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Kids prefer vinyl - loudness war responsible?
Old 11th May 2006
  #31
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bunnerabb's Avatar
Okey doke.

It wasn't really important , anyhoo.

Discussion is never as important as who "wins".
Old 11th May 2006
  #32
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i post on a vinyl trading message board called vivalavinyl.org
theres probably over 5,000 people posting on there, almost everybody is there for punk/diy records. theres probably 4 or 5 new threads made every minute. ****s booming. vinyl has deep roots in indie music and i can't see any format replacing vinyl anytime soon.
Old 11th May 2006
  #33
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bunnerabb
Okey doke.

It wasn't really important , anyhoo.

Discussion is never as important as who "wins".
Not trying to do that to you. All I'm getting at is that I don't think it's the 1's and 0's that's bugging you so much as the user interface. A lot of people resent the fact that the nuts and bolts of working on a DAW resembles a video game as much as anything. It's certainly less 'romantic' than working on a big, sexy board. That's why all the recording school ads feature people sitting in front of big, sexy boards. It's iconic. It sells.

In fact, I'm sure for many people seeing a PT screen is a vibe-killer, esp. if they've been sitting under a tree with an acoustic guitar trying to come up with heartbreaking songs for two months. And they're paying for the privilege...it's a necessary evil, at the very least. Then, if (he/she/they) walk into a room with a tape deck and a board, they know that the engineer CAN'T f*&k with the artistic vision beyond what those tools can do, so they proceed with a different kind of connection to the music and confidence that the musical statement will reach the listener unfettered...until they realize that sometimes Auto-Tune >IS< a good thing...

If a project was being done on a 24-track multitrack tape deck hidden in a closed room and you just had some controllers in front of you for it (and your assistant would switch reels, cut tape, etc.), it wouldn't matter if it was digital or analog.

Last edited by Gregg Sartiano; 11th May 2006 at 09:46 PM..
Old 11th May 2006
  #34
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bunnerabb's Avatar
I think you're first lapse in translation came when you assumed that something was "bugging me". It is what it is. Sexy boards? Means f**k all. Sexy to whom? Some kid who'll never see the inside of Oceanway and couldn't care less?

My notion is that the entire shift from things that had a 1:1 ratio for ownership and useful (i.e: close to lossless) copy capability and had the actual physical alterations to the medium that made it the record you drooled over at Peaches, and turning music into one more endlessly reproduceable digital dog and pony show - ALTERED the way in which people not only physcially interfaced with the product but viewed the content therein.

mp3 files are laying arond like pog caps and treated the same. That is the idiomatic and cultural ramifications of the digitisation of music, IMHO. Not some geezer bemoaning his "sexy" t0ob amp.

YMMV

Last edited by bunnerabb; 11th May 2006 at 10:00 PM..
Old 11th May 2006
  #35
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bunnerabb's Avatar
The thing is consumer side, for me. Not the recording industry. The industry uses whatever.

I'm talking about how Billy and Betty-Ann Bloke have come up with viewing music and recorded music product as a whole different tin of biscuits from what this industry still believes they have to sell.

{still can't type}

Last edited by bunnerabb; 11th May 2006 at 10:01 PM..
Old 11th May 2006
  #36
Gear Head
 

hmmmm..

If a record was originally mixed and mastered for and released on vinyl then there is a certain fascination in hearing it as its authors intended.

That said it's also great to have weird beatles stereo mixes to be able to get "inside" the music a bit.

Besides all of this, it's so great to be able to go to a thrift shop, market, charity shop, house clearance, auction, ebay etc etc etc and discover music which absolutely no one has told you to buy! One off 45's, test records, loads of interesting things. Amazingly well made old records, that have never achieved classic status, but from which it's possible to learn a huge amount about sound.
Old 11th May 2006
  #37
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picksail's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labs
werd.

Dont be such an old fart Pick...

Gustav
Huh?

I think you have it backwards Gustav.

If I were endorsing the 'old fart' ideology then I would be for the whole 'vinyl' trip.

