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APOGEE - BIG BEN - Help ??
Old 12th May 2006
  #1
Gear Head
 

APOGEE - BIG BEN - Help ??

Hey guys this is my First post on here heh
was hoping I can get some help?

Ok so I got My Apogee Big Ben today and I have the BNC cable out from the
BIG BEN connected to my FIREFACE 800 word in & I have the prefrences of the fireface set to autosync to see the big ben everthing seems ok so far
I have a session in NUENDO open & im not noticing the difference in the sound quality that I heard at the studio where it was shown to me ,
Did I overlook something, am I doing something wrong ?
I just dont hear the difference
what is a good test I can do so I can hear the difference
in sound quality that I heard it do earliear on the same track ?

could really use some help guyz

Thanx
Old 12th May 2006
  #2
Lives for gear
 
ArcCirDude's Avatar
 

Not familiar with Nuendo but do you have the software synced to external clock and not internal?
Old 12th May 2006
  #3
Gear Head
 

Well Nuendo is synced to the RME FIREFACE 800 which is set to auto sync
to the BIG BEN so im not sure what im overlooking ?
I just dont hear the huge difference that I heard from the big
ben earlier ?

its prob sumthing really small that im overlooking if any of you know what that might be that would be great
Old 12th May 2006
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Rufuss Sewell's Avatar
You really only need Big Ben if you have lots of stuff you're trying to get to work all at once. I have two rosetta 800's and a Motu 2408 mk3 so I need a clock to get them to work together. Most people agree that if you're using one device, it's internal clock is the best choice.
Old 12th May 2006
  #5
Gear Head
 

Obviously it also make a huge difference in your AD/DA as well which is why I got the
BIG BEN in the first place altho the RME FIRECAE 800 is quite good
when clocked with the BIG BEN it sounded 10 times better no joke
it was Night and Day you can notice a complete difference in the Hi's & Lo's
but I cant seem to get it set up properly at my studio

So if anyone can tell me how to get it set up properly that would be great
I really cant understand why you guys are telling me to send it back
Old 12th May 2006
  #6
Gear Head
 

Can anyone else help me please ?
Old 12th May 2006
  #7
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synthoid's Avatar
 

>> the RME FIRECAE 800 is quite good
when clocked with the BIG BEN it sounded 10 times better no joke

there was something else going on that accounted for a 10x difference in sound. The chances of external clocking making an order of magnitude improvement in converters with decent internal clocking to begin with are like, 0.

Does the RME sound bad to you, or only no different when locked to the Big Ben?

-synthoid
Old 12th May 2006
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

When I got my Big Ben I contacted Apogee direct. They were happy to advise the best way to setup my system. You should email them.
Old 12th May 2006
  #9
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DrDeltaM's Avatar
 

The RME Fireface reclocks everything anyway

"The Fireface 800 is equipped with SteadyClock™, RME's unique sync and clock technology. With this, the device becomes a sync reference for the whole studio. SteadyClock refreshes clock signals, removes jitter, and takes permanent care of optimal conversion quality, thus guarantees a sensational sound quality, completely independent from the reference clock's quality."

More info at http://www.rme-audio.com/english/tec...teadyclock.htm

Last edited by DrDeltaM; 12th May 2006 at 01:07 PM..
Old 12th May 2006
  #10
Gear Head
 

I just got it to work seems that somehow it reverted back to Master
instead of auto Sync I noticed a huge diffrence in my sound now
everything seems tighter and my Hi's sound alot smoother and have more sparkle
and my Lo's sound heavier and have more punch this is exactly what I heard
earlier from the unit it just sounds far superior the RME's clock you notice
it right away

thanx for all your help guyz but I guess sometimes the best way to
learn a piece of gear is just trial and error
glad it work out in the end was starting to doubt it for a second thereheh
Old 12th May 2006
  #11
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synthoid's Avatar
 

any chance you could post something that A/Bs the RME against the RME+BB?



-synthoid
Old 12th May 2006
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell
You really only need Big Ben if you have lots of stuff you're trying to get to work all at once. I have two rosetta 800's and a Motu 2408 mk3 so I need a clock to get them to work together. Most people agree that if you're using one device, it's internal clock is the best choice.
I disagree with this statement, I found for example that a Rosendahl word clock device 'super sized' the sound of my stock Digidesign 888/24 interface.

