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Neil Young's New Protest Album
Old 16th May 2006
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zakco
IMO, the minute "your country" and "your soldiers" left it's/their home soil, invaded another country, you opened yourself (your country) to criticism from foreigners. You can't invade another country for no apparent reason (or reasons based on plain and simple LIES) , slaughter THOUSANDS of their citizens, and then say to the world "mind yer own fukkin business". tutt

Damn. I broke my own rule. Never debate politics with total strangers over the internet.

Oh yeah.....Neil.
Regardless of the politics, I'm looking forward to hearing this record.

-Z-
I'm sure my brother in Ramadi would love to hear that he's been slaughtering civilians.

STFU.
Old 16th May 2006
  #62
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Oldone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by baikonour
Interesting thread, but I' don't understand the "show support to our troops" statements... I mean I know they are risking their lives, but fukk they have chosen to be in the army...There's no conscription in the US any more right? This is not WW2 or Vietnam...If you want to become a profesionnal soldier, you should know what it implies: the business of killing people and the risk to be killed.
(As well as a morbid fascination for weapons and authority...)
Maybe some poor bastards join the army for other reasons: Like Free "education", love of uniforms...hum...male company?
I mean I deplore all loss of human lifes in this sordid conflict but if I had to choose between the life of a civilian and someone who choose to be a profesionnal soldier....

What do you think? Sorry for the slight hijack.....I've listen to the Neil Young album though !
I think you're an idiot who has an easy life. Hey, you asked.
Old 17th May 2006
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baikonour
Interesting thread, but I' don't understand the "show support to our troops" statements... I mean I know they are risking their lives, but fukk they have chosen to be in the army...There's no conscription in the US any more right? This is not WW2 or Vietnam...If you want to become a profesionnal soldier, you should know what it implies: the business of killing people and the risk to be killed.
(As well as a morbid fascination for weapons and authority...)
Maybe some poor bastards join the army for other reasons: Like Free "education", love of uniforms...hum...male company?
I mean I deplore all loss of human lifes in this sordid conflict but if I had to choose between the life of a civilian and someone who choose to be a profesionnal soldier....

What do you think? Sorry for the slight hijack.....I've listen to the Neil Young album though !
Baikonour,

Instead of flaming you or getting angry or frustrated in your general direction, I'd like to share with you my own experience and subsequent point of view.

Once upon a time, I was pretty close to your point of view, until not too long ago (a few years). Eventually, I had read enough history and studied the real events around me and in my world to do pretty much a 180 on the subject.

In regards to how you might describe a volunteer soldier, U.S. or UK, have you spent any time with one? Luckily I had the proveladge of spending the Thanksgiving holiday with the 506th Brigade of the 101st Airborne Division (the same brigade/ division that flushed the Germans out of Bastogne in WW2). I was there a whole week, only days before they were to deploy to Iraq. What I saw for the most part were EDUCATED people with famalies, not eager to go to war, and without any "morbid fascination" that you speak of. I can guaranteee you that not every single one of our soldiers in Iraq think we should be there, or even support the war.. but that's just it. They swore an oath and agreed to do what they are ordered to do, and they went honorably. My brother ENLISTED as an educated person at 22 years old, went in as a private and was promoted to Specialist and became team leader before deployment. He "does his job" and nearly gets blown up every day in Ramadi for less than minimum wage. The LEAST we can all do is "give support," even if it's only because these guys are in a God-awful crappy situation day in and day out.

What I offer them is not "hero worship" or war-mongering, but simply my support. "I'm here, and I know what you guys are dealing with. Thanks, and I hope you get home safe to your families." Tha's all.

I completely think that you can "support the troops" without supporting a war. If Some crazed rogue nation DID for some reason attack the UK, your troops there and our troops here would be the first ones to lay down their lives to protect you. You can't say you support them as people ONLY in your own personal time of crisis. Heck if you don't support the war, speak out. But I beleive you can still support the soldiers.

