are talking like you know all about it. LOL...

Well... I live and work here... and I can assure... what you say is... FAR from the truth. Almost every small, medium, to large sized commercial facility in town has a DAW of some sort. Mostly Pro Tools. All the bigger studios do have SSL's, or Neve's or API's (or a combination), but now either include a Pro Tools rig in each room, or are wired for quick PT connection, and have a floating PT system. Pro Tools systems are available for rental at all the major rental houses (as are Nuendo rigs ... mine is one of them). Most shops do still have a 2" machine, but they are only used on big, big budget major label records for the most part... and even then... the project still finds it's way into Pro Tools. Have you not listened to a Nashville made record in the past 5 years??? Holy Cow!!

The other very popular format here is Radar. You will find that in many of the top shops. There are also a LOT of non-country records recorded here (but it is of course still VERY much a "country town"). There are even some studios specializing in Post... and then down in Franklin (a suburb... actually where I live), the Christian Music industry is thriving... but you get paid less... and less often in that biz.

Anyway. To anyone wanting to move here to work as an AE... I would say it's like anywhere you go. If you are REALLY good at your skills you have a chance. What is next most important... is you. Here in Nashville, more than any other market I have seen... it's about who you know. You gotta be likeable, reliable, AND really, really good at your craft. Socializing and having at least a small catalog of work that you have done that sounds GOOD will get you going. For Pro Tools guys... there is DEFINITELY work, but there are a LOT of PToolers here... so it is competitive.

Come on down... be prepared to do some shlep gigs... or intern a bit. You make have to wait tables and try to find a couple small studios that you can work with local bands you bring in or something like that... where you can make your engineering rate and they cut you a break on the room price.

There is work for guys with your skills... and MOST of the engineers are shielded from the "Redneck, Cowboy" factor that allen seems to think is predominant down here. But... you gotta work hard.... and be a real cool dude that people want to hang with...

Come on Nashville guys... I know there are more of you on here. Back me up on this... I am pretty sure after working here for almost 10 years now I have this at least pretty close...

p.s. And... I have been able to find work all this time... even though I don't do Country...

I have been in Nashville for four years and have not touched country music once. My (modern rock) band Harsh Krieger was signed to Sony within 2.5 years, we toured and then we broke up. Now I am a rock, alternative, electronica, producer making a living in Nashville. It's not easy and I'm not rich, but thers deffinately a lot more going on in Nashville than country music. It's those that think it's all about country that never venture out here, and see what's really going on. I think more than anything moving to Nashville will humble you in a good way if you take your work seriously. You will find out there is much room to improve. There's so much competition and that's what you need if you want to continue to get better. I love it here. You may or may not.

VERY well said. I am humbled every day. SO much talent here.... And dude.. .cool. We oughta hang sometime.... I do the same kinda stuff. Suprised we don't know each other! lol...

There is always room for the "AMAZINGLY TALENTED IN EVERY WAY" in Nashville. If you don't fall into that category, it will likely chew you up and spit you out. Sorry, but that is the truth.

On the bright side, it never hurts to give it a shot. You may turn out to be "AMAZINGLY TALENTED IN EVERY WAY". You never know.

Actually I find Nashville comical. I lived near there for a year in Pegram.
Nice town but to whimpy for me.

As far as Nash and Digital maybe your right. Lots of Country disks sound real sterile these days.
Not to mention cliche'

Anyway there is talent anywhere and everywhere in the world. Nashville scene is may be hot again but who cares. It really is a one dimension musical town.

I remember back in 85 all my friends moved to LA to 'Make it'. Back in 92 they went to Seatle to 'Make it'. In 95 they went to Nashville cuz country was red hot.

Everyone is looking for the 'magical bullet' If it's not a 1073 preamp it's Nashville, LA, or Grenich Village

I remember in 87 when Boston was red hot with what is now called alternative (yes it started in boston) I met several bands that relocated from CA and the Midwest for boston's alternative scene. I couldn't help but laugh.

Stay where you are. If you can't 'make it' where you are you simply can't 'make it' anywhere
Music Indrustry is not like the film industry. It is not confined to one location in the U.S.

Bottom line is if you can be successful where you are at them moment it has nothing to do with the location your at at the given moment

Success is in your soul

I am from Cleveland as well.... I dont know where you went to school but a recording degree is worthless. The PT certified thing is kind of worthless as well unless you want to teach or give PT "lessons"......