People are buying WC boxes for a variety of reasons

1) To improve audio quality in their digital system - 'super size-ing' budget interfaces
2) To tie together all their digital devices to a central 'house' word clock (as you describe above)
3) All of the above..
Old 12th May 2006
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM
The RME Fireface reclocks everything anyway

"The Fireface 800 is equipped with SteadyClock™, RME's unique sync and clock technology. With this, the device becomes a sync reference for the whole studio. SteadyClock refreshes clock signals, removes jitter, and takes permanent care of optimal conversion quality, thus guarantees a sensational sound quality, completely independent from the reference clock's quality."

More info at http://www.rme-audio.com/english/tec...teadyclock.htm
Does this mean that the Fireface can not be externaly clocked?
Old 12th May 2006
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-NETIC
I just got it to work seems that somehow it reverted back to Master
instead of auto Sync I noticed a huge diffrence in my sound now
everything seems tighter and my Hi's sound alot smoother and have more sparkle
and my Lo's sound heavier and have more punch this is exactly what I heard
earlier from the unit it just sounds far superior the RME's clock you notice
it right away

thanx for all your help guyz but I guess sometimes the best way to
learn a piece of gear is just trial and error
glad it work out in the end was starting to doubt it for a second thereheh
Good news!

In my experience - clock settings some times just need a KICK - rebooting - switching too & FROM the settings - turning units ON and OFF etc - untill they somehow - settle down and decide to work..
Old 12th May 2006
  #15
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DrDeltaM's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
Does this mean that the Fireface can not be externaly clocked?
It can be slaved, has WC input and all. Question is what it does with the clocksignal however. According to RME, they reclock it to clean up jitter etc. I never tried clocking my Fireface externally yet, I'm happy with it the way it is
Old 13th May 2006
  #16
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM
It can be slaved, has WC input and all. Question is what it does with the clocksignal however. According to RME, they reclock it to clean up jitter etc. I never tried clocking my Fireface externally yet, I'm happy with it the way it is
Well ive had my FIREFACE 800 for almost a year now and Id say I know it pretty well
and after clocking it to my BIG BEN I noticed a huge difference
as if a wall was lifted away and eveything just cleared up
it was verry impressive, so if you have never tried it
then maybe you should give it a chance first before
giving it the thumbs down I gurantee you will be
quite impressed on the overall improvement
Old 13th May 2006
  #17
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM
The RME Fireface reclocks everything anyway

"The Fireface 800 is equipped with SteadyClock™, RME's unique sync and clock technology. With this, the device becomes a sync reference for the whole studio. SteadyClock refreshes clock signals, removes jitter, and takes permanent care of optimal conversion quality, thus guarantees a sensational sound quality, completely independent from the reference clock's quality."

More info at http://www.rme-audio.com/english/tec...teadyclock.htm

Right. So it makes you wonder how he reached the conclusion the Big Ben produced a gigantic "improvement." Here's my suggestion. Go back to the studio where you (he) heard the big difference. Set it up exactly the way you did. Listen. Oh boy, do you still hear the difference?

Hmmm... now let's see EXACTLY how much of a dfference it really is. I imagine you first listened on internal clock. Then you rewound and you listened on Big Ben clock. I think ANYONE can convince themselves of ANYTHING when they listen that way, especially if it's not blind. If you're convinced you're going to like one over the other, especially, the second listen will sound better, every time.

At the University of Miami, they teach students a lesson with "the red light trick". First you do a listen with the red light off. Then you do a listen with the red light on. Even if the two sources are identical, the listen with the red light on always sounds better! It's the way our brains are wired...

So, here's how apparently GIGANTIC differences can be reduced to reality. If this is an A/D, good, now you can do a REAL TEST instead of one that will fool you almost every time. Record the output of the A/D under both clocks to two different files. Now, listen to the two files, switching back and forth while under a single clock. OK, now, do you still hear a GIGANTIC difference? If it was the RME converter with its excellent jitter rejection, I wonder if you will hear any diference at all!
Old 13th May 2006
  #18
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DrDeltaM's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz
Right. So it makes you wonder how you reached the conclusion the Big Ben produced a gigantic "improvement."
To avoid confusion, this is G-NETIC's conclusion, not mine.
I haven't done the test with my Fireface, don't feel the need, it sounds fine, you can get great results with it imo.
Old 13th May 2006
  #19
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM
To avoid confusion, this is G-NETIC's conclusion, not mine.
I haven't done the test with my Fireface, don't feel the need, it sounds fine, you can get great results with it imo.
Sorry about that. I just picked the most convenient post to reply to!
Old 14th May 2006
  #20
Gear Head
 

