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Last minute changes in a big mix
Old 10th May 2006
  #1
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Last minute changes in a big mix

O.K., so you've got the 100-track pop extravaganza in PT 7 with delay compensated RTAS and TDM plugins everywhere AND a fat master channel, and...

The client says the mix is "perfect...except..." you just need to dub in ONE VOCAL!!!

How do you do it?
Old 10th May 2006
  #2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

How do you do it?

Add one more track, record it, process it with the rest of the chain, bounce it down, good night.


Or:


Bounce everything down how you have it...open it up in a new session...add as many track as you need...blend it...your done.

Last edited by thethrillfactor; 10th May 2006 at 10:06 PM..
Old 10th May 2006
  #3
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picksail's Avatar
 

Temporarily deactivate a few of of the ancillary tracks that aren't essential for overdubbing the vox.

Add a new track and press record.

After which, you'll have to be crafty in terms of how you reactivate certain plug-ins

Greg, I miss 'Evelen'
Old 10th May 2006
  #4
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

I've done this enough times, and it turns into a hassle because of timing issues (and DSP issues if the mixing engine is maxed out).

If you have serious plug-ins on the master bus, the delay coming back from PT is completely unworkable.

What I end up doing is making a master 3-4 and moving the plugins over to it. Sort of a dummy master channel.

But then turning off delay compensation is a different issue -- drums start flamming & phasing, etc. because of parallel compression busses and mixed RTAS + TDM plugin chains (PT 7).

As if that's not enough, I always feel I have to go the extra mile on timing issues to reassure myself that what the artist sings/plays ends up in proper time alignment on playback. What do you do when a veteran session player looks at you and says, "that's not what I played" after you hit the space bar? I haven't had that happen in a long time, but it certainly happened when I first got into PT and was running a mixer alongside a PT rig (long story).

Bouncing is a great choice for overdubbing a stack of vocals. If it's just one musical phrase you're dropping in, bouncing, closing, making new session, tracking, reopening the master session (on plug-in intense sessions, this can take a while), and importing the new track (hope you didn't burn all your DSP on the original mixdown) can optimistically be a 15-minute process -- not that long, until they say "can we try something else. Not that long, unless the next client is waiting. And if plug-ins bumped the track around, you'll be pulling the 2-track into the master to figure out the offset -- or nudging timing until the overdub "feels" right. No fun.
Old 10th May 2006
  #5
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picksail's Avatar
 

Do you have L3 on the Master?

If so deactivate it and should be fine.


How much DSP is available? HD3 @44.1k?
Old 10th May 2006
  #6
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Bat Head Sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano
I've done this enough times, and it turns into a hassle because of timing issues (and DSP issues if the mixing engine is maxed out).

If you have serious plug-ins on the master bus, the delay coming back from PT is completely unworkable.

What I end up doing is making a master 3-4 and moving the plugins over to it. Sort of a dummy master channel.

But then turning off delay compensation is a different issue -- drums start flamming & phasing, etc. because of parallel compression busses and mixed RTAS + TDM plugin chains (PT 7).

As if that's not enough, I always feel I have to go the extra mile on timing issues to reassure myself that what the artist sings/plays ends up in proper time alignment on playback. What do you do when a veteran session player looks at you and says, "that's not what I played" after you hit the space bar? I haven't had that happen in a long time, but it certainly happened when I first got into PT and was running a mixer alongside a PT rig (long story).

Bouncing is a great choice for overdubbing a stack of vocals. If it's just one musical phrase you're dropping in, bouncing, closing, making new session, tracking, reopening the master session (on plug-in intense sessions, this can take a while), and importing the new track (hope you didn't burn all your DSP on the original mixdown) can optimistically be a 15-minute process -- not that long, until they say "can we try something else. Not that long, unless the next client is waiting. And if plug-ins bumped the track around, you'll be pulling the 2-track into the master to figure out the offset -- or nudging timing until the overdub "feels" right. No fun.
are you using an analog console at all?
Old 10th May 2006
  #7
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Yeah, deactivate tracks.

I brought this up for discussion 'cause it happened recently, but I'm not in the middle of a big mix/vocal project right now.

Day-to-day I don't use an analog console. I'm freelance, so it has been known to happen...