I have thought about the move to Nashville but I have an inside contact or co-worker person that is a writer and that has and will open doors for me. I cowrite but mostly produce his demos and other stuff he does.... Nashville is for sure a lot more other styles of music than country.... and there is sooooooooo much great talent and artist there!!!!

But I am in cleveland and making a living as an engineer/producer. If you are good and can get clients it doesnt matter where you live! Now if you want to work in a studio where you may be engineering and stumble across some grammy nominations along the way, that is not going to happen in Cleveland. But you have to be set as a house engineer to land those gigs!!!!

Bottom line is talent gets noticed!

Get your name out in Cleveland, it sucks and its a grind but there is pleanty of work here! And get in a studio with a Neve or SSL to learn it, different monitors and learn them, different outboard gear and learn that.... so that when the time comes you know how to use everything! Thats education!!!

lol. heh Dude... you sound kinda bitter. I guess if I lived in Pegram for a year... I might be too... lol. (For those that don't know... Pegram is a VERY small, VERY rural Tennesses town about 50 minutes west of Nashville).

In all seriousness... I really think it's funny to make such a broad statement about a town. If you lived here, or had even worked professional as an AE here in this town, and then compared it to NY, LA, Austin, Chicago, etc. you would have to say that yes... Country is big business here, but FAR from the only business. This town is every bit as multi-dimensional as those other cities! I mean... we have metal projects being done here (Megadeath, Queensryche, Kings-X, Skid Row), we have Country (name any one of 100), Pop/Alt Rock (Ryan Adams), Roots Rock (Patty Griffin, Lucinda Williams), Pop (Jewel, Robert Randolph Band), Movie Soundtracks (MANY), Rock (Dire Straights/Mark Knopfler), Sample Library/Surround Innovaters (Jim Corrigan), Some of the best Mastering Houses... some of the best producers Engineers (who don't just do country.. or don't do country at all), (Richard Dodd, Chuck Ainley, George Massenburg, Michael Wagener, Justin Neibank (spelling??) and TON's of others that live and work here. These are just the few that pop immediately to mind.

As to succeeding. Ok... if your success is in your soul (as I agree it is...well... or at least in your attitude), were I pasionate about snow-skiing... I would not DREAM of opening a ski shop in Key West Florida.... ya know?? Aspen would be a good choice. Nashville can be a good choice for the AE.... ya know???

Anyway.... nothing personal... and I suppose your impressions "from a distance" are valid since they are "your" perceptions.... but honestly... you are missing a HUGE part of the picture here. Huge. To anyone that actually lives and works here in Nashville... you come across as someone that is somewhat bitterly making unconfimed suppositions... that are clearly incorrect. To those that haven't lived/worked here... you say your piece with such conviction that I am compelled to try to give a more correct opinion from someone "on the ground" here so your words won't be taken as "fact"... Sorry bro... but you really are WAY off base.

Best to ya... and I am not being sarcastic... I mean that.

I say **ck it dude, do it. It's better to regret something you did than regret something you didn't do. Can your work situation be any worse in Nashville than it is where you are now. Nashville is the music capitol of the US by performer population alone. Am I right?

Thanks for all of the replies so far. Keep 'em coming!

If I were to move down there, what would be the best way to get noticed, being as I don't know anybody in Nashville right now.

Nicholas, give it a shot.
What have you got to loose?
It doesn't look like your going to be able to make a living in Ohio.
If you can't make it in Nashville, go back to Ohio.
I would first go down there and investigate the scene.
Good luck!

You could try calling all the people from Nashville that just posted on here. Seriously. I don't live in Nashville, but I know several people there...working musicians. From what I gather from hanging with them. It's not called "little big town" for nothing. There is a sense of community there. Everyone knows everyone.

I would have thought I would have a PM from him since I am in Cleveland doing steady work and working for other areas and have nashville contacts!!! But nothing.... HMMMMMMMMM. If you are going to make it you gotta PUSH HARD!

I'm in the Cleveland area as well, and have thought about relocating, but can't due to family obligations. Years ago, I made a two week treck to Nashville, and was very impressed with the quality of musicians I met, and the record company people were also top notch, and very friendly and informative about the business. I even managed to get some potential bookings on a cable tv show, but had to pass and get back home. If you want my advice, bring enough money to live for at least a couple of months... get out there and mingle, mingle mingle...it's all a matter of who you know. The competition is fierce, many people go to Nashville looking for a pot of gold, and it ain't always there.