MR katz this is one of the main reasosn that I got the BIG BEN
I buss out 10 channels of audio to an external mixer and back in again
to the fireface and I would always get phasing issues and
inaccurate recordings that would always be off set by a few miliseconds
which is a pain in the ass cause it will make your mix sound off balance
so I did the same thing with the RME clocked to the BIG BEN and
It was spot on not to mention it had more clarity to it
& that was more then enough to convince me
this is not a freakin Placebo for the studio
The Big Ben delivers some serious results maybe for those
of you who dont own one feel the need to justify yourself
by saying that it does not make it difference
sounds like you guys are stuck in Marketing Land
I am an actual consumer and im tellin you Flat out
it makes a Big difference & if thats not good enough for you
well then I dont know what else to say
You either try it yourself and see what im talkin about
or dont but if you have no exp on the unit then you have
nuthing to really contribute to this Thread because you dont
know what your talking about Nuff saidfuuck
Old 14th May 2006
  #21
16942
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-NETIC
MR katz this is one of the main reasosn that I got the BIG BEN
I buss out 10 channels of audio to an external mixer and back in again
to the fireface and I would always get phasing issues and
inaccurate recordings that would always be off set by a few miliseconds
which is a pain in the ass cause it will make your mix sound off balance
so I did the same thing with the RME clocked to the BIG BEN and
It was spot on not to mention it had more clarity to it
& that was more then enough to convince me
this is not a freakin Placebo for the studio
The Big Ben delivers some serious results maybe for those
of you who dont own one feel the need to justify yourself
by saying that it does not make it difference
sounds like you guys are stuck in Marketing Land
I am an actual consumer and im tellin you Flat out
it makes a Big difference & if thats not good enough for you
well then I dont know what else to say
You either try it yourself and see what im talkin about
or dont but if you have no exp on the unit then you have
nuthing to really contribute to this Thread because you dont
know what your talking about Nuff saidfuuck
First of all G-netic do you have any idea who Bob Katz is?
He has forgotten more about digital audio than you will ever know. As has Dan Lavry who has written a white paper on the subject explaining why when you are clocking a single audio interface any properly designed internal crystal will have less jitter and the Fireface fits that.

Secondly I tested the Fireface clocked by the Big Ben and it did not improve the sound IMHO.

You are certainly entitled to believe in what you heard. And Bob is certainly entitled to tell you why he thinks you are wrong.

You owe him an apology.
Old 14th May 2006
  #22
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashermusic
First of all G-netic do you have any idea who Bob Katz is?
He has forgotten more about digital audio than you will ever know. As has Dan Lavry who has written a white paper on the subject explaining why when you are clocking a single audio interface any properly designed internal crystal will have less jitter and the Fireface fits that.

Secondly I tested the Fireface clocked by the Big Ben and it did not improve the sound IMHO.

You are certainly entitled to believe in what you heard. And Bob is certainly entitled to tell you why he thinks you are wrong.

You owe him an apology.
I do know who Mr Katz is and I respect his work furthermore
im not tryning to step on anyones toes

& as fas as an apology I dont feel I owe anyone an apaoplgy for just
trying to explain how I feel about the Big Ben and how its improved my
AD/DA so im not apologizing to anyone to anyone
altho I do appriciate the different points of veiw on the matter
did not know it would crate such an uproar
well im satisfied now so thank you everyone for your help
Old 14th May 2006
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-NETIC
I do know who Mr Katz is and I respect his work furthermore
im not tryning to step on anyones toes

& as fas as an apology I dont feel I owe anyone an apaoplgy for just
trying to explain how I feel about the Big Ben and how its improved my
AD/DA so im not apologizing to anyone to anyone
altho I do appriciate the different points of veiw on the matter
did not know it would crate such an uproar
well im satisfied now so thank you everyone for your help
You don't owe anyone an apology. Never let anyone tell you what you are hearing. I did the same thing with a 192 interface and a big ben. The big ben was at the bottom of my list of things to get, but I ended up getting one the next day after hearing it. They can claim that there is no difference all they want, or that there is something wrong with the interace etc. But it all comes down to your ears.

For me, it was night and day just like you. It was something that made everyone in the room stop and asked what happened. Whatever explination people want to give is fine with me. As long as it sounds good, I don't care. ;-)
Old 14th May 2006
  #24
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyclueless
You don't owe anyone an apology. Never let anyone tell you what you are hearing. I did the same thing with a 192 interface and a big ben. The big ben was at the bottom of my list of things to get, but I ended up getting one the next day after hearing it. They can claim that there is no difference all they want, or that there is something wrong with the interace etc. But it all comes down to your ears.