I'm not sure if you will read this or care, and obviously I followed some people down the "off-topic" road, but I felt I needed to explain some things.
Old 17th May 2006
  #64
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now that this has zero to do with gear or music....

when civilians are killed en masss it is usually from "precision" bombing, not by troops on the ground.

by most accounts the US soldiers on the ground do a pretty amazing and dangerous job and i give them quite a bit of credit. it is their bosses job to decide when and HOW to send them in.

if anyone would like to get more interesting info on the topic take a listen to this program:

"What's in a number"

at the site: www.thislife.org

just do a search for the title. you will find out more about how civilian casualties occured in this war than you ever wanted to know. very interesting stuff. i learned a lot. it confounded a lot of my assumptions.

almost all the civilian casualties that are happening right NOW tho are not the direct result of US troops at all. they are the result of low/mid grade civil war.

another interesting documentary on how war works is "the fog of war" by erroll morris, featuring robert mcnamera. also very interesting and unpredictable inside information on war.

ok, back to the boxes with knobs!!
Old 17th May 2006
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldone
I think you're an idiot who has an easy life. Hey, you asked.
Wow that's a clever and constructive post.
Old 17th May 2006
  #66
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hey, Astronomr20 and Eligit, thanks for your replies, I may not share your point of view but I respect it and I understand where you are coming from, particulary as members of your families are currently risking their lives in Iraq.
As painful as it can be though, you cannot compare the current situation with WW2 or any other conflict involving a conscription based army.
As both the US and british armies are 100% profesional, these soldiers made a personal and I believe an "informed" choice while joining.
Old 17th May 2006
  #67
Gear Addict
 
van Overhalen's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eligit
now that this has zero to do with gear or music....

when civilians are killed en masss it is usually from "precision" bombing, not by troops on the ground.

by most accounts the US soldiers on the ground do a pretty amazing and dangerous job and i give them quite a bit of credit. it is their bosses job to decide when and HOW to send them in.
I do not know if this is just an example of really bad propaganda but I have seen
interviews with american soldiers on german telly who stated that they have a
sound system on their tanks, everybody is wearing headphones and they liked to listen to " burn motherf...er burn" really loud as they approached Bagdad and killed basically everything that moved because as they said it was impossible to tell whether someone was a civillian or a terrorist or a soldier...

You know they simply feared for their own lifes, so...

...now this actually has something to do with music, no?
Old 17th May 2006
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by van Overhalen
I do not know if this is just an example of really bad propaganda but I have seen
interviews with american soldiers on german telly who stated that they have a
sound system on their tanks, everybody is wearing headphones and they liked to listen to " burn motherf...er burn" really loud as they approached Bagdad and killed basically everything that moved because as they said it was impossible to tell whether someone was a civillian or a terrorist or a soldier...

You know they simply feared for their own lifes, so...

...now this actually has something to do with music, no?
every single war that has ever occured has savage uncontrolled behavior where you cannot tell friend from foe. nature of war. (i still think the BULK of the casualties were not as a result of soldiers on the ground firing at anything that moved out of fear of the enemy. they resulted from bombing. not sure this is an earth shattering distiction...but it's still not the same thing.)

so it is up to those that initiate the conflict to decide if the inevitable civilian deaths are worth it.

hence the song "let's impeach the president" from the record.
Old 17th May 2006
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baikonour
hey, Astronomr20 and Eligit, thanks for your replies, I may not share your point of view but I respect it and I understand where you are coming from, particulary as members of your families are currently risking their lives in Iraq.
As painful as it can be though, you cannot compare the current situation with WW2 or any other conflict involving a conscription based army.
As both the US and british armies are 100% profesional, these soldiers made a personal and I believe an "informed" choice while joining.
i have NO family members in the military. i myself could probably never bring myself to become a soldier because i do not think i could shoot and kill another person on purpose.

i have read and seen quite an interesting series of documentaries about who the U.S. troops are, why they joined, what they feel about the current conflict.

it is a vast military and there is a HUGE diversity of feelings on all these matters...
Old 17th May 2006
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kats
Neil Young is hardly Canadian - he's been in the US for 35 years and only comes up here for visits once in a blue moon.
He was part owner of Lionel Trains Inc. of which I was a avid collector for years. But he and the other powers that be there decided to close the American factory, fire all the life long employees and move everything to China. So much for Teach Your Children Well. dfegad Neil Young.
Old 17th May 2006
  #71
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7 Hz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim L
He may not be "American", but he's certainly "Americana".
Just to be picky, American refers to anyone from the Americas, Canada to Argentina, although the USA has done a great job of taking the name all for itself! Pedantic point, but it's true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baikonour
you cannot compare the current situation with WW2 or any other conflict involving a conscription based army.
Oh yeh, and Hitler fired the first shot...

