The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Kids prefer vinyl - loudness war responsible?
Old 13th May 2006
  #61
Old 13th May 2006
  #62
Lives for gear
 
Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

I always thought it would be cool to start an indie-rock vinyl club night in L.A. -- 3 to 5 bands (one night a month) with a DJ spinning rock records in between -- and a big merch table with everything from Goodwill and Salvation Army/thrift store turntables to $2 classic rock records poached from craigslist LP sell-offs. If it was enough of a "scene," the vinyl mentality might become self-perpetuating, at least within the local cognoscenti. Anybody -- feel free to steal this idea...please...and PM me when you get the club started.
Old 14th May 2006
  #63
Lives for gear
 
Benmrx's Avatar
 

Quote:
So wouldn't this somewhat negate your commentary?
Uhhh.....not really. I have an ipod too. I like to listen to music in my car, as do most people.......even if they prefer vinyl.

Mix tapes are fun, you give them to friends, great on road trips.

But very different than sitting down and listening to a record. This is what I'm talking about. Anyone that I know that still actually "listens" to records prefers vinyl. Not using music as a backround effect for some other activity.
Old 15th May 2006
  #64
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benmrx
Anyone that I know that still actually "listens" to records prefers vinyl. Not using music as a backround effect for some other activity.
Sarcasm: You mean people actually used to listen to records... like just to enjoy the music?


Ahhh, the good ol' days. It's just us left now.
Old 18th May 2006
  #65
Gear Maniac
 

In the news: RIAA BREAKTHROUGH

Music Industry Unveils New Piracy-Proof Format:

A Black, Plastic Disc With Grooves On It

Music bosses have unveiled a revolutionary new recording format that
they hope will help win the war on illegal file sharing which is
thought to be costing the industry millions of dollars in lost
revenue. Nicknamed the 'Record', the new format takes the form of a
black, vinyl disc measuring 12 inches in diameter, which must be
played on a specially designed turntable'.

"We can state with absolute certainty that no computer in the world
can access the data on this disc," said spokesman Brett Campbell. "We
are also confident that no-one is going to be able to produce pirate
copies in this format without going to a heck of a lot of trouble.
This is without doubt the best anti-piracy invention the music
industry has ever seen."

As part of the invention's rigorous testing process,the designers gave
some discs to a group of teenage computer experts who regularly use
file swapping software such as Limewire and gnutella and who admit to
pirating music CDs. Despite several days of trying, none of them were
able to hack into the disc's code or access any of the music files
contained within it.

"It's like, really big and stuff," said Doug Flamboise, one of the
testers.

"I couldn't get it into any of my drives. I mean, what format is it?
Is it, like, from France or something?"

Invention: Teenage computer hackers struggled to access the new disc.

In the new format, raw audio data in the form of music is encoded by
physically etching grooves onto the vinyl disc. The sound is thus
translated into variations on the disc's surface in a process that
industry insiders are describing as 'completely revolutionary' and
'stunningly clever.'

To decode the data stored on the disc, the listener must use a special
player which contains a 'needle' that runs along the grooves on the
record surface, reading the indentations and transforming the
movements back into audio that can be fed through loudspeakers.

Even Shawn Fanning, the man who invented Napster, admits the new
format will make file swapping much more difficult. "I've never seen
anything like this," he told reporters. "How does it work?"

Pirates: Their days are numbered.

As rumours that a Taiwanese company has been secretly developing a 12
inch wide, turntable-driven, needle-based, firewire drive remain
unconfirmed, it would appear that the music industry may, at last,
have found the pirate-proof format it has long been searching for.
Old 18th May 2006
  #66
Gear Nut
 
Shlomo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by logiclust
In the news: RIAA BREAKTHROUGH

Music Industry Unveils New Piracy-Proof Format:

A Black, Plastic Disc With Grooves On It
Haha! That's great. It's got The Onion written all over it.
Old 18th May 2006
  #67
Lives for gear
 
7 Hz's Avatar
Some of you come across as very patronising old men:

"The Kids" just do it because of a trend. "The Kids" don't have a clue.

Name me one thing about music that ISN'T trendy please... Also, if you think "The Kids" don't have a clue, then it is YOU, sir, that doesn't have a clue. Maybe you just need to hang out with some inteligent kids for a while, or maybe even try to remember what it was like when you were one!