For me, it was night and day just like you. It was something that made everyone in the room stop and asked what happened. Whatever explination people want to give is fine with me. As long as it sounds good, I don't care. ;-)
Good to know im not alone here
much respect man
Old 14th May 2006
  #25
Lives for gear
i own both a big ben and a fireface 800. there is a difference when the fireface is clocked to the big ben. i wouldn't say that it is extremely drastic but is definitely preferable. i've had blind listening test with other producers and engineers on several occassions and we could all tell when the ff was being clocked to bb or not. don't really care what the numbers say...i use these pieces every day and trust my ears. for the record i also have a 192, an ad16x a da16 and a trak 2. i've done a lot of experimenting over the years in trying to tweak my setup and think i'm pretty familiar with how the sound at this point. I'm very happy with the bb clock.

ej
Old 14th May 2006
  #26
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DrDeltaM's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz
Sorry about that. I just picked the most convenient post to reply to!
np!
Old 14th May 2006
  #27
16942
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyclueless
You don't owe anyone an apology. Never let anyone tell you what you are hearing. I did the same thing with a 192 interface and a big ben. The big ben was at the bottom of my list of things to get, but I ended up getting one the next day after hearing it. They can claim that there is no difference all they want, or that there is something wrong with the interace etc. But it all comes down to your ears.

For me, it was night and day just like you. It was something that made everyone in the room stop and asked what happened. Whatever explination people want to give is fine with me. As long as it sounds good, I don't care. ;-)
Neither Bob nor I said that anyone was not hearing an improvement if that is what they think they are hearing. Nor does Dan Lavry. He merely states that whatever perceived improvement there is is not due to reduced jitter, which is theoretically the only tthing a clock like Big Ben is supposed to bring to the table AFAIK.

Bob was surprised that the perceived improvement would be as drastic as G-netic described and POLITELY suggested further more scientific tests. The reason that G-netic owes him an apology is not because he is right or wrong but because of the rude disrespectful way he responded to Bob's very polite post.

If a person is secure in their opinions they don't feel the need the respond to a polite challenge with a hostile reply. If they are not secure in their opinions then perhaps they should not be posting them in the first place.
Old 14th May 2006
  #28
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashermusic
Neither Bob nor I said that anyone was not hearing an improvement if that is what they think they are hearing. Nor does Dan Lavry. He merely states that whatever perceived improvement there is is not due to reduced jitter, which is theoretically the only tthing a clock like Big Ben is supposed to bring to the table AFAIK.

Bob was surprised that the perceived improvement would be as drastic as G-netic described and POLITELY suggested further more scientific tests. The reason that G-netic owes him an apology is not because he is right or wrong but because of the rude disrespectful way he responded to Bob's very polite post.

If a person is secure in their opinions they don't feel the need the respond to a polite challenge with a hostile reply. If they are not secure in their opinions then perhaps they should not be posting them in the first place.
There was nothing rude about his post what so ever and he was nothing BUT polite. In fact I would be completely surprised if Bob even saw is as offensive. And this is an informal forum were people speak freely. Many people insult others yet when you feel Bob is insulted, you demand an apology? While Bob is a highly respected person, is he somehow above everyone else to you in how he should be treated? I would imagine he feels he should be treated just like everyone else, and I imagine he is confident enough in himself to not be offended by someone elses opinion even if it was stated in a rude way (which this is not the case). Obviously you mean well, but I can't help but feel you are trying to kiss up to Bob a little too much, even if it's not intentional.

But the best thing about this field is that usually no one dies at the end of the day. :-)
Old 14th May 2006
  #29
Word clock auditions.... hmmm I find them best done with a golden eared chum for company.. makes it more fun.. trying to describe the differences to each other with words..
Old 14th May 2006
  #30
16942
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-NETIC
I do know who Mr Katz is and I respect his work furthermore
im not tryning to step on anyones toes

& as fas as an apology I dont feel I owe anyone an apaoplgy for just
trying to explain how I feel about the Big Ben and how its improved my
AD/DA so im not apologizing to anyone to anyone
altho I do appriciate the different points of veiw on the matter
did not know it would crate such an uproar
well im satisfied now so thank you everyone for your help
The reason you owe him an apology has nothing to do with whether you are right or wrong. It is that he responded to you politely with constructive suggestions and you responded rudely. He deserves better whether or not you agree.

If you are confident of your opinion you do not need to respond with hostility and if you are not then perhaps you should not post it.
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