At the start of the thread I was comparing X-Desk and Nucleus. Now that I don't think the X-Desk is what I want im looking into other options. I've only had my hand on SSLs expensive **** though, The Matrix, the AWS, and a 72 channel consule that I can't remember the model number of, I get to work on a duality in my later months, CAN'T WAIT!
I absolutely loved the way the Matrix operates though, especially for myself since I will be doing alot of "in the box" mixing and recording single tracks at a time. Thats why im so interested in the Nucleus. If you compare the nucleus and matrix by only pictures, the nucleus is the exact same as the matrix just without the analog control section. And a few less bottons in the master section.

Could you name a few? The only things I know of and have heard (mostly) good things about have been the Nucleus and the MCU

The levels were always different. If I remember correctly each fader was off a different amount, none of them were off by .1 i would say a db or more. Everytime I turned the thing on it calibrated to 0, but 0 on the mackie sometimes would turn it +1.0 or more on protools once I would initially move the faders. I also forgot to add if I was working really quick or made a major fader adjustment, right after I made the adjustment the fader would go back to where it originally was and that has to do with the fader resolution like Saggsy has stated about midi or hui fader resolution is only 256.

Thanks for the heads up. Have you had any experience with other controllers that you liked?

to be honest the only other controllers i've tried are the digidesign ones command 8, C24 new and old version and a 003. Me, I use a presonus faderport and a X-Desk , best decision I ever made. I have one fader to write aux's and I mix everything out the box on the x-desk, only time i move a track fader in protools is when I occasionally stem tracks out (and yes I write all my settings on paper, pain in the ass but worth it imo).

Do you like the faderport? Sounds nice but one fader is kinda iffy to me. Do you like your X Desk?

if your mixing in the box one fader is kinda pointless, i use it mainly for automation and the record and play button and that works great for my work flow. Then I have the X-Desk for mixing and talkback, it's a nice little combination.

I love my X-Desk, most likely gonna buy a X-Panda unless SSL comes out with something between the Matrix and X-Desk in the near future, which they really need to do. I have a very small setup and the X-Desk is the one piece that probably made the biggest improvement on my overall sound, I'd recommend it to anyone.

What made you decide X-Desk over the Nucleus?

Like I stated in my first post a controller does nothing to your sound it's just a controller, for the price of a nucleus I can get allot of cool ****. The X-Desk has artist communication (gotta have it if your running a studio) but more importantly it's super analogue like they're other stuff and I get to mix on a SSL mix bus. The X-Desk improves my sound the nucleus won't, for me it's that simple. But you gotta think about what works best for you and your needs.

Ah, the thread title is X-desk VS Nucleus.

As Louie has already mentioned - Nucleus is only a controller with a couple of pre's - it will impart no 'sound' of its own other than the pre's if you use them with the input of a signal - nothing when you are actually mixing as such.

X-desk is a mini analog console - minus the EQ which you would normally get in an analog console.

X-desk would be perfect for monitor control, talkback and most important part is that you would use the X-Desk for its summing features.

Think of it like this - when you record into your DAW and you have a mulitple of tracks going to the master stereo outs all of the summing is done digitally via the internal mix buss - so your DAW is for the lack of a better word 'digitally gathering' (summing) all of your tracks together to output it via stereo L and R in a very computer like mathematical sense - 0's and 1's.

The benefit of using an external summing device is that you are sending discrete tracks out of your DAW into separate inputs of the summing device - these are generally regarded as 'stems' of the multiple tracks in your DAW - for example you might buss your Kick out of output 1, your snare out of output 2 and the rest of the 'kit' (toms, overheads, room mics) out of outputs 3-4, your Bass DI and Mic tracks to output 5, Guitars to output 6 and vocals to outputs 7-8 - then you would mix these 'stems' on the physical faders of the X-desk for example to the LR mix buss of the X-Desk - the way that the X-desk sums these signals together is in the analog domain - summing in the analog domain is a tried and tested process and tends to add harmonic distortion and other artifacts that are actually pleasing to the human ear rather than leaving it up to a computer to 'crunch the numbers' and come up with a mathematical alternative to summing the tracks together.

The beauty of the X-desk is that you can actually use it to sum 16 channels of your DAW outputs (thus allowing you to expand on how you either directly send out signals or stems) by using the ALT inputs which reside on each of the 8 main channels and selecting them via the CUE knobs and then selecting 'CUE to Mix' switch - this then adds a further 8 channels which can all be summed to the stereo buss - 8 being controlled by the CUE knobs and 8 being controlled by the 8 faders.