I think it's silly.

There is a direct lineage from Grand Master Flash to That 70's Show.

Progress.

As for the whole loudness war issue, we all need to distinguish between art and corporate interest. Makes the job much easier. It's about competative product.

I'm not implying that all music consumers are mudane and myopic, but I think the 'loudness war' is only one facet of the macro-problem.

Last edited by picksail; 11th May 2006 at 10:54 PM..
Old 11th May 2006
  #38
Gear Addict
 

I find it hard to believe that kids in general would like vinyl for the sound quality since they are primarily the ones ripping off the industry downloading MP3's and not even noticing the relatively poor sound quality.

It's funny... lots of my buddies (mid 20's, mostly) are all about their HD TV's and projectors and all that crap but only listen to (stollen) music off their f'n ipods. Even after paying good money for some descent speakers - surround, for their DVD's, of course - and a receiver/amp, they still just plug it into their ipods or computers. Sorry for the tangent - I'm just really bitter about people downloading music for free.

I don't doubt that true music lovers might prefer the sound of vinyl, but in general, I'd say kids who like vinyl probably just think it's cool. I think that's great though... I remember when buying CD's was cool, too.

Personally I think vinyl is cool, too, although I prefer the clarity convinience of CD's. I own a few of my favorite records on vinyl, even though I don't even own a record player !

McBalls
Old 12th May 2006
  #39
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robot gigante's Avatar
I love finding old records that never achieved 'classic' status as well. There is a lot of amazing music out there that never made it to CD, that's for sure.

Anyway, I think bunneraab nailed it with the mp3's/pog caps comment.

That and I hope that the trend continues no matter what the reason for it is because I like getting new releases on vinyl... I only have a modded Thorens turntable- haven't made it to the realm of the mega hifi audiophile stuff (probably won't either) but it still makes for much more enjoyable listening and to me better and clearer sound than CD's, even the ones that aren't super limited.

I agree, downloading music for free sucks- at least the trendy kids are paying for their music!!
Old 12th May 2006
  #40
Lives for gear
 

Vinyl never went away! It may have seem that way for the corperate types who switch with the trend (Industry Standard), but it never left. What really happen was the Japanese (among others) came from overseas and wrote fat checks to all the major record chains/warehouses and cleared them out in the 80's. Only to turn around and sell them for crazy profit 15-25 years later. Now i'm not talking about the Herb Albert's Qudraphonic LPs, but the heavy stuff. Motown era, King, Blue Note, Groove Merchant, ABC Impulse, etc.

Also, I gotta say I disagree with a lot of you who think it's strictly trend. Slowly but surely people are wising up to the fact that theres something magic about analog mediums. They reproduce a more robust, full, soulful (feel) sound. I never bought CD's or bought MP3's because I always felt that I was getting ripped off. It's like, why would I invest my dollar to rent virtual memory? Bytes that I'm renting. I never dug that concept. Who remembers the,
"Tired of your vinyl skipping, the answer is CD!" mantra. dfegad

I bet the Industry wishes tape dubbing was there biggest problem these days.

Last edited by GL Respect Due; 12th May 2006 at 07:47 AM..
Old 12th May 2006
  #41
Gear Head
 

All the nostalgic crybabies whining because of their various investments into pressing gear, analogue, consoles, and thermaclime-controlled storage rooms for their master tapes and pressings should simply write down all their complaints and reasoning why tape and vinyl is better than digital in a handwritten letter using a quill and inkwell. Then replicate the letter 10-20 thousand times (writing each copy, no digital photocopier allowed) stick em and lick em into envelopes and send it via snail mail carrier postal service to everyone's home or business address on this site.


Why?

Because the personal interaction experience that we'll all get with your handwritten letter is more artistically and visually rich...

Your words are more educationally and emotionally superior in ink on paper than replicated in the cold realm of 0's and 1's on a computer monitor...



LOL!

"I keeeding you... I joking... I jest"
heh



Good God already...
Everything in business and commerce evolves. (Bigger/Smaller, Better, Faster, Smarter, Cheaper...)

