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Favorite Summing Buss - Based On Experience
View Poll Results: Please Choose Favorite Summing Buss - Based On Experience Only
API 8200a / 8200 + 7800
16 Votes - 7.44%
Audient Sumo
8 Votes - 3.72%
Dangerous 2-Bus / Mixer / 2-Bus LT
18 Votes - 8.37%
innerTube Audio Atomic Sumthang
5 Votes - 2.33%
Nautilus Commander
0 Votes - 0%
Neve 8816
6 Votes - 2.79%
Phoenix Nicerizer / Nicerizer 16
17 Votes - 7.91%
Roll Music RMS216 Folcrom (please post mic pre)
19 Votes - 8.84%
SPL MixDream / MixDream XP
20 Votes - 9.30%
Tube-Tech SSA 2A / SSA 2B
9 Votes - 4.19%
Boutique Audio Inward Connections
2 Votes - 0.93%
Chandler Limited Mini Rack Mixer
4 Votes - 1.86%
Manley 16x2 Mixer
6 Votes - 2.79%
Shadow Hills GAMA Deluxe Summing Mic Pre
5 Votes - 2.33%
Speck X.Sum
4 Votes - 1.86%
Tonelux TXP 16X2
10 Votes - 4.65%
Internal DAW Buss
20 Votes - 9.30%
External Digital Console
3 Votes - 1.40%
Large Format Analog Console
32 Votes - 14.88%
Cranesong Spider
4 Votes - 1.86%
Self constructed summing bus
7 Votes - 3.26%
Voters: 215. You may not vote on this poll

Old 13th May 2006
  #31
Lives for gear
 
GP_Hawk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by echo unit
Charlie,

Your entire existance has been based on selling Pro Tools systems for digidesign

because of you, many folks spent endless hours (years) attempting mixing inside a computer. Recording on way overpriced interfaces with substandard analog to digital conversion using a virtual mixing board screen and computer software emulations of real analog audio equipment that use artificial intelligence to mathematicaly approximate something which is real and full of natural random varience. Not only this but you turned many people onto a particular brand of these software emulations made by the company Waves who likely paid you to do so. Waves made the most awful sounding version of the emulations out there which in turn helped a lot of folks in degrading the audio they had recorded in the first place.

Before you published those Mix it like a record ITB articles maybe you should have considered what you were saying.

An out of work digidesign salesman is like music to my ears.

Why in god's name are you even talking about summing outside of a computer?

It goes against all that you have preached in your articles to ask this question here an now.

Are you just discovering now that a computer is not a mixing desk and that mixing desks actually have a purpose besides underpaid engineers playing with all the knobs buttons and lights to impress overcharged clients?

Charlie, since you are such an authority on mixing surely you can tell all of us which the best analog summing box is.


Or let those who know what they are doing enlighten you:

Neve 80 series console!


fuuck
My echo unit is producing much noise!! Must eliminate noise Bad noise!
Old 13th May 2006
  #32
I have a limited experience with quality busamps but I like:
Neumann PSVe (warm and elegant)
BFE 1175 (clean and precise)

Mr. Katz, a question please.
I'm one hair away from buying an API 3214+MB
because the pres are nice but especially for the busamp.
It's a totally different sound than the civilised stuff, like mentioned above.
Maybe you or someone else knows if this is comparable to an API console (legacy) busamp as far as sonics are concerned?
Attached Thumbnails
Favorite Summing Buss - Based On Experience-bfebussamp.jpg  
Old 13th May 2006
  #33
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptil
I have a limited experience with quality busamps but I like:
Neumann PSVe (warm and elegant)
BFE 1175 (clean and precise)

Mr. Katz, a question please.
I'm one hair away from buying an API 3214+MB
because the pres are nice but especially for the busamp.
It's a totally different sound than the civilised stuff, like mentioned above.
Maybe you or someone else knows if this is comparable to an API console (legacy) busamp as far as sonics are concerned?
I don't know. Look for the 2520 and a transformer. API modules in the consoles come in two types, one with a smaller transformer and I think a different opamp. It would be fun to build a color box with a half dozen 2520's in series and their input/output transfomers, and switches to bypass one or all of them to see the effect.