Also I have read that you can assign the Master Buss insert returns to the main mix therefore increasing the summing capability to a total of 18 inputs (although the insert returns if summed to the mix buss would not be fader or knob controllable).

I know this sounds a bit confusing at the moment but the more you delve into all of this it'll make more sense to you.

Also, Louie obviously uses the X-desk in exactly the way that I described - although like he says, he has to write all of his settings down on paper - to enable him to recall the settings at a later date. This is one of the reasons that I am reluctant to go down the X-desk path - I wish they had included Total Recall like they have in the X-Rack - but I guess this would have added to the cost of the X-desk (although not by that much I dont reckon) even though it would have been an awesome feature - i would say that it has stopped alot of people from buying them.

Another way to eleviate this probelm would be to use your DAW faders to do all of the volume control and have the X-desk set up at unity gain throughout, therefore making recalls a hell of a lot easier - but really you would want to drive certain signals through the X-desk to impart more of that SSL goodness onto your stems etc.

saggsy

but really you would want to drive certain signals through the X-desk to impart more of that SSL goodness onto your stems etc.

saggsy[/QUOTE]


That and panning is the best part . Yeah man no recall really sucks if you use it like I do. That's the only reason I haven't gotten a X-Panda and a Matrix is just out of my price range.

You can actually get 22 ins on mix down with the X-Desk too. You can use the 2 aux st returns as inputs and there's a additional stereo input with no controls. You can still use the insert on the master when using the stereo input.

SSL has a huge gap between the X-Desk/X-Panda setup and the Matrix, personally I'd love to see something fill the gap. Why not build a X-Desk/X-Panda with recall, it would kill.

That actually makes perfect sense. I have used the Analog end of the matrix for stem mixing, but I didn't understand how taking a Digital Signal and throwing it into analog curcuits could change it, but its not just the curcuits, tts how it combines the signals together? Correct (ima rephrase it so we know that we are on the same page) On the digital end combinding the signals isn't as "nice sounding" as when you make those tracks into analog audio before combinding?


With that said what makes a combination of Nucleus and X-Desk not equal the Matrix? I know that those two together will equal about 8 grand, and the matrix is 23 grand, so there must be something im missing. The nucleus even has the same amount of faders, and same design, only thing it was missing was the analog end from what I believe, and thats what the X-Desk has.

Still looking for an answer, read the previous post for any more info you may need.

The best answer would be to go to SSL's website and research it. The differences are HUGE. But the simple answer would be the Matrix is one machine and its a hybrid (analog/digital) mixer. So your routing would most likely be way different from a X-Desk/Nucleus setup. Second would be number of analog ins, inserts, more aux channels and recall for your analog setting. The list goes on but I'm gonna stop here.

The Matrix and Nucleus have nothing in common besides the fact they both control daw thats it. The Only thing in common with the Matrix and X-desk is they're both analog mixers, even if you added a X-Panda to the X-Desk you would still be lacking a few features on the analog side.

However you can buy a Nucleus and X-Desk and use them together but you'll be lacking many of the expensive features of the Matrix. In my opinion it wouldn't be worth it or cool, it would just take up needed space and money.

I didn't so much mean to make you think I meant hooking them together, and sorry for annoying you with a million and one questions.
Ill get reading, but im just wondering where the $15k gap between them comes from. I need to get my hands on them is what needs to happen. When saggsy broke down what the X-Desk does, it opened my eyes to how different the X-Desk was to the Nucleus, BUT now I see INCREDIBLE similarity to the Matrix and Nucleus/X-Desk combo. Both are DAW controllers, both have analog mixing and summing, and the Nucleus even has 2 Pre's, where the Matrix has nothing but mixing ability unless paired with another interface. Im not trying to suggest that the Matrix is bad or an insane price, im just trying to better understand what the extra 15k is going to. I have requested info from SSL as to the Nucleus, X-Desk, and X-Rack, so soon enough I will hopefully be well educated in the matter, but if anyone feels like answering me now it would be awsome.

[QUOTE=JoRillo;7130959]I didn't so much mean to make you think I meant hooking them together.



Whats the point of a X-Desk/Nucleus setup then? If your just content with mixing itb then the nucleus would be all you need besides a monitor controller. The matrix is meant for a hybrid setup where you'll be doing some sort of analog mixing/processing.

I gave you the answer I gave you because the differences between the 3 are to many for me to list and to be honest I probably don't know them all once you get involved with the matrix. All 3 have they're place in the market and are all meant to do different things.

Best thing to do is play with the matrix more at your school and learn it, and go to guitar center in the meantime and demo a couple controllers and see what works best for you.

you could have found all this out yourself by spending 5 mins on the ssl website.