As Kevin Spacey's character in "Swimming With Sharks" so eloquently stated

"...Way it goes..."


I'll see you at the gym, you'll recognize me as the one in headphones, dragging around the 33 1/3 player on the red Radio Flyer wagon.

I agree that SOME "KIDS" (very limited DJ-Scratch market) may prefer Vinyl... But try to make it your sole living and the rest of us will drop a quarter in your cup the next time we pass you sitting on the street corner.





s
Old 12th May 2006
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synapse
Everything in business and commerce evolves. (Bigger/Smaller, Better, Faster, Smarter, Cheaper...)
...but vinyl still sounds richer and has better definition than CDs. But I will allow that a well done vinyl pressing transferred directly to CD on a stand alone burner sounds pretty decent, too.
Old 12th May 2006
  #43
Lives for gear
by what is an mp3 worse than a worn out vinyl single played back on a 30 bucks plastic gadget that was in every kid's room of the late 60ies?
there are always low end and high end customers.

when there is another vinyl trend among some subculture, thats a nice thing!
some artists can get some "real" and "honest" flair, when they have a release on vinyl, just with a live band and little processing. some may even sound very pleasant this way..
Old 12th May 2006
  #44
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Originally Posted by synapse:

"Everything in business and commerce evolves. (Bigger/Smaller, Better, Faster, Smarter, Cheaper...)"

I agree everything in business and commerce evolves.. however, I don't think that in all cases it evolves for the better. From a business perspective, it'd be unwise of me to not press CD's - regardless of my philosophy. So in the end, i'm ultimately forced to buy into the hype in order to get paid. I press quite a bit of wax too, for the collectors and true connoisseurs.. though a great deal of my sales ultimately come from CD.

Btw. Theirs nothing nostalgic about prefering vinyl to CD. I just prefer whichever medium gives me the best playback, which in all cases is vinyl.
Old 12th May 2006
  #45
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bunnerabb's Avatar
Quote:
by what is an mp3 worse than a worn out vinyl single played back on a 30 bucks plastic gadget that was in every kid's room of the late 60ies?
Well...


... Somebody PAID for the 45.

:D
Old 12th May 2006
  #46
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pounce's Avatar
 

i recently bought a decent direct drive turntable and really good preamp just to transfer some old records, and frankly just listen to them a bit. i freaking love it, but part of that must be my own nostalgia. otoh, some of them sound very nice (others sound like crap, but there you go).
Old 12th May 2006
  #47
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Benmrx's Avatar
 

Quote:
It's all part of the indie revolution
So when did this revolution start?

by my calculations....I'de say over 10 years. It's nothing new. By '95 both Built to Spill and Modest Mouse were making some pretty rad "indie rock", and that's just what was going on the northwest.

Quote:
SOME "KIDS" (very limited DJ-Scratch market) may prefer Vinyl
I've never hung out in the "DJ-Scratch" crowd, glad to see those guys/gals still prefer vinyl too.

I'm thinking much more in the indie-rock crowd, which "indie-rock" can mean pretty much anything these days, as it's become big business now and is a decent chunk of the music industry. It never "hit" like grunge did, and I don't think it ever will, but it's a massive market now.

I firmly believe the "trend" will be mp3 downloads and vinyl...just give it a year or so. Since I can get whatever music I want as an mp3, I've stopped buying cd's, why would I need two different ****ty ways to listen to music. I'll stick with the one that's most convenient. However, anytime an album comes out that I really like, I'll do my best to find it on vinyl.

Quote:
lots of my buddies (mid 20's, mostly) are all about their HD TV's and projectors and all that crap but only listen to (stollen) music off their f'n ipods.
It really is amazing, cause most of my buddies (mid-20's), could never afford an HDTV, projector, etc.....but they do have an ipod.......oh yeah, and most of 'em are buying vinyl, and transferring it on to their computer to put in their ipods. Pretty much the same way you used to make "mix tapes". But then again, these are people that (like myself) still enjoy sitting down and listening to an entire record while eating dinner, playing cards, hanging out, etc. instead of watching americas next top model.