-------------------------------

Anyway, good on Neil to record this... it sounds like what it is, a live recording. Not really feeling that snare drum sound or level, like the feel of everything else though. Tallented people making raw music sounds so much better than polished perfectionisim (for rock).
Old 17th May 2006
  #72
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Oldone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by baikonour
Wow that's a clever and constructive post.
Why thank you. You're too kind.
Old 19th May 2006
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Hz
Just to be picky, American refers to anyone from the Americas, Canada to Argentina, although the USA has done a great job of taking the name all for itself! Pedantic point, but it's true.



Oh yeh, and Hitler fired the first shot...

-------------------------------

Anyway, good on Neil to record this... it sounds like what it is, a live recording. Not really feeling that snare drum sound or level, like the feel of everything else though. Tallented people making raw music sounds so much better than polished perfectionisim (for rock).
To continue with your picky theme, it's called the United States of America and Canada is called Canada unless you are now saying it is really Canada of America in which case I suppose we should annex it..

And if the US is such a scurge, while the hell can't I get to my own beach right here at my own home at VA beach in the summer but for the Canadian tourists? In other words, they come here in droves. And if Canada is such a "fine" place do tell why the hell are there so many Canadians working here on green cards that never return ? Just asking of course - seeing as to how you want to be nit-picky about things.
Old 19th May 2006
  #74
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Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pianodano
To continue with your picky theme, it's called the United States of America and Canada is called Canada unless you are now saying it is really Canada of America in which case I suppose we should annex it..

And if the US is such a scurge, while the hell can't I get to my own beach right here at my own home at VA beach in the summer but for the Canadian tourists? In other words, they come here in droves. And if Canada is such a "fine" place do tell why the hell are there so many Canadians working here on green cards that never return ? Just asking of course - seeing as to how you want to be nit-picky about things.
Erm, and with that, lets send this moron and the entire thread to bed, yeah?
Christ, I regret ever typing this cursed thread out in the first place. Should have known it would bring out the patriotic wackos and argumentative goons. fuuck
Old 19th May 2006
  #75
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Jazzpunk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray
Erm, and with that, lets send this moron and the entire thread to bed, yeah?
Christ, I regret ever typing this cursed thread out in the first place. Should have known it would bring out the patriotic wackos and argumentative goons. fuuck
No offense but the name of the album is called 'Living With War' and the entire reason for it's creation is for it to serve as an anti-war political statment...what were you expecting?!



Old 19th May 2006
  #76
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7 Hz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pianodano
To continue with your picky theme, it's called the United States of America and Canada is called Canada unless you are now saying it is really Canada of America in which case I suppose we should annex it.
I was just pointing out that the CONTINENT is called 'The Americas', you know, North, Central, and South America? It is common, especialy in the Latin American parts of the continent, to consider oneself 'Americano' i.e. from the continent of America. Unfortunatly, the country that took the continents name, i.e. the Untited States of America, people from there get called Americans (among other things :-) as opposed to all the other countries where the founders were original enough to choose a different name for their country and therefore a different name for themselves (Mexican, Canadian, Columbian etc etc). Again, I know it's a pedantic point, but it is a point worth pointing out IMHO.

What the heck Canadians swarming round your beach area has to do with it, I'm not sure! Can you not buy some powder or something for that? Canadianaway? Pppt they're like flies, gettem OFF!
Old 19th May 2006
  #77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray
Christ, I regret ever typing this cursed thread out in the first place. Should have known it would bring out the patriotic wackos and argumentative goons.
No need to bring Jesus into it.

This is a public forum. There are going to be people with opinions opposite from your own. To label them "patriotic wackos" is unfair, both to patriots and to wackos.

-gil
Old 20th May 2006
  #78
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Hz
What the heck Canadians swarming round your beach area has to do with it, I'm not sure! Can you not buy some powder or something for that? Canadianaway? Pppt they're like flies, gettem OFF!

Old 20th May 2006
  #79
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GP_Hawk's Avatar
fuuck fuuck fuuck fuuck
Old 20th May 2006
  #80
jbo
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pianodano
He was part owner of Lionel Trains Inc. of which I was a avid collector for years. But he and the other powers that be there decided to close the American factory, fire all the life long employees and move everything to China. So much for Teach Your Children Well. dfegad Neil Young.
ha, i think that sounds like a pretty "american" thing to do.
Old 20th May 2006
  #81
Quote:
Originally Posted by eligit
when civilians are killed en masss it is usually from "precision" bombing, not by troops on the ground.

by most accounts the US soldiers on the ground do a pretty amazing and dangerous job and i give them quite a bit of credit. it is their bosses job to decide when and HOW to send them in.

if anyone would like to get more interesting info on the topic take a listen to this program:

"What's in a number"

at the site: www.thislife.org

just do a search for the title. you will find out more about how civilian casualties occured in this war than you ever wanted to know. very interesting stuff. i learned a lot. it confounded a lot of my assumptions.

almost all the civilian casualties that are happening right NOW tho are not the direct result of US troops at all. they are the result of low/mid grade civil war.
I am am American, and an atheist. These two facts place me among the most hated people in the world....