But what if some of the magic is in the crosstalk between channels in the actual console? Leakage through grounds and radiation in the fader section? A pair of modules, with an isolated power supply, would not supply that crosstalk. There's a lot to be played with. Open your mind to the possibilties!
Old 13th May 2006
  #34
thank you for the lightning fast reply!
you're fast heh

what a shame 2520s aren't sold seperately.
a bunch of them, in my DIY console would be great.
(probably that is why they're not sold seperately )

anybody compare the tonelux and api bus yet?
the thread of Roundbadge really sparked my interest in "that" rock n roll sound.
probably it is too early.

excuse me for thinking out loud.
Old 13th May 2006
  #35
Lives for gear
 
SoundEng1's Avatar
My Protools HD system patched into my API 8200's and 7800 master section sounds pretty awesome to me.
Old 13th May 2006
  #36
Lives for gear
 
Mind-Over-Midi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundEng1
My Protools HD system patched into my API 8200's and 7800 master section sounds pretty awesome to me.

I was just over at his place and I have to agree awesome sound, nothing lacking the 8200's and 7800 gives that "album sound" everyone is looking for, of course his rack is outstanding as well, Lit'l Freq's, QuartetII, Great River, Trakkers, etc.



Old 13th May 2006
  #37
Lives for gear
 
FMNYC's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz
If you want character, I vote for the API, it has some magic in it, based on my experience with API consoles. I'm not kidding. The magic is called distortion, but who cares what you call it if it sounds good! By the way, nudge nudge, wink wink----99.99% of the character has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact you are analog summing. It has to do with the analog circuitry, API's discrete opamps, transformers, their architecture If you hear a widening, an improvement over the digital summer, all my objective tests have indicated that it's the analog distortion doing its work. u

you know, that's really interesting to me as an 8200A owner.
i have noticed that the more tracks i route to the API the better it sounds, it's almost like it likes it when things are on the heavier side of track counts.

this, of course, is a completely rookie type of observation, i lack the skills and experience of folks like Mr. Katz to actually qualify my opinion.

cheers!

FM

FM has just returned from a succesful tour of Latvia, Petrovia and The Lower Ukraine.
Old 13th May 2006
  #38
Of the current list i've owned:

Boutique Audio and Dangerous.


And i've used extensively:

API,Folcrom(with Buzz mic pres) and Amek CIB system.


My favorite of the bunch?

Choice Z...an analog console.

Running a mix through the whole console makes the multi tracks sound closer together(one whole sound) than sticking on something at the end of it summing 16 channels.

My 2 cents.
Old 14th May 2006
  #39
FX smörgåsbord user
 
Charles Dye's Avatar
 

UPDATE:

Awesome!!!!

Jules has allowed us to have more choices. So, if you wanted to vote for some of the stuff that wasn't on the list before, now it hopefully is.

Including:
  • Boutique Audio Inward Connections
  • Chandler Limited Mini Rack Mixer
  • Manley 16x2 Mixer
  • Shadow Hills GAMA Deluxe Summing Mic Pre
  • Speck X.Sum
  • Tonelux TXP 16X2
  • Internal DAW Buss
  • External Digital Console
  • Large Format Analog Console
Thanks, Jules!!

So, please place your vote if you did a "write-in" before.
Old 14th May 2006
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
Amek CIB system.
Hi Thrill

By any chance did you run audio through the Amek CIB 32 sum set up Rob Darling put together in NYC a few years back?

Old 14th May 2006
  #41
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz
But what if some of the magic is in the crosstalk between channels in the actual console? Leakage through grounds and radiation in the fader section?
In a situation such as that would there be phase differences created between channels? In summing box comparisons, when I hear one I like it usually seems to have a cross-phasiness thing happening that pushes the image outside of and behind the speakers.