Funny who really drives the industry.
Old 13th May 2006
  #48
Gear Head
 

As more and more people get the latest mpX-enabled cell phones and vehicle audio systems... Yes, the "mp3 trend" will be the thing.

It is far far more profitable to produce an mp3 for immediate sale and on-demand download. No warehousing, no jewel case, no liner and cover prints, no shelving, no multi-property leases, etc. Just a single location, hard drive storage, a web site and internet connection needed for mpX delivery.

What will we be discussing a couple more years from now?

Which company delivers the best mpX catalogue... Verizon, Cingular, Sprint, iTunes?
Which company's cell phones delivers the best quality audio and has the largest storage capacity?
Which mpX format delivers the truest and most sonically-pleasing quality?

Add in Location Based Services and Exact End-User targeted marketing to that mix ... fuhgedaboutit...

"Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'."
-- Bob Dylan






s
Old 13th May 2006
  #49
Gear Head
 
troublejr's Avatar
 

what it is

well im a young guy, 22 years old, and a collector of vinyl. it really has nothing to do with quality (to an extent). i see a lot of people in the same situation as engineers knocking on the the digital world, and claiming thier devotion to tape and it will never sound the same. who cares? it may sound better, it may not.

for me it's a legacy. my first vinyl was given to me by my mother- old rock records and what not. then i started buying and collecting vinyl only releases. there's a lot of great records that you can only buy on vinyl. of course you can probably download them, but for me packaging means a lot. then there's the legacy of owning a rock record pressed in the 70s, the original product. i love that.

that's about it.

-t
Old 13th May 2006
  #50
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picksail's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benmrx
... and most of 'em are buying vinyl, and transferring it on to their computer to put in their ipods. Pretty much the same way you used to make "mix tapes".
So wouldn't this somewhat negate your commentary?
Old 13th May 2006
  #51
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Funny, my wife just found my old record collection that I thought was trashed a decade ago. Now I have to get a turn tableheh

The first record I ever owned - The Beatles "Long Tall Sally" is still there in all it's scratched glory and crayon scribblings that I inflicted on it in grade one!

Anyhow, about this debate - I'm really curious to hear vinyl again, it's been years. But I do remember when CD's came out - it was a 100% improvement compared to the rigs we had to playback our LPs. Dollar for dollar, I still think the average guy will have a better playback system in the digital realm - that's got to count for something, eventhough the ultimate analogue system might blow away the ulitmate digital system. Yes/No?
Old 13th May 2006
  #52
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robot gigante's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats
Funny, my wife just found my old record collection that I thought was trashed a decade ago. Now I have to get a turn tableheh
Yeah, get a decent one, and then I think your questions will be answered.
Old 13th May 2006
  #53
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bunnerabb
My notion is that the entire shift from things that had a 1:1 ratio for ownership and useful (i.e: close to lossless) copy capability and had the actual physical alterations to the medium that made it the record you drooled over at Peaches, and turning music into one more endlessly reproduceable digital dog and pony show - ALTERED the way in which people not only physcially interfaced with the product but viewed the content therein.
I completely agree. Stevie Wonder said that early Napster-style downloading would make music "[as worthless as the trash in the street]" (it's been a while since I read that quote).

Dammit, kids can go to a public library in ANY city in the U.S. (or other places) and spend their summer days reading the classics. Or they could TAKE THEM HOME with them. And they don't, by and large.