HD3 @ 44.1k is a lot of DSP. Also, PT 7 lets you mix/match RTAS and TDM, which means there's REALLY a lot of DSP available. I should do a screenshot of some of my mixes, though. It can get crazy really quickly. I've been known to eat up an HD3 accel's TDM power AND run the CPU up 2/3 or more on a G5.

Last edited by Gregg Sartiano; 10th May 2006 at 11:19 PM..
Old 10th May 2006
  #8
Gear Nut
 

If someone wants to overdub something it shouldn't have been sent to be mixed in the first place. Look at the producer and tell him he's a dick, then get up and leave, telling him to call you when he's ready to have the song mixed!fuuck Or you can just suck it up, and do what everyone said.heh
Old 11th May 2006
  #9
Sheesh! And folks were griping about Mix + systems...tutt
Old 11th May 2006
  #10
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

O.K., Andy, what if a) you agree it's a good idea, and b) it IS a good idea.

Or what if you're co-producing. Then do you get pissed at YOURSELF and walk out 'cause you didn't get it 100% right the first time out?

I mean, I've seen major A & R's tweak mixes/parts. Are you gonna tell them "no?"
Old 11th May 2006
  #11
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u b k's Avatar
 

i'm with thrill, bounce the whole mix, bring it into a clean session and do your dubs and comping there.

now you've got at least 3 options:

1) add fx to the dub and blend it with the bounced 2mix from the big session.

2) add fx and mix as above, mute the bounced 2mix, bounce just the dub with fx, re-open the big session, import the dub, set its fader, bounce.

3) import the raw dub into the big session, add fx and mix it there.

which way you go depends on how much of a purist you want to be, and how much dsp you've got left.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 11th May 2006
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano
O.K., Andy, what if a) you agree it's a good idea, and b) it IS a good idea.

Or what if you're co-producing. Then do you get pissed at YOURSELF and walk out 'cause you didn't get it 100% right the first time out?

I mean, I've seen major A & R's tweak mixes/parts. Are you gonna tell them "no?"

As long as you are mixing in a DAW(especially PT) the projects will always be left to the whims of the suits.


Face it in their minds they think like this "if i can do at home on my computer why shouldn't i be able to do it at your studio?".


The DAW guys that created the studio market as it is today at the hand of the traditional console/tape based studios will have to live with the results and demands that have come from it.
Old 11th May 2006
  #13
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

I'd 99% of the time do option #3.

If the overdub is substantial, you could possibly get into the whole "can we solo the overdub against just the rhythm section" thing. Too much fun.

I'd love to see the all-analog crowd jump in right now. At least this kind of s&*t is POSSIBLE in digital.

Another thing -- who else here tests PT by sending clicks (or drums) out and back in? They ALWAYS track later. It's like everything's shifting 1 ms later after you record it.
Old 11th May 2006
  #14
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nobtwiddler's Avatar
It's all bul****~!

Personally...
I'm so tired of this ****...
I've just spent 9 days of MY life on a mix, making adjustments, last minute overdubbing vocals, tambourines, fixing pitch, timing, triggers, etc...
TRUST ME, nothing that will not make a diiference in anyones life.
All stupid ****.
And why.....only because you can!

NO ONE IS WILLING TO MAKE decisions anymore, with the advent of computer recording and the unlimited possibilities available, sessions go on forever...
Now they are asking for stems...so that they might be able to change things in mastering??
This is after everyone loved the mixes in the studio...

Am I the only one that thinks this is just plain STUPID?
I'm so done with this ****...

Good, I've got that off my chest...
Time for a beer.
Paul
www.millbrooksoundstudis.com
Old 11th May 2006
  #15
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indie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nobtwiddler
....NO ONE IS WILLING TO MAKE decisions anymore, with the advent of computer recording and the unlimited possibilities available, sessions go on forever...
......www.millbrooksoundstudis.com
OH MAN,
I couldn't possibly agree with you more!!!!
Most people are sheep...scared sheep.
Old 11th May 2006
  #16
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by picksail
Greg, I miss 'Evelen'
I introduced my Fender bass and my 1073 to Evelen (Ms. seventy-six). She's over 30 years old, but they get along great. Here's the sound:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/70019-check-low-quot-e-quot.html

Last edited by Gregg Sartiano; 11th May 2006 at 05:35 AM..
Old 11th May 2006
  #17
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paterno's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano
O.K., so you've got the 100-track pop extravaganza in PT 7 with delay compensated RTAS and TDM plugins everywhere AND a fat master channel, and...