Now we could rattle on for days (weeks? years? search the forum!) about analogue vs. digital, sound quality, blah blah. I don't think thats the whole point, or possably even the main point.

The point is (and it has been expressed many times in this thread) that vinyl is a tangable physical object that people enjoy owning. Vinyl is more 'art' than 'product', in almost every sense of the word. It's more tactile, more collectable, more fun, MORE EVERYTHING! CD's are a blight on the landscape, cheap throwaway plastic that anyone can create on their $300 PC. Vinyl has magic, it's simple yet mysterious. Vinyl feels better (compare carefully slipping a 12" out its sleeve as opposed to trying to wrestle a cheap CD out of that even cheaper stupid bulky-yet-fragile jewel-case). Vinyl is human, get it dusty and it sounds dusty, scratch it and it will click. CD is 0's and 1's, get them dirty or scratched and they just stop working. ZZZzzzz

It's not that one is better than the other, but that they are so different, about the only similarity is they contain music and artwork.

CD's will be replaced. Some will be collectable, most will be garbage. Vinyl will outlive CD many times over, both as a format, and as a medium, and as something people want to have.

Is vinyl perfect? NO! That is the beauty of it.

Original and best.
Old 18th May 2006
  #68
Lives for gear
 
waxx's Avatar
 

the reason i have tons of vinyl is, i'm a dj and vynil is way easier to handle and works faster to mix than cd's. I can play with cd players like the pioneer cdj or the denon s5000, but still swear by my 20year old technics sl1200's

but vinyl also has disadvantages, like the weight of it (ever lifted a flightcase with 250 lp's in it)
Old 18th May 2006
  #69
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcballs
I find it hard to believe that kids in general would like vinyl for the sound quality since they are primarily the ones ripping off the industry downloading MP3's and not even noticing the relatively poor sound quality.

It's funny... lots of my buddies (mid 20's, mostly) are all about their HD TV's and projectors and all that crap but only listen to (stollen) music off their f'n ipods. Even after paying good money for some descent speakers - surround, for their DVD's, of course - and a receiver/amp, they still just plug it into their ipods or computers. Sorry for the tangent - I'm just really bitter about people downloading music for free.

I don't doubt that true music lovers might prefer the sound of vinyl, but in general, I'd say kids who like vinyl probably just think it's cool. I think that's great though... I remember when buying CD's was cool, too.

Personally I think vinyl is cool, too, although I prefer the clarity convinience of CD's. I own a few of my favorite records on vinyl, even though I don't even own a record player !

McBalls

I think the thing is -- there are more than one kind of "kids"... there are the people like the frat boys who just moved out from next door (Praise be!)... there were two musicians who lived there (out of how many people passing through, I don't know). But you almost never heard them playing music, live or otherwise.

Always the TV. And, far as I could tell, they had a TV in every room -- including a MONSTER flat panel in the L.R. Absolutely huge. So many TV's they actually had what looked like a 32" LCD TV over the sink in the kitchen.

When they moved (just down the street I'm told, good luck to their new neigbors -- these guys had NO CLUE how to behave around civilized people) they drove off with a load of furniture and left the garage door open with one guy's drum set -- a nice, expensive one but with WAY too many drums -- just sitting in the open garage for, like 45 minutes. Rich kids. Easy come, easy go. I guess.


But THOSE doltish yobbos (and though they were all in college you wouldn't believe how STUPID their conversations were -- real sub-dood, stuff) are really NOTHING much like most of the young people I know -- or at least the ones I get to know. I've been hanging around in odd places with odd people so long that filtering out people is completely second nature.

Most of the 20-somethings I pal around with -- many of whom are NOT in college but have 10 times the apparent intelligence of my former neighbors -- have a real sense of the last half century of music. Their knowledge tends to be spotty, for sure. They might know all there is to know about Nick Drake or Sid Barrrett or Billy Holiday but are only vaguely aware of, say, 3 Dog Night -- but -- really -- that's not a bad thing. heh
Old 18th May 2006
  #70
Here for the gear
 
deaddeaddead's Avatar
 

whatever... trends come and go, but the records stay.
personally, i can appreciate good sound quality, but almost by definition, diy punk doesnt strive for good sound quality! thats not what got me into vinyl anyway. in the old days, i couldnt find punk/hardcore records on cd, so i had to get a record player to hear a lot of my favourite bands. plus theyre cheaper, the artwork is bigger, and diy inserts and packaging makes it more personal. in all my years of collecting records, ive never bought the same record twice due to damaging it, but i used to end up buying my favourite cds 3 or 4 times cause theyd get busted up.
Old 18th May 2006
  #71
Lives for gear
 
max cooper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benmrx
Uhhh.....not really. I have an ipod too. I like to listen to music in my car, as do most people.......even if they prefer vinyl.
Right on.

