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if you hear things like i do...
Old 10th December 2011
  #1
if you hear things like i do...

well guys for better or worse, i hear things the way i hear things... some of you might hear the way i do. some of you might not. this thread is for people who hear the way i hear(or at least mostly the way i hear. hopefully some of those people can lend me some of their experience too.

until now, ive always stuck with an off axis 57 on guitar cabs. but im looking for recommendation on a new mic or mic position(for modern rock guitar). something that hopefully will need little or no eq to fit right in my mixes(unlike 57's). the pre's i have available are: aurora audio gtq, api 512, ssl 6000 series. please replay to this thread if you hear things the way i do...

if you hear things like i do, you dont always like akg d112 on most kick drums. but you almost always love the audix d6.

if you hear things like i do, you could live with a 57 on snare, but usually prefer the audix i5

if you hear things like i do, you never really got the whole sennheiser 421 thing on toms, but you love cad m179's instead.

if you hear things like i do, you love mid-side mic'ing on drum room mics.

if you hear things like i do, you think neumann u87's are good all around mics, but they have something funky going on in the midrange

if you hear things like i do, you think an akg d112 sounds awesome on a bass cab

if you hear things like i do, you love the brightness of akg 451's

if you hear things like i do, you love 1176's


if you hear things like i do, you love parallel compression and huge drums!

if you hear things like i do, you love cla mixes


if you hear things like i do, you know that a bass di simply isnt as good as mic'ing a bass cab


if you hear things like i do, you dont like using multiple mics on guitars or anything else, unless its really necessary because you detest phase issues.

if you hear things like i do, then both you and i hate having to eq guitars to make them fit in every single mix. over and over and over... there must be a better way. something must be missing... there must be someone out there who relates to my points of view, and has already traveled the same path im taking to achieve complete audio wizdom....

dont get me wrong, i could live with a 57, and i understand compression and eq are an engineers main tools, but moments like "oh crap my audix d6 on kick does everything i wish i could get my akg d112 to do without much eq" makes me feel like there must be a better way to record guitars that im just not aware of.
anyway, you get the point... any ideas??
Old 10th December 2011
  #2
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pongmaster's Avatar
 

..if i had time like you do, i'd post an answer
Old 10th December 2011
  #3
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Batchainpuller78's Avatar
 

Get some Beyerdynamics M69/M88/M201... useable in any application, make you think the SM57's must be broken heh
Old 10th December 2011
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rev9recording View Post
... something that hopefully will need little or no eq to fit right in my mixes(unlike 57's) ...

if you hear things like i do, then both you and i hate having to eq guitars to make them fit in every single mix. over and over and over... there must be a better way. ...

..., but moments like "oh crap my audix d6 on kick does everything i wish i could get my akg d112 to do without much eq" makes me feel like there must be a better way to record guitars that im just not aware of.
I don't think it's possible for the marketplace to deliver what you want.

The Audix and other kick drum specific mics also have EQ -- it's just hardwired into the mic's circutiry within its housing instead of leaving it flat and forcing you to adjust the EQ at the desk/DAW.

I'm not clear on which aspect bothers you. Is it the purity of "no EQ" that you're looking for? If so, the Audix D6 isn't really doing that; it's "hiding" the EQ on your behalf, not eliminating it. If you're already aware of the hidden EQ curve but just want a faster workflow (because it's not forcing you to manual adjust in the DAW), I'm not sure we can expect an equivalent "guitar amp" specific mic. The variations and opinions on good guitar tones is way too wide a spectrum for a pre-EQ'd guitar mic to sell in quantity. Yes, there are also a bunch of different kick drum sounds too. But, if there are 100 different kick drum sounds, there must be a 1000 guitar sounds. Not sure how you can find a reasonable lowest-common-denominator in that. A producer micing a Fender Tweed with dirty brown distortion is looking for a different EQ than micing a hi-gain British metal amp with a lot of sizzling fizz.

Quote:
... there must be a better way to record guitars that im just not aware of.
One way to address the issue of the non-existent pre-EQ guitar mic is to use a DAW's recallable presets of EQ for specific applications. It's slightly more work but everybody always makes additional EQ tweaks to the pre-EQ'd drum mics anyways so not sure the holy grail of zero eq is a realistic goal.
Old 10th December 2011
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by pongmaster View Post
..if i had time like you do, i'd post an answer
Heck, I didn't even have time to read it past the first few items...
Old 10th December 2011
  #6
Sorry, was there a question or are these the lyrics to a slightly dubious song
Old 10th December 2011
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Heck, I didn't even have time to read it past the first few items...
I just read the last 2 paragraphs.

The OP could edit and remove all the lines "if you hear things like i do,...". It wouldn't detract from his post at all -- it would improve it. He's got a good question buried in there that could use a variety of opinions about solutions.
Old 10th December 2011
  #8
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suedesound's Avatar
 

alright i actually read all of that and can relate on several things (though longwinded).

in order of preference what i hear for guitar cab: m160, 441, re15, m88. give those a try and report back.
Old 10th December 2011
  #9
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dualflip's Avatar
 

I think this thread is just the result of having too much free time, added with self-praising of some sort, next time just post it in your blog, because this thread is useless.... or perhaps you were expecting a hi five?
Old 10th December 2011
  #10
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m160
Old 11th December 2011
  #11
I agree with you on a lot of things...