The client says the mix is "perfect...except..." you just need to dub in ONE VOCAL!!!

How do you do it?
Make a 'slave' --- print the mix as is, create a new session, import the stereo mix into it, create a new track, record the vocal, import the vocal track back into the master session, print final master mix, grab a Scotch...

JP
Old 11th May 2006
  #18
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano
I'd love to see the all-analog crowd jump in right now. At least this kind of s&*t is POSSIBLE in digital.
How is NOT possible on analog?

As long as there's an open track, you plug a mic in...arm track, press big red button.

No plug-in delays to compensate for. No plug-ins to move around....what's the problem?!?



I gotta' wonder though...if there's ALREADY 100+ tracks on there...what good is one more? Why?!?

Like Paul said...can't anybody commit anymore?! There's gotta be a few of us still out there...the "dinosaur production" folks!
Old 11th May 2006
  #19
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs
How is NOT possible on analog?

As long as there's an open track, you plug a mic in...arm track, press big red button.

No plug-in delays to compensate for. No plug-ins to move around....what's the problem?!?
I guess it's not a problem, if your intern can find the recall sheets...
Old 11th May 2006
  #20
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano
I guess it's not a problem, if your intern can find the recall sheets...
You trust interns with that kind of highly classified information?!?

I dunno man, on one of the last all-analog records I did I was pretty much "done" with a mix when I was reminded that a couple of vocals needed to be flown from one chorus to another.

Great...

Somehow we ALL forgot about that until the bass player or someone else (not the singer, he wasn't there!) noticed it.

I'm not gonna' lie & say it was fun...but it was entirely possible & I didn't have to scrap the mix or anything like that. Just added about an hour to the deal.
Old 11th May 2006
  #21
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if you're in the MIDDLE of the mix, then it doesn't need ot be recalled, it's still up on the desk.

You make another track and overdub and you're done.

but, frankly, is there a record with 100+ tracks in PT mixed in the box that sounds great?

it's that "because we can" thinking...

you may be right that you couldn't or wouldn't do all that on analogue.

So?
that may yet another good thing to say about analogue then!
Old 11th May 2006
  #22
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman
but, frankly, is there a record with 100+ tracks in PT mixed in the box that sounds great?
I've done some 100+ track songs -- drum tracks, samples under drums (some in stereo), stacked backgrounds, multiple stereo keyboards & sound FX, double-or triple mic'd guitars/amps, doubled vocals, live strings, percussion (some stereo), stereo loops...it adds up.

I wonder if Shipley/Mutt/Shania...any of those songs are 100+ tracks...

Last edited by Gregg Sartiano; 11th May 2006 at 07:29 AM..
Old 11th May 2006
  #23
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picksail's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano
I've done some 100+ track songs -- drum tracks, samples under drums (some in stereo), stacked backgrounds, multiple stereo keyboards & sound FX, double-or triple mic'd guitars/amps, doubled vocals, live strings, percussion (some stereo), stereo loops...it adds up.

I wonder if Shipley/Mutt/Shania...any of those songs are 100+ tracks...
The single I just produced was over 120+ tracks, seventy-five of which were guitars.

What's the problem?

You're doing fine G!!!!
Old 11th May 2006
  #24
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano
I'
I wonder if Shipley/Mutt/Shania...any of those songs are 100+ tracks...
I wonder if any of them are less than 100 tracks.
Old 11th May 2006
  #25
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs
You trust interns with that kind of highly classified information?!?
No, I mix ITB except for a few analog inserts, which I print at the end.
Old 11th May 2006
  #26
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman
it's that "because we can" thinking...

you may be right that you couldn't or wouldn't do all that on analogue.

So?
that may yet another good thing to say about analogue then!
If we could have a world without digital audio (recording, mixing, OR distribution), I'd be the first in line. While we're at it, let's have a world without AIDS and global warming. Or "volume wars" - style mastering.

When 4 tracks wasn't enough, technology was bumped up (rather quickly) to 8, then 16, then 24, then two 24-track machines sync'ed together (along with MIDI instruments/samplers) running into 96-channel boards -- this is over a period of 20 or so years (not that long). In fact, it could be argued that *applied* recording technology actually advanced more between '66 and '86 then between '86 and '06 -- you just needed a bit more BUDGET in '86 than you do in '06.
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