I prefer vinyl over CD, but when it comes right down to it, if I had to listen to music over a tin can and a piece of twine, I'd do it.
Old 18th May 2006
  #72
Here for the gear
 
wimme's Avatar
 

Hot Topic (the "punk" store at the mall [gee, that's a contradiction in terms if I ever heard one!]) sells LP's.



they kept it alive as did the dance scene...
Old 18th May 2006
  #73
Lives for gear
 

Slightly OT, but slightly not. As I mentioned earlier, my wife found my old LP collection. All the records I've ever bought since grade 1. I still have perhaps 20% of the CDs I've ever bought - if that. So I have to agree with you guys about the disposability of the format.

As far as piracy, I truely don't believe it's the format. I believe piracy is a problem of content as well as "the times". Everyone I know has 500 mp3's on their HD that they don't listen to. But all of the music lovers I know BUY the CDs. Not for any altruistic reasons - simply because they're a fan of music and a fan of the artist - they WANT to own the cd.

I honestly believe that the decline of record sales is primarily due to the competion for the entertainment dollar (XBOX etc) and less interest in music all together (for a myriad of reasons). I believe most of the illegal downloads would have never translated into sales if it were unavailable for free.
Old 18th May 2006
  #74
Lives for gear
 
mixerguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats
.... (you)... I believe most of the illegal downloads would have never translated into sales if it were unavailable for free.
I disagree.

If you look at the # of ipods sold - and the number of songs sold by online music sellers (such as apple music store) it works out that, on average, each ipod should have approx 20 songs on it.

How many folks do you know that have 20 songs on their ipod?

ok so maybe folks are ripping CD's they own.... but ..... no- folks are still stealing music left, right and center.

Old 18th May 2006
  #75
Lives for gear
 

Well I'm not saying people don't steal music - I'm saying that the majority would not have bought it if stealing was impossible. When I was a kid, the only "tapes" I had were of material I wasn't that interested in. If I was into the band, I wanted to own the album.

What would be interesting to see is the sales figures for LPs before and after the introduction of tape duplication. The difference in the decline compared to today will give you a good idea how much revenue losses are due to stealing and how much are due to other factors.

I think we'd be quite surprised.
Old 19th May 2006
  #76
Lives for gear
 
Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kats
Well I'm not saying people don't steal music - I'm saying that the majority would not have bought it if stealing was impossible.
We don't need to see a "majority" -- CD sales (U.S.) have gone down 20% in 5 years after an extended period of growth. When was the peak? Right before Napster and mp3.com and cheap CD burning (why do people not mention this as much as DL'ing?). Coincidence or not?

Within 2 years (2002/2003), all the big players were merging, downsizing, and cutting corners (and development budgets), as well as diversifying in an attempt to at least survive.

And the general public at large and the creative music community may hate the big players, but it is their ability to launch artists that makes popular music, well, popular. Not only that, but thousands upon thousands of career creative people (incl. veteran engineers!) have for generations built careers around plying their craft with the expectation of it having a certain market value -- with majors being the only game in town when it comes to footing those kinds of bills. And the CUSTOMER DEMAND still exists for the product, there just isn't the MONEY STREAM anymore. THAT'S criminal.

I don't have to tell you that a) it's a vicious cycle which leads to more and more pandering, banal radio music (since taking chances and building artists are vestiges of a bygone era), and b) PT/ITB production exacerbates this problem, since A & R's can now wait for finished product to cross their desks, instead of giving development deals to interesting artists whose budget limitations keep them from shopping release-ready recordings.
Old 19th May 2006
  #77
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
We don't need to see a "majority" -- CD sales (U.S.) have gone down 20% in 5 years after an extended period of growth. When was the peak? Right before Napster and mp3.com and cheap CD burning (why do people not mention this as much as DL'ing?). Coincidence or not?
Which also coincides with a dramatic change in youth culture - connectivity, chat rooms, xbox's - IE a virtual reality. I'm not trying to defend unlawfull duplication of music (I'm 100% against it) - I am wondering though.....