Ya know, I just think some people lack researching skills of their own and need to be spoon fed information - problem is, we are all human beings here JoRillo and spoon-feeding info to people that just don't seem to be bothered going to the effort like the rest of us have to self educate will get pretty tiring pretty quickly - to be honest, I'm surprised that this thread has gone on as long as it has, and I'm also surprised at my self for the patience I have had in responding to some of these inane questions.

We don't need to hear all of your thoughts, and we are not going to splurge out years and years if our own research into paragraphs of replies - time is money, my time has a certain value, I don't know you from a bar of soap, so unless you want to invest your time in research, I'd be happy to school you through this process but it'd be at a cost, let's say $50 per 200 word email. I reckon thats fair, it might make you think about the questions you ask me, but then again it'd make you a smarter person and you wouldn't have to put your own time into research, if that's not something you are particularly good at or like doing.

(Remove my asshole hat now)

saggsy

It's not that Saggsys being a dick, I've read allot of his posts in the past and he gives good advice. I think the point he's trying to make is there are other ways about doing your research then posting easily answered questions. You stated you went as far as to email SSL about info on they're products, but why not just read up on them on they're website? It's all the same info. When I research gear on here, I make sure I know what it does first before I even think about asking a question about it. I feel this site is best used when you use it to get feedback on products and learn how others use them and the little tricks they may have learned along the way. Not to ask what something does or it's purpose, when you start doing that you're getting ahead of yourself. Knowledge is key.

Hope I didn't come off as a dick.

Besides the meterbridge I gave you the main differences. X-Desk has 22 analog ins at mixdown. Matrix has 40+. X-Desk has 2 aux's, Matrix 4. X-Desk has no recall, Matrix does. X-Desk has 2 monitor outs, Matrix 3, the list just goes on and on and on.

So if your using a X-Desk/Nucleus instead of a Matrix you are missing a meter bridge, additional channel inputs, channel inserts, aux's ect. I also stated even adding a X-Panda to the mix still doesn't add up to the matrix. Then on top of that your using 2 machines instead of one, for me personally that would slow me down owning a nucleus and x-desk. I'd have to have it all in one machine. I'd love to own a Matrix or a X-Desk with recall, but the nucleus will never be a option for me.

Im not trying to say they are exactly the same thing, or same number of inputs etc., but is...

$15k worth of stuff?

Im not even talking about getting a combination of the the two, im just trying to figure out what im missing with the price difference. I guess it honestly doesn't matter, i've taken enough heat on this thread to call it quits. I hope to get an answer, but I feel im done with this fishing expedition, im getting bit by sharks rather then reeling in fish, and I feel im only putting myself out farther and farther into the ocean.

For me it would but I have a small studio and don't have that kind of cash and not willing to take a loan out. Digital metering sucks, for my first few years that was the root of my problem besides lack of knowledge. So the meter bridge is cool i'd much rather use VU meters. The 4 aux sends are really cool. I have 2 on the X-Desk, right now I use 1 for reverb or delay but falling in love with effect processors and definitely buying more. The Matrix Has recall on its analog settings plus more inputs. If I buy A X-panda I can get close to the same amount of analog inputs as a Matrix but I still have to write all of my settings on paper, so i'll probably build a X-Rack summing mixer with recall instead. The list just goes on and on. You also gotta think about where you are at. A Matrix looks allot more professional than having a Nucleus, X-Desk and X-panda, side by side, so depending on your clientele you may want the more professional look. Since I've never used a Matrix I can't comment on how it integrates with a daw, but I bet it's pretty cool.

While I understand your points, and they make alot of sense (the recall on the Matrix is SOOO sweet, was my first time ever seeing something like that), im talking about actual physical pieces and reasons for 15k, im no expert, but the things you have said I don't believe should cost THAT much. Im just guna end it though. Thanks for being respectful, and hope to see you on future threads.

Just thought id throw this out there to anyone who might be reading: You guys forget what its like to know know things, and alot of you tend to be quick to judge. If someone on the streets asked you for directions you would never respond the way you have to myself and many others on these forums. Rather then saying things like "Use Search", why don't you take 20 seconds out of your day and give them a link, or at least tell them what to look up? Consider not that they havn't searched anything about it, but rather they might not know how to find something using the wording they have. Its sad really the way some of you behave, im 19 years old, might not know half or even a quarter of the things you know, but im respectful, and at least have the curiosity to find out the things I don't know. I try and help people to the find their answers, but I don't even expect it from you, I just ask you not reply if all you will bring is negativity.