-R
Old 14th May 2006
  #42
Lives for gear
Pair of STT-1 Origins following a pair of Folcroms.

I've tried Quartet II's, MP-2NV, MP-2MH, TG-2, MA-2.2, X-81's. None were even close to the vibe of the STT-1's for this function. I found Mullards to be the best STT-1 input amplifier tubes.
Old 14th May 2006
  #43
FX smörgåsbord user
 
Charles Dye's Avatar
 

UPDATE 2:

Jules has added two more options:
  • Crane Song Spider
  • Self Constructed Summing Buss
Thanks again, Jules!!
Old 14th May 2006
  #44
Lives for gear
 
andre tchmil's Avatar
 

List mine as well please heh heh heh heh heh

Old 14th May 2006
  #45
wow andre that looks nice.
I was planning something like that, maybe with a switch for different output transformers.

Can you elaborate on what you did exactly? are those pcbs from a router or a desk?
I found some cards like that, different make though. are yours NTP? (locking mechanism looks simular)
Very COOL thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup
Old 14th May 2006
  #46
I use Fulcrom - with API pre's -
Into Cranesong STC-8 compressor
Into Cranesong Hedd @ 96k / 24 bit (with some Tape & Pentode process)
Into Masterlink @ 96k / 24 bit

But I have yet to try Chandler TG2 pre's on it and I have yet to try my new Benchmark ADC-1 A/D converters

I have a feeeling in my bones that I will like...

API pre's
STC-8
Benchmark ADC-1 conversion
Hedd Tape & Pentode process

& I think the younger engineers here will like
Chandler TG2
STC-8
Hedd Tape & Pentode process

But we will see!
Old 14th May 2006
  #47
Lives for gear
 
andre tchmil's Avatar
 

Card was pulled out of an audio server/mixer/CPU thing.
I bet none of the above mentioned summers has THAT much Iron in it, exdept for the Nicerizer maybe.heh
Gonna build in different line amp outs from Neumann, NTP and Telefunken, all selectable with a simple switch.


I have one more of these cards for sale, should someone be interested.
Old 14th May 2006
  #48


here's mine:
Attached Thumbnails
Favorite Summing Buss - Based On Experience-ntp-512-120d-2.jpg  
Old 14th May 2006
  #49
I'm toying with the idea of doing a 16 ch dynamics unit using it.
An idea of Rafafred (he lives on prodegy), who has the same cards.
but, that is for much later.
Old 14th May 2006
  #50
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Now that we've added the "Large Format Console" option into the poll, it doesn't really make much sense.

Are there really any engineers out there that "prefer" the sound of a summing box to a "Large Format Console."

I guess some people have never mixed on one before, but then again, should they really even be allowed to vote?
Old 14th May 2006
  #51
Gear Nut
 

Have the fulcrom here and have tried ;
1272
portico
api 512
pendulum audio mp-1
apogee trak2

I picked the pendulum audio....it was the widest and had the best
balance of top and low end.....and when you push-it it gives you great
distortion (kind of like the new killers cd)thumbsup
Old 15th May 2006
  #52
FX smörgåsbord user
 
Charles Dye's Avatar
 

Thanks for posting your Folcrom mic pre choices guys. Glad to hear everyone's comments. And thanks for your votes.

Would love to see more comments.

(also shameless post weekend bump)
Old 15th May 2006
  #53
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
thumbsup

And remember there is a thing called the ignore button that will let you skip all posts from a member...... I'm just saying....

wait, WHERE IS THIS BUTTON?


gregoire
del ubik
Old 15th May 2006
  #54
Gear Nut
 
foxyloxy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz
The most neutral one I've heard has been the Sumo. Based on compartive files sent in by clients. But ho hum, who wants neutral? If I'm mixing rock, I want character. You can't get character in the box, at least not with the digital summing bus alone. Add some analog outboard to your digital system and you can get great results still mixing "ITB" or even with a digital console, in my opinion. I've also done some objective tests that really seem to point to that conclusion.