I find this alarming and at the same time somewhat comical......

I digress...

I am an American and a good part of the world does not like me for it.

I don't like that.

On the other hand just because I am an American does not mean they do not have a point.... As an American I am in the minority of the world's population and that many people can't be completely wrong can they?

I do support our troops, I did support the idea of taking a stronger stand with Iraq, up to war if need be.

I was told that there were weapons of mass destruction.

From what I knew of Saddam's past history that was a possibility.

There were no weapons of mass destruction and I will not let my mind be lulled into thinking that at one point or another the war was about anything other than WMD. I know what I was told, I remember and I will not be tricked into believing something else.

Because of this I feel the war was not and is not valid, we were lead to believe one thing and now we are tricked into believing another.

Was the WMD issue an intentional overlooking of the facts or just a stupid mistake? I would tend to lean toward the latter but the former is a distinct possibility.

BUT

PEOPLE ARE DIEING! Is it the bullets of the U.S. troops on the ground killing these folks? No I agree it is not the U.S. troops doing the majority of the killing now....

At the same time it is the fault of a peace that was not well planned, well executed or established and this all stems from a war that was based on a false premise.

So no I do not blame the troops on the ground.

I can and do still blame the government that sent them there and in that regard we the citizens of the U.S. are to blame for letting our leaders play on our fears to enter us into the first non provoked war in our history (you can talk about the war of 1812 all you want, there was some provocation even if it was a mistake).

Were were we??

Ahhh yes.... The point....

The point is, "the troops" are not killing citizens in Iraq but citizens are dieing that would not have died had it not been for our government... and I think about this as I sit in my cozy house with my dogs and my full belly and it makes me a little..... uncomfortable.

When someone dies while we argue the fact that we are justified in the actions that lead to their demise or while we try to play the "WMD, no wait, freedom for the citizens of Iraq" shell game we should all feel a little............ uncomfortable.

If you don't feel uncomfortable with someones death..... any-ones death.... well.... time to start questioning your morality. As an atheist my morality is questioned quite often. My morality is just fine thank you.... I am uncomfortable with any death. That is not the only hallmark of morality... but it sure is a good place to start don't ya think?

When anyone dies because of our actions or inactions it should give rise to pause.... If a piece of music makes you stop to consider someone else's demise that is EXACTLY what good art should do. You don't have to agree with it but it should cause you to stop for a second..... when I stop to catch my breath I don't like what I find. I assume that there are others out there who agree, like a magority of the population of the planet Earth.

I have not heard the CD but I believe that Mr. Youngs music is just asking you to stop and really think about it (Stop! Hey what's that sound? etc. comes to mind.. I digress).

If you are fine with everything after weighing the situation logically then great, I don't have a problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is when people bury their heads in the sand and refuse to listen to or look at anything that might, in the smallest way, shake their world view. As if ignoring the possibility that you are wrong makes that possibility itself impossible.... as if.

In the end good music should make you think and talk about what you are thinking. To that point I believe Mr. Young's CD is a success.....

but I am an atheist, pay no attention to me I am out to kill your children and eat them for supper.....

heh
Old 20th May 2006
  #82
Quote:
Originally Posted by GilWave
No need to bring Jesus into it.

-gil
You sure about that Gil?

At some point that is at the hart of the matter right? I mean not bringing Jesus into it, or religion in general is kind of ignoring the fact that many people in the Middle East do think of this as a holy war between Christians and Muslims. It is also ignoring the fact that "W" (Mr. Bush) has said he has been given a task by god make the world a better place.