I've found the better way to get a bigger guitar sound, is multiple amps, Y split from a single source, use one amp for the top end, another for the midrange, and if you want, another for the low mids.

Or try a AE2500, multi mic that cab, with zero phase issues.
Old 11th December 2011
  #12
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u b k's Avatar
 

I don't hear things like you do.

But the buzz about the r-121 sounding like the cab is fairly spot-on.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 11th December 2011
  #13
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cavern's Avatar
 

I hear you hearing the way you do,
I also hear voices inside my head..but that's normal right?...you guys hear them too right?.......right?
Old 20th December 2011
  #14
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Rae Nimeh's Avatar
 

ever try a vintage c12a or sennheiser 409 ?? or maybe a shure ksm 137 or 141....yes i went from left field to right passing up many but ya get my drift. All in the ears of the beholder
Old 20th December 2011
  #15
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Ernest Buckley's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pongmaster View Post
..if i had time like you do, i'd post an answer
Old 20th December 2011
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavern View Post
I hear you hearing the way you do,
I also hear voices inside my head..but that's normal right?...you guys hear them too right?.......right?
Actually, I'm often uncomfortable standing close enough to hear the voices in someone else's head.

It can be a problem this time of year when the stores are crowded.
Old 21st December 2011
  #17
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AcoosticZoo's Avatar
I agree with phasing issues from micing things with more than one mic.
Old 21st December 2011
  #18
Gear Guru
 

Frankly I don't see a common thread, just a list - and a rather arbitrary list at that.

Like probably many others, my "score" was about 50%. I guess the OP doesn't really want my advice about guitar mics, then...

If the OP could get even more specific about the way he hears things, he could eventually eliminate all those people who are not him.

Then he could ask himself what he should use.
Old 21st December 2011
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason West View Post
The Audix and other kick drum specific mics also have EQ -- it's just hardwired into the mic's circutiry within its housing instead of leaving it flat and forcing you to adjust the EQ at the desk/DAW.

I'm not clear on which aspect bothers you. Is it the purity of "no EQ" that you're looking for? If so, the Audix D6 isn't really doing that; it's "hiding" the EQ on your behalf, not eliminating it. If you're already aware of the hidden EQ curve but just want a faster workflow (because it's not forcing you to manual adjust in the DAW), I'm not sure we can expect an equivalent "guitar amp" specific mic.
I don't know where you got your info from but I think you're wrong, I've never heard of a passive equalizer inside the D6. BTW I'm with the OP on this one, having the frequency response nailed by choosing the right mic sounds much better than equing it later, It's not about being a purist, it just sounds better that way.
Old 21st December 2011
  #20
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GoldMember's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavern View Post
I also hear voices inside my head..
LOL
Old 21st December 2011
  #21
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciozzi View Post
I don't know where you got your info from but I think you're wrong, I've never heard of a passive equalizer inside the D6.
The D6 is pre-EQ'd to have scooped mids and boosted highs/lows. Check out the frequency curve found here:

http://www.audixusa.com/docs/specs_pdf/D6.pdf
Old 21st December 2011
  #22
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revson View Post
The D6 is pre-EQ'd to have scooped mids and boosted highs/lows. Check out the frequency curve found here:

http://www.audixusa.com/docs/specs_pdf/D6.pdf
not sure why I am feeling deja vu here but anyway:

There is nothing in the .pdf document to indicate the mic has any EQ circuitry inside it. Just because a mic's curve is not flat does not mean it is EQ'ed, it is probably the result of the design, construction and materials.

The Yamaha subkick has almost no highs, yet there is no EQ in it, removing those highs, it's just that the "diaphragm" is a woofer and is too heavy to respond to high frequencies.
Old 21st December 2011
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revson View Post
The D6 is pre-EQ'd to have scooped mids and boosted highs/lows. Check out the frequency curve found here:

http://www.audixusa.com/docs/specs_pdf/D6.pdf
The D6 frequency response is taylored to sound like that but that doesn't mean there's an actual eq hard wired into the mic's body, a target frequency response of a mic is usually obtained through capsule tuning and internal structure of the mic body (resonances and phase cancellations). Some manufactures may include an additional passive network inside the mic to either correct the response even further or give you more flexibility while tracking, the former though is a bit unusual.
Old 21st December 2011
  #24
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I'm sure Reyson didn't literally mean that there was an EQ circuit built into the mic, but that the mechanical and electrical components in the mic result in emphasis of certain frequencies, just like all mics except a few omnis. What he did mean is that you're not eliminating the use of EQ by choosing a different mic, you're just doing it in mechanical means rather than in your DAW. The same is true of moving a mic around to get the frequencies you want to hear, it's not eliminating EQ, just obtaining it differently.
Old 21st December 2011
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciozzi View Post
I don't know where you got your info from but I think you're wrong, I've never heard of a passive equalizer inside the D6.
I'm not a mic design expert but I'm not sure how you can get the type of "scooped" or "smiley" face frequency response purely by mechanical means within the small housing of a D6.