The thing I didn't like about Nashville was the constant harasment I got from the cops. They thought I was a drug dealer or something. They searched my van a few times while I was there.The straw that broke the camel's back though, I picked up a Sunday paper, and on the front page they had a picture of a guy on the ground, spead eagle with about six cops pointing shotguns at him...what did he do ?? He got caught stealing a box of fish. That just seemed a little too heavy handed for me. So I packed up and left town, and never went back.

On the other hand, I went to Toronto, and absolutely loved the music scene there. The fans are great, they love musicians there. If I were to relocate, that's where I'd go.

As far as the big city of Cleveland goes though, I try my best to stay out of there. Why ?? Parking tickets..... they hand them out like popcorn. If I go to Cleveland, I get a parking ticket, I stay home, I don't, so I stay home. I even caught one meter maid standing by my truck just waiting for the meter to tick off....luckily I got back with a couple of minutes to spare......Now they're handing out 1000's of speeding tickets every month, using video camera's...I don't even want to drive in that town anymore.

Mr. CrypticGlobe knows his stuff. This is all very smart and true. Also, the sheer volume of amazing people/musicians is enough to make "the best" in any town hit the woodshed. At its best, it's a great place to live - very rewarding when you get to work with one of your heroes and he/she is super cool. At its worst, there are people that are going for months without work. Some for literally no reason. They are great musicians/people, but the cards haven't fallen right. There's really no explaining it sometimes. This is truly a situation where YMMV.

I thought of that too. In fact that was one of the reason I created this thread. Thanks for the reply.

Point taken. You have a PM.

What successes I've had have always come from taking giant leaps of faith like this. If you believe that Nashville is the place for you, then you should do it.

Good luck!

hey Nek, come to Nashville. I am young, just out of college and attending recording school, SAE. I can usually hustle about $350 a month recording demos for country people or rock people with an 002 Rack and a G4 laptop. That isn't a fortune, but it is a start.

It sucks, I have to work part time at a web design company, and do a lot of live sound, but there is a lot of opportunities and a lot of people trying make it. There is a lot of competition. If it was easy, then it wouldn't be any fun would it?

I have not been to Nashville myself, so I can't comment that much about it. But it would be a dream come true if I would be able to do something meant for me in a music city like Nashville. What I feel is really good about Nashville, besides the fact that I love modern country music a lot, is that I think it would be very inspiring to live in a city where music is such a very big part of the overall way and style of living. I think there might be a number of additional positive side effects with that... Besides this, Nashville is famous for great session players, which is a good thing for things around music and recording. I would also guess that Nashville is a more Christian city than Cleveland, I think that could further make the quality of living, better. As far as your PT expertise is concirned I think it is not a problem, but it is certainly something you could "build" around in terms of more competence that is suitable overall in Nashville.

I bet the competition is hard and so forth, but these days I think the competition is generally quite hard everywhere and you also need to think about the pros about Nashville as well as long term goals in your life, about finding out who you are, experience new things in your life, get a lot of good insight about how music can be perceived and felt like in different cities...

Today Nashville also includes a lot of additional popular genres besides country and it is a city that almost all good bands have on their tour list.

Overall I think it would make sense for you if you would move to Nashville if you now are considering to do so. If you go alone maybe you should take a pet of some kind, just to easen the overall pain of being alone in a new big city. If you are not a Christian, moving to Nashville might also give you deeper values that you are currently not aware of but can make your life richer and you'll might become a more happy person, which is really something that would be good for you in that case. Cleveland is a city quite oriented around heavy manufacturing, construction and industry work, might be that you feel that Nashville is more beautiful and will feel a little more like YOUR home.

Besides this, most comments about Nashville are on the positive side rather than on the negative side, might be an important thing to pay attention to... I think however, that if you plan to go to Nashville, learn to like country music before you go there. In that way you might get attached to Nashville before you have even moved there. I think country music today offers something for everyone. You can go the old traditional route (George Strait, Dolly Parton, Alan Jackson), the bluegrass route (Ricky Skaggs), the popular route (Rascal Flatts, Bon Jovi, Carrie Underwood) or something in between (Brooks & Dunn, Garth Brooks, Vince Gill, Trisha Yearwood, Diamond Rio, Lee-Ann Rimes...) I basically like them all in one way or another... Country is the music genre that has stayed rock solid through the modernisation/globalisation/external fixation... It's a general sign of high quality... If you are used to a more hard "climate" in every imaginable way, Nashville might feel like heaven...