I am not trying to poke at you directly Gil, you seem like a great guy. It's just that it kind of gets my goat when people invoke god to start wars and then ask you not to drag "his" name into it.
Old 20th May 2006
  #83
Here for the gear
 
flufhead's Avatar
 

I like the roughness of the mix which I think gets back to the original post! If I may quote myself "Rock and Roll is not pretty" and neither is this album. (as I am listening to it on the web) It dosen't sound like there is much production and I like that. Kinda like "Set up the mic's roll the tape and get out of the way" I am not pulled away from the lyric by some overly finger painted pro tools crap, just some honest rock and roll.

Well I for one will go out and buy this new Neil Young Album! I like the fact that Neil has enough balls to put out a new album on the net. As I think most bands should do, so I can listen to it befor I buy it.
Old 20th May 2006
  #84
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vernier's Avatar
Works for me too. The drums have a natural presence, true dynamics ..bass lays on the bottom and doesn't jut out, and the guitar/amp is other-worldly. And he does that voice quiver thing, like he's hurtin', like in Southern Man.
Old 21st May 2006
  #85
Gear Nut
 
Shlomo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by flufhead
I like the roughness of the mix which I think gets back to the original post! If I may quote myself "Rock and Roll is not pretty" and neither is this album. (as I am listening to it on the web) It dosen't sound like there is much production and I like that. Kinda like "Set up the mic's roll the tape and get out of the way" I am not pulled away from the lyric by some overly finger painted pro tools crap, just some honest rock and roll.

Well I for one will go out and buy this new Neil Young Album! I like the fact that Neil has enough balls to put out a new album on the net. As I think most bands should do, so I can listen to it befor I buy it.
Hell yeah! Some of the instruments sound so saturated and happy.

One single point of contention: Is anyone else appalled that the 200g vinyl is 33 frickin dollars? Even for 200g, that seems like about...$13 more than I'd ever pay for an album. How is that rock and roll?

Oh, maybe that's the part of rock and roll that isn't pretty.
Old 5th June 2006
  #86
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Just got the CD. Love the whole thing. Love the rawness, love the performance, love the songs. Greaaaaaaaat songs.
Old 5th June 2006
  #87
Jtt
Gear Addict
 
Jtt's Avatar
 

I though most of the album was pretty good. I liked 'Let's impeach the President', and Shock and Awe. Melodically the stuff is more interesting than most of what Young has put out in years.

Couldn't get over the triteness of "Looking for a leader". Very un-revolutionary and naive in its naming of names. Living in Ill, I'm very disappointed with Barak Obama's timidness and pandering as he contemplates a presidential run. (he is mentioned in the song.) Looking alot like how McCain has started looking--and not like a leader.

Anyway, I'd be willing to trade Canada Young for some pop icon citizen that we all could agree on: Brittney Spears perhaps?

-Jtt
Old 6th June 2006
  #88
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QUOTE
"And if the US is such a scurge, while the hell can't I get to my own beach right here at my own home at VA beach in the summer but for the Canadian tourists?"

What does that have to do with Neil's CD. Last time I visited Niagra Falls, Canada I met a whole lot more American's than Canadians. Who cares.
Old 6th June 2006
  #89
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themaidsroom's Avatar
 

to me the canada vs. u.s. plays rights into the hands of those who continually
want us to ignore the multinational corporations vs the people reality which is
ultimately the conflict that matters and the conflict that started this entire mess

the companies that armed sadam over the past thirty years
the companies that own the newspapers and television stations
that promote the story
the companies that will profit from the war, the clean-up, the
eventual peace, or being versatile, the continued war......

most of the people writing on this thread have more in common with middle
class canadians and iraquis than any of our political or business leaders -
the strangest thing in american politics since reagan (neil young was a big
reaganite) is the notion that someone who makes 30 million dollars a year
and someone who makes 35 thousand dollars a year will share an agenda.....
sadly, fear and hate and been the thread that so often stitch these very disparate
groups together......
the military defense contractor doesn't want you at his bar-b-q......
so many soldiers are soldiers because the republicans have virtually destroyed
all social spending and the subsequent oportunities.....they have coined a phrase
called "guest-worker" - legitmizing both our dubious role in mexican affairs over
the past 100 years and a current acceptable notion of racism and inequality.....

don't get me wrong, i have many neil young records, and i don't really support
the democrats - i believe noam chomsky is correct in his assesment that we
have two wings of the business party in this country - i also must confess that
the last neil young record i really liked was american stars and bars.......


see the al gore movie
pray with whatever faith you choose for a miracle
pray for money to lose its appeal


be well


- jack
Old 7th June 2006
  #90
Lives for gear
Very well said Jack.
Fear sells and were all buying.
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