Does this mean I'm against analog summing? Not at all. Just pick the summer that has the sound character you like.

If you want character, I vote for the API, it has some magic in it, based on my experience with API consoles. I'm not kidding. The magic is called distortion, but who cares what you call it if it sounds good! By the way, nudge nudge, wink wink----99.99% of the character has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact you are analog summing. It has to do with the analog circuitry, API's discrete opamps, transformers, their architecture If you hear a widening, an improvement over the digital summer, all my objective tests have indicated that it's the analog distortion doing its work. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with saying that. But it does point out that a couple of API modules on the output of your digital summing bus might provide the same results and be a lot cheaper. The sooner that people get out of the mindset that there's something wrong with digital summing and into the mindset that they are looking for "character", the sooner that so many of the purist summers will disappear.

An objective test at matched gains and pans with the Sumo revealed that it is tremendously transparent. Sounded no better or worse than the digital summing bus. Ho hum. Proves there's nothing wrong with digital summing other than that it may be very boring.

Someone should do a shootout, as objectively as possible to prove or disprove the test of two API modules on a digital sum. I'll bet you the modules make it sound better, wider, clearer, EVEN on the stereo output of the digital summer. As soon as you discover that, it should make you question a lot of assumptions.
Given that the color/character/'magic' comes from the analog modules like the API's, does it not make sense to have a more neutral summing box at the end of the chain, with all the color in between (API's, Fatso, Neve etc..)?
I have a Sumo fed by 16 channels of Lynx D/A conversion and having discovered that my mixes sound no better or worse than those digitally summed, I'm now left with selling my body as the quickest means to afford what's now on my newly extended shopping list....heh
Old 15th May 2006
  #55
Lives for gear
 
funka's Avatar
So will you get rid of your sumo?
What have you decided?...
Old 15th May 2006
  #56
Gear Nut
 
foxyloxy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by funka
So will you get rid of your sumo?
What have you decided?...
No, it interfaces very nicely with my Lynx Aurora, both being 16 channel units with D-Sub connectors. It has decent AD converters so I can use it to feed my Masterlink at 96Khz. I also find the built in mix compressor quite useful (plus it has mix inserts, pre or post dynamics). What I will do is try out various options to go in between the Aurora and the Sumo, like a Thermionic Culture Phoenix, Drawmer 1968, Fatso etc.
I will definitely go out and hire a couple of API modules as Bob Katz suggested, stick them across the mix buss and see what it does to my mixes.

Much of the music that I record/mix is very 'pure & clean' - i need some warmth and color. As a transparent & neutral unit, the Sumo will be fine if I get the right combination/choice of outboard in there somewhere.
Old 15th May 2006
  #57
Lives for gear
Even with compressors and EQ's downstream of the preamp, I would suggest that a preamp with the right warmth/vibe is a huge plus. I have plenty of units available for the mix bus, but I still found that I couldn't get the right feel without the STT-1's (in tube mode).

I'm not trying to push the STT-1's; maybe they won't work for you. But my point is that I can not get the vibe/feel/warmth I want in the mix w/o using the preamp to help with this, in addition to other units on the mix bus. With a clean preamp, I couldn't compensate enough with units like 33609JD, 1081's, EQ-2NV, Red 3, L2M, HEDD, etc. With the STT-1's, things really came together. Often now I have Red 3 and L2M and HEDD, possibly with an EQ, downstream of the STT-1's.

Just me experience.
Old 15th May 2006
  #58
FX smörgåsbord user
 
Charles Dye's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike H
... vibe/feel/warmth...
VFW... a new audio forum acronym.
Old 15th May 2006
  #59
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

If you're gonna say large format analog console, shouldn't you say which one?

I sold my Trident 24 and haven't looked back.

-R
Old 15th May 2006
  #60
FX smörgåsbord user
 
Charles Dye's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
If you're gonna say large format analog console, shouldn't you say which one?
Sure. thumbsup

To all, please post which analog console is your pref.
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