Yes, you can mess around with the housing's internal baffles and spacing for achieving certain response patterns such as omni, figure-8, cardioid, etc but to scoop out the bass mids? I'm not familiar with the acoustic mathematics but my intuition says you'd need a much larger enclosure... maybe the size of a baseball bat with a good length of resonance tubes (ports) to attenuate the bass mids. The mic's diaphragm and voice coil would then be at the very end of such a tube "listening" to the new response curve altered by the tubes. Basically, I'm thinking of a Bose Wave Radio in reverse.

If mechanical freq response tailoring (to the extreme degree as it's done with kick mics) can be done inside the small D6 housing, is there a whitepaper or book that diagrams how that's accomplished?

To me, it seems way easier and cheaper just to slap a RLC filter circuit in the signal path acting as a passive-EQ. That's what the Shure and Beyere kick mics do. If you disassemble the Audix D6, I'm guessing that's what they've done.
Old 21st December 2011
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason West View Post
I'm not a mic design expert but I'm not sure how you can get the type of "scooped" or "smiley" face frequency response purely by mechanical means within the small housing of a D6.

Yes, you can mess around with the housing's internal baffles and spacing for achieving certain response patterns such as omni, figure-8, cardioid, etc but to scoop out the bass mids? I'm not familiar with the acoustic mathematics but my intuition says you'd need a much larger enclosure... maybe the size of a baseball bat with a good length of resonance tubes (ports) to attenuate the bass mids. The mic's diaphragm and voice coil would then be at the very end of such a tube "listening" to the new response curve altered by the tubes. Basically, I'm thinking of a Bose Wave Radio in reverse.

If mechanical freq response tailoring (to the extreme degree as it's done with kick mics) can be done inside the small D6 housing, is there a whitepaper or book that diagrams how that's accomplished?

To me, it seems way easier and cheaper just to slap a RLC filter circuit in the signal path acting as a passive-EQ. That's what the Shure and Beyere kick mics do. If you disassemble the Audix D6, I'm guessing that's what they've done.
I'm not a mic designer expert either but consider that there are reasonably small ported speaker enclosures tuned down to 40-50Hz, like the KH 120 for example. It's a wild guess but I think that to generate a resonance that's in phase with the original signal you'd have to create a phase shift via those ports of 360° or a multiple of it.

Creating a simililar effect at 400/500 Hz would require a tenth of the volume. Also consider that cutting mids means cancellation, which means a phase shift of 180° instead of 360°, which in theory should require a shorter waveguide, exactly half of it, so we are down to a 20th of the original volume.

Of course this was only speculation, is there anyone out there that knows for sure ?
Old 21st December 2011
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciozzi View Post
, so we are down to a 20th of the original volume.
Isn't the D6's diaphragm right behind the protective metal grille? If so, there's no "space volume" in front of it to create a "mechanical" EQ via tuned ports -- you have to do it with electronics after the voice coil. Or are you describing something else?
Old 21st December 2011
  #28
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Mertmo's Avatar
 

Personally, I don't get the fear of phase issues resulting from 2 mics on a guitar cab.

Yeah, if you are blatantly careless with placement... it's gonna suck.
But if you can eyeball spatial distances and angles with any precision, it's cake.

I eyeball my angles and distances carefully, lining up capsules etc...
Never ever have a problem. Phase is solid first time I bring the faders up.

Really not that hard...
---
As far as EQ on guitar, try putting an EQ pedal in the chain before the amp.
Listen to what's coming through the recording rig, not the speaker in the room.
Adjust EQ pedal to taste... done.

I wouldn't record guitars without an EQ pedal anymore, it's just become too
easy and too useful to have one as part of the process.

EDIT: I shouldn't say "fear" of phasing. It's not like it's a ghost story, ha ha! Of course it's real and
if it bugs you it bugs you... One thing that does bug me with 2 mics on an amp is, way too many tracks
to deal with. I'd love to have an API 3124+ for this, so I could just mix the mics together before the DAW.
I actually avoided messing with 2 mics on a cab for years and years. Then I tried it and was blown away.
Sounds huge if you get the right two mics on there... Now I'm addicted...
Old 21st December 2011
  #29
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbob1 View Post
I'm sure Reyson didn't literally mean that there was an EQ circuit built into the mic, but that the mechanical and electrical components in the mic result in emphasis of certain frequencies, just like all mics except a few omnis
not sure what Reyson meant, but it is clear that a number of people here DO believe there is a little EQ circuit inside the mic. Powered no doubt by a miniature nuclear reactor since the mic takes no phantom or battery.

They simply can not believe that the design of a mic could affect its response curve apparently.

I guess the only solution will be to open one up, take it apart and find that circuitry!
Old 21st December 2011
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason West View Post
Isn't the D6's diaphragm right behind the protective metal grille? If so, there's no "space volume" in front of it to create a "mechanical" EQ via tuned ports -- you have to do it with electronics after the voice coil. Or are you describing something else?
uhm, I think if you look better you may notice some very small openings on the side of the mic lol.
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if you hear things like i do...-d6.jpg  
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