No matter what decision you make, good luck brother!

You don't have to like country at all; c'mon, you just listed Bon Jovi as a pop country singer (and sadly, i think that the duet he sang on was #1 last week). Honestly, you don't have to like the music that you work on...

I know folks in town who make their living playing jazz - full time, no apologies straight ahead jazz (and some free jazzers, like Jeff Coffin - but I don't know exactly what that is...). I know guys who only play rock, alternative, rock and roll, and R&B. There's a hell of a lot of music here that isn't country. The last three records I produced were a mainstream vocal jazz record, an alternative singer/songwriter project and a blues/R&B record. The next two on my schedule are are somewhat stranger than that... But they're a long way from what 'country' has degenerated into...

Besides, I would rather have a root canal than 'learn to like' what Music Row considers to be 'country' these days.

Well you sure do have metal projects down there of bands that were washed up 15 years ago. Much of the cutting edge metal is in Massachusetts these days

Anyway YOU TOTALLY MISSED MY POINT. MY POINT IS..........................

If you can't be succesful where you are at a given moment you just can't be succesful at all. Location has nothing to do with success. Sure if your a golfer
it would be tough being successful in Alaska or if you are Bode Miller living in Florida would be tough to be a successful skier. But audio is worldwide and music has no boundries. It doesnt matter where you live or work. The ratio of talented engineers and musicains is same everywhere in the world.

I suppose if this guy wants to be a country artist or producer he would have a better chance 'making it ' in Nash but if that's not the case Id stay where you are
unless you just don't like the weather in Cleveland. Not to mention There isn't one good Baseball team in all of Tenn. And their pizza and fried clams suck down there. Plus all the best Pro Audio dealers are Yankees

I guess I missed THAT point because 98% of what you wrote was an ill-conceived diatribe about what a one-dimensional, loser town Nashville is.

So score looks like:
One against going to Nashville,
A dozen or so for going to Nashville.

Keep your experiences and thoughts about Nashville coming.
This is seriously helping a lot guys.

If anybody knows anybody that could possibly be looking for someone like me, Please, Please, PM me with the details.


Nicholas

What are your goals? Is it just to be a steadily working AE on whatever projects you can get, or is it to be able to work your way into working with high profile artists and projects? If the answer is the former, then yes, you can carve out a living anywhere, of course the quality of the material and artists will invariably vary.

If the answer is the latter, then yes, you must relocate. Not necessarily to Nashville, but either there, L.A., New York, Miami, or to a lesser extent a few other major cities, which is where the top artists and producers reside and/or come to work.

I'm not from Nashville, but I've visited Nashville a few times and purchased a couple of Gibson Les Pauls there.
Here's my overall impression:
Fantastic musicians!
Musicians who can play and record in one take!
Great singers!
Singers that can actually sing on key!
I'm in awe of the talent that is in Nashville, practically everywhere!
Nashville is no hick town.
The studios I visited all had the latest state-of-the-art gear, with very knowledgeable, well-seasoned, talented engineers.
I really believe it's the music capital of USA.
I usually stay at the Opryland Hotel, which is amazing!
The one thing I HATE about Nashville is that the food is soooo good, I'd weigh a ton if I lived there!
The only thing better in California are the freeway signs. The Northern CA music scene has faded in comparison.
I travel quite a bit and Nashville is one of my top 5 favorite places to visit.
Nashville is NOT a hick town!

what also helps is that youll be sorounded by musicians (if u know where they are) and other engineers and people that share the same passion. a lost of people dont really care what they work on and just like the paycheck to get stuff get drunk have kids home etc. others like me love talking about gear, music production, music and thats tough in -- lets say ft lauderdale--- or south carolina unless u have a small niche of friends which you can do that, but still wont grow much from there.
by meeting musicians , engineers etc you can mature with the pros. learn the biz and take it back to ohio.
as for nashville itslef i have no idea how it is. i know i hate the south but thats me.- there was a lot of happy fat mall-shopping white guys and teenage crunked kids around who love it, but again thats more of what you like, grow up etc.
i know there is a lot of braziliand bands who fly north to record there, and besides country i know george masenburg is around there and i heard some of his stuff n and it was more of world music and other stuff.
so i dont think is only country.