Peace,
-Rillo

Yes, I thank you for your help and information, but I still havn't gotten the answer im looking for as in the $15k between the two, but im ready to end it now. Im not trying to keep this going, just trying to help you understand why I ask. I knew before asking that it had more auxs, more tracks, and some other stuff, I just wanted to hear why it would be so much more expensive.

Im ready to let this thread die though, its just making me look bad.

As someone else mentioned, don't overlook the cost of the meter bridge. I'm sure it's not cheap. Same for routing. Up to 40 tracks on mixdown.

Dual stereo mix busses. 5.1 surround monitoring.

The Matrix comes with routing software that can greatly reduce the need for a patchbay.

You've got 16 connects on D-sub that you can hook up to your hardware to and move around channels at the push of a button.

That's slick. Imagine moving a hardware comp off tracks 3/4 and throwing it on 7/8 by just button clicks.

asking why something costs 15k more than a Frankenstein version of something that you put together in your own head is not going to change the cost of any given product, you either buy it or you don't.

sorry you thought I was being a dick, personally I think you need to grow some balls and take a bit of criticism before replying to someone with an insult like that - basically you just shot yourself in the foot in my books, why would I want to help you anymore?

If you read my posts again you'll see that all I've been trying to do all along is help YOU Jo. Trying to make you realize that questions that don't have a specific answer make YOU come across as a noob that thinks that this forum owes him something. Generally speaking this forum is willing to help new comers, but if all you do is continue to ask questions that can easily be answered with a google search and some research then people get fed up with it.

good luck in your endeavors in this world of audio cause you sure won't be hearing from me again, go bug some of the other thousand odd members on this site that you might be lucky to get some info out of, but trust me it's like plucking teeth most of the time.

saggsy

of course he would have known about this feature(s) if he had done a bit of reading

saggsy

lol. You're right.

Lets start a fresh shall we - I dont hold grudges - Its not in my nature to do so - Im sorry man.

I know how you feel about there being a mass of information out there on all this stuff - information overload is no good for anyone.

The last thing i'd want you to do is to spend a wad of cash on something that you might not even need yet.

Sure we'd all like to have gear on our desks and in our racks that have 'the' right brand names and it sure does help when your clients see that stuff, people will tell you it wont, but I think that the first impressions people get of your studio/setup go a massive way to putting their minds at ease that you know what your doing and as a result it will pull a better performance out of the artist - hell I forced myself to learn how to mix on NS-10's (even though they dont make anything sound good straight off the bat) just so that I had the speakers with the black boxes and white cones heh - but as soon as people see them, they might not say anything but their mind ticks over and they go - **** I've seen those speakers everywhere in every 'pro' facility on the face of this earth - same with using ProTools.

You definitely need to learn how to wade through the masses of crap (made by obscure companies and sadly also companies that hold a great deal of regard in the industry) that is out there though and make your purchase decisions both mentally the right ones for your clients (as sad as it sounds) and also the right decisions that will benefit you as an engineer.

Put it this way - I probably wont respond to all of your posts, but rest assured that I will post a reply for you if I think that your barking up the wrong tree and about to invest in a dead end product.

I don't want to sound all high and mighty cause there are heaps smarter more experience guys on this forum, but then again, like I've said previously, I have been 'in' this game for the last 15 years - I started building my studio when I was 14-15years old and now I'm 30 - and thankfully due to heaps of research and reading between the lines I have not yet regretted a single purchase that I have made (and it is so damn tough to actually demo any pro audio gear here in Australia, so the research online is the key for me) - and on that note I haven't sold any of my gear to 'trade up' to better gear cause I feel that the purchases that I have made have always been calculated and all of my gear still holds a place in my studio.

Just quickly - I know your after a fader controller for your DAW, but seriously this is one department of what we do that is seriously lacking in choice and quality of selection - hence my reason to buy the 003 when it was released, good compromise of quality, ins and outs, great integration with PT, monitor control and also the fader resolution that your after (i.e. not limited to 256 steps of MIDI) - seriously dude, save up and buy PT9 - it is awesome, it is industry standard making you more employable if the chance arises, and it really was the beginning to audio recording/editing in the DAW world - where as most other DAW's you see now came up from a MIDI sequencing back ground that then had the audio side of things stapled on at a later stage.

(wow, I'm mentally puffed out after that one )

Talk soon.

saggsy

JoRillo - I had actually tried to PM you that last message - but I see you've banned me from PMing you - please lift the ban - let us be friends

saggsy

I dont mean to intrude....but it looks like your mate has been banished to never-never land.

The thread was a good read though