Shouldn't this collapse in record sales have happened in the late '70s when cassette tape duplication of LPs was available to everyone and anyone? Why didn't it? This leads me to think that there are other and more significant reasons the music industry is having problems today.
Old 19th May 2006
  #78
Lives for gear
 
Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kats
Shouldn't this collapse in record sales have happened in the late '70s when cassette tape duplication of LPs was available to everyone and anyone? Why didn't it?.
Tape duplication requires discipline and a passing knowledge of home audio fundamentals -- it costs $$$, it has to be done in real time, there's generation loss (so duplicates of duplicates sound progressively worse)...the list goes on.

Oh, yeah -- can you say "3000 songs in the palm of your hand?"
Old 19th May 2006
  #79
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano
Tape duplication requires discipline and a passing knowledge of home audio fundamentals...
everybody i've ever know knew how to make a mixed tape. And if people really cared about generation loss they wouldn't be listening to 160k mp3s...

now, how much have blank cassette sales dropped off since cdr came about?
Old 19th May 2006
  #80
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Tape duplication requires discipline and a passing knowledge of home audio fundamentals -- it costs $$$, it has to be done in real time, there's generation loss (so duplicates of duplicates sound progressively worse)...the list goes on.

Oh, yeah -- can you say "3000 songs in the palm of your hand?"
No way - anyone that owned a cassette deck knew how to dup. Christ, they used to dupe off the radio. It takes more knowledge to set up a PC, get an on-line account, set up a napster"ish" account, save/file/and burn than to plug the red cable into the red jack and the white cable into the white jack heh

As far as "3000 songs in the palm of your hand" goes - how many people did you know own 3000 songs in the vinyl days? Few - which says to me that people are d/ling stuff they would never have bought in the first place.

Anyhow, I'm being a bit of the "devils advocate" - but things don't seem to wash for me . It seems people are blaming one issue (which really has been with us for 30 years) and don't have the ability to accept the bigger issues.
Old 19th May 2006
  #81
Here for the gear
 
deaddeaddead's Avatar
 

i say all who want to whine about major labels losing profits to piracy start a capitalist theory thread because it has nothing to do with music. paying for music doesnt "feed a musician" like the ads claim, it feeds media giant's wallets.
Old 19th May 2006
  #82
Gear Addict
 
tommymakestapes's Avatar
 

cd cases are too small. with LP's they're plenty of room to break up my
Old 19th May 2006
  #83
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kats
... plug the red cable into the red jack and the white cable into the white jack heh ...
you forgot "hit the record button." That's the part that always kept people away from cassette tapes .
Old 19th May 2006
  #84
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommymakestapes
cd cases are too small. with LP's they're plenty of room to break up my
try it on an ipod shuffle....
Old 20th May 2006
  #85
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Hz
Some of you come across as very patronising old men:

"The Kids" just do it because of a trend. "The Kids" don't have a clue.

Name me one thing about music that ISN'T trendy please... Also, if you think "The Kids" don't have a clue, then it is YOU, sir, that doesn't have a clue.

I agree... it's been painful to hear the makers of music having such disrespect for their audience. And if anyone can name a money source that's not tied to trend I'm all ears.


There is no ONE group of "kids" ... some are into Vinyl for sound, some for cool factor, some for reasons they can't articulate, some are not into records at all ... but it's a big world out there. People are still unique and some think for themselves, as much as any of us can.

To lose track of that individuality and respect for our audience, is the death of creativity inside us.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deaddeaddead
i say all who want to whine about major labels losing profits to piracy start a capitalist theory thread because it has nothing to do with music. paying for music doesnt "feed a musician" like the ads claim, it feeds media giant's wallets.
That's a myth that allows many to download with a clean conscience. Fact is downloading and copying hurts everyone.

Artists

Top Quality Studios

Freelance Engineers

and yes, the congolmerate Evils.