S&*t, now I'm turning this into "you can lead a horse to water..."
Old 13th May 2006
  #54
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flufhead's Avatar
 

Well does this mean that I have to replace all my cd's with records? Good thing I still have my Yamaha direct drive turntable

ps. Does anyone remember the conversion van craze and seeing turn tables suspended from bungie cords... now that was really 10 second anti skip protection. btw anyone got a match pack I can slip under the
8-track thumbsup "Keep on truckin baby"
Old 13th May 2006
  #55
Gear Nut
 
Shlomo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcballs
I find it hard to believe that kids in general would like vinyl for the sound quality since they are primarily the ones ripping off the industry downloading MP3's and not even noticing the relatively poor sound quality.
I don't want to sound too much like the left-wing revolutionary that I am, but isn't the record industry ripping US off? Ripping the consumers off by selling 2-cent pieces of plastic for 18USD? Ripping off the ARTISTS, who rarely see dime one out of the music they created; people who often put their all into a record and usually end up owing money for the next 20+ years?

And how come the record industry doesn't fume out the ears when I buy a 99c record instead of their $16 dollar digitally remastered CD? Isn't that kind of the same thing as downloading an mp3? I think the record companies are just whining because they don't want to adapt. It's the same old story every five years. Same thing happened with the film industy when tape rental houses started. Remember when a brand new VHS copy of a movie cost $80??? Ridiculous.

Anyway, to stay at least remotely on-topic: I don't prefer vinyl over CD's because it sounds better (which often it seems to), or because of aesthetics (although I'm one of those "indie kids" who started buying records 12 years, only I didn't stop.) I prefer vinyl because they will invariably play longer and more reliably than a CD EVER will. In fact, recently I bought two different CDs, only to have one immediately start skipping throughout the whole thing, and one that stopped playing completely (and I take GOOD CARE of my discs!!).
One of the albums, I re-bought on vinyl. Best 20-bucks-for-two-records I ever spent.

Of course, it helps that it's an Albini recording. Or at least, my trendy aesthetic side finds it more pleasing. :P
Old 13th May 2006
  #56
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bunnerabb's Avatar
IMHO, people who confuse this music with dismissed fahsions have no business trying to create the next.
Old 13th May 2006
  #57
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robot gigante
You're partially right, but like I said before, give the kids some credit!
I was fully aware as a teen of how much better a record sounded than a cd. I was in full boycot of buying cds at the age of 15-16.... I was hoping that others would do the same and that the format would die. crappy sound, crappy artwork that you couldn't see, no gatefolds, no laser etched b-sides or picture disks..... cd = boring. finally the format is dead, but it's been replaced by something even worse.

btw, the first CD i broke down and bought came in a 12" try-fold sleeve; the content was never released on vinyl........

records aren't perfect, but they sure are a lot more fun. I have 20x the number of cds now than records, but i love my records and couldn't give a rats-ass about my cds
Old 13th May 2006
  #58
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcballs
I find it hard to believe that kids in general would like vinyl for the sound quality since they are primarily the ones ripping off the industry downloading MP3's and not even noticing the relatively poor sound quality.
vinyl is tangible and cherish-able, mp3s are disposable... which would you pay for?
Old 13th May 2006
  #59
Lives for gear
 

even i think like this

mp3s can be had one way or another-- you either pay for the cd and make an mp3 copy or you have somebody else do it for you, thus rendering the real cd useless
vinyl you are supporting the band you love, you have a unique analog copy of their music, and chances are you can still find the mp3s online for your cd-r or ipod

and the fact that vinyl tends to be cheaper than cds leads a person to buy............................... vinyl!
Old 13th May 2006
  #60
Lives for gear
for the p2p discussion, vinyl is a factor to improve the relation between customer and industry, but the money that kids can spend for music has always been limited.
how much (in relation to average family income) do kids spend for music today, and how much did they spend, in times when vinyl was the only good and available media technology? the question is not, how many else could listen through copied cassettes or nowadays mp3, but how much was spent in total! exposure is better than no exposure, and the sold product must reward the customer, or it won't sell.
currently, the alleged damage by illegal copying is being strongly surpassed by the possibility to listen to really good and honest music at myspace and other platforms!!
this facility will satisfy many young listeners enough so they don't need another hyped mainstream "star", and furthermore it will draw serious sales figures into independent distribution. it's these indies again that start to release vinyl, additionally to their CD shipping and download that is nowhere listed to be seen in charts or economic statistics...
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