Not to mention that theft is bad karma ... so it hurts the thief.
Old 20th May 2006
  #86
Quote:
Originally Posted by waxx
the reason i have tons of vinyl is, i'm a dj and vynil is way easier to handle and works faster to mix than cd's. I can play with cd players like the pioneer cdj or the denon s5000, but still swear by my 20year old technics sl1200's

but vinyl also has disadvantages, like the weight of it (ever lifted a flightcase with 250 lp's in it)
What about response on the dance floor? Do you find you get more people dancing and for longer perids of time when you play vinyl vs CD?
Old 20th May 2006
  #87
Lives for gear
 
Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by logiclust
everybody i've ever know knew how to make a mixed tape. And if people really cared about generation loss they wouldn't be listening to 160k mp3s...

now, how much have blank cassette sales dropped off since cdr came about?
Are you really saying that tape duping was even in the same league as "sync"-ing an iPod -- I mean, have you seen the way iPods fly out of Apple Stores in every f&*'n mall? iPod + internet = unlimited music is the equation the general public understands. How many times have you been in the studio needing to reference a popular track and had somebody say, "let's download it" -- never "do you have an iTunes account so we can buy it?"

Combine this with iTunes/computer based recreational listening and 48x no-brains-required CD duping and you've got one heck of a paradigm shift.

If you're on GS, you're by definition more audio aware than the general public, which means that your friends probably were, too. I don't think teenagers in the 80's thought of stacks of Maxells that cut off in the middle of your favorite song while you were duping 'em quite the same as fashion-colored iPods.
Old 20th May 2006
  #88
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano
If you're on GS, you're by definition more audio aware than the general public, which means that your friends probably were, too. I don't think teenagers in the 80's thought of stacks of Maxells that cut off in the middle of your favorite song while you were duping 'em quite the same as fashion-colored iPods.
my pears tend to not be very technical... i (for the most part) had to teach them how the whole downloading mp3s, ipod thing works... forget about bittorrent, hotline, usenets, etc. But my mother could make a tape. Of corse cassette dubs never occured at the same volume as mp3 swapping, my point was that if either had a technical hurdle, it would absolutely have to be mp3s. Even going it through propper channels to buy mp3s is a pain in the ass. to this day, many of the people I know still have no idea how to obtain free files.
Old 21st May 2006
  #89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano
Are you really saying that tape duping was even in the same league as "sync"-ing an iPod -- I mean, have you seen the way iPods fly out of Apple Stores in every f&*'n mall? iPod + internet = unlimited music is the equation the general public understands. How many times have you been in the studio needing to reference a popular track and had somebody say, "let's download it" -- never "do you have an iTunes account so we can buy it?"

Combine this with iTunes/computer based recreational listening and 48x no-brains-required CD duping and you've got one heck of a paradigm shift.

If you're on GS, you're by definition more audio aware than the general public, which means that your friends probably were, too. I don't think teenagers in the 80's thought of stacks of Maxells that cut off in the middle of your favorite song while you were duping 'em quite the same as fashion-colored iPods.
There are far more cassette decks than iPods.

Due to the simplicity of sharing songs, I'm sure the average kid shares more songs today than 20 years ago. i ahve no idea if the average recipient of the shares songs listens to the same percentage of the songs they are given.
Old 7th August 2007
  #90
Gear Head
 
drfacehead's Avatar
 

Some of these comments are terrible. I don't know a heck of a lot about GEAR, but I know a lot about this topic. And I can tell you that there are some weiners out there making the absolute most ridiculous assumptions. The "indie revolution"? Whoever said that is living inside of a very small television that only plays MTV and VH1. There is no indie revolution. What is that anyway? A bunch of Hot Topic kids that smoke cigarettes outside of gym class? There is no stupid revolution. Stop trying to put a spin name on very simple ideas like teenage dorks or cool music kids etc.

Also, for the people who complain about high vinyl prices, you are buying major label vinyl. What do you expect? They are ONLY in it for the bottom line. That's it. Stop buying crappy releases if you don't like paying $35 for 2 LPs in the same sleeve. Most small labels that actually ARE punk labels, and not majors posing on the format, actually DO CURRENTLY sell their 2XLPs for $12 postage paid. Because they make music and not money. Imagine that. Somebody who isn't trying to screw you.

This is what absolutely cracked me up reading about the Foo Fighters pressing only 5,000 copies on vinyl. Because they are HUGE and I know there are bands that you have (and I mean NONE of you) have ever heard of that have sold more than 5,000 records on LP within the last year. And they prolly don't WANT soundscan so somebody can jack up their image and rape them into a crappy contract to exploit their music and sell it for $35 at Hot Topic because....ummmm...they're already set. No thanks guy in the suit. We don't need your loan check with a dildo attached to it ready to rape me on the back end of this.

Oh yeah, vinyl sounds better.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump