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Wide double tracked guitars, polarity? Amp Sim & Guitar Effects Plugins
Old 18th September 2011
  #1
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
Wide double tracked guitars, polarity?

Hi Everyone,

I was using this as a ref track!

Scar Symmetry - The illusionist - YouTube

The guitars sound really wide, which is kool.. In a normal double tracked 100 R /100 L(Not copied, actually played twice.. You know!!) It doesn't sound as wide..

It sounds to me like they have been playing with the polarity..

Mono button not working on my MBOX!!!..

Can you confirm I'm not going crazy?
Old 18th September 2011
  #2
Gear Addict
 

i always invert polarity at the preamp for the R vs L side when im doing hard panned rhythm electric guitar
Old 18th September 2011
  #3
Quote:
Originally Posted by recorder2 View Post
i always invert polarity at the preamp for the R vs L side when im doing hard panned rhythm electric guitar
You're not getting major mono cancelation?
Old 18th September 2011
  #4
Lives for gear
If its a second performance why would he?
Old 18th September 2011
  #5
Gear Addict
 

yeah it has to be a second performance LOL


and yes i DO get some cancellation, but only in the phantom center, and that SLIGHTLY carves out the center so the vocal, bass, and kickdrum can fit in there
Old 18th September 2011
  #6
Gear Addict
 

I'm pretty sure that if you record two separate passes, flipping one out of phase with the other won't do anything.
Old 18th September 2011
  #7
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Christ View Post
I'm pretty sure that if you record two separate passes, flipping one out of phase with the other won't do anything.
there will be some cancellation which will be heard as a slight tonal shift, and if they're panned wide, it's only in the center that there is a slight tonal shift -- and the guitars sound wider and more in-your-head
Old 18th September 2011
  #8
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by recorder2 View Post
there will be some cancellation which will be heard as a slight tonal shift, and if they're panned wide, it's only in the center that there is a slight tonal shift -- and the guitars sound wider and more in-your-head

Maybe im wrong, i dunno, but, i think won't do anything...i concur with Elvis.
Old 18th September 2011
  #9
Gear Addict
 

yes u r wrong

with 2 takes panned hard and one phase reversed there is a subtle and generally desirable tonal shift and perception of width/depth
Old 18th September 2011
  #10
Lives for gear
 

Holy crap..... this works!!!

Maybe not as dramatically as panning (obviously!) but in the context of a mix....IMHO it gives the width an extra 10-15% width separation (or something) from the middle.

In theory there should be loads of cancellation, but in reality its not that noticeable! for Logic users use the invert button on the gain plugin in the utilities plug in folder.

In n00b terms: So for example, say you have 4 guitar tracks, 2 panned hard left, 2 hard right. On the right two or left two, put the plugin on and hit the invert button. Slight tonal shift, but gives a bit more parting from the vocals. Lose a touch of focus, but if you crank the gain a half db to compensate you should be gravy!
BTW, this only works if the left and right tracks are different performance takes!
Old 18th September 2011
  #11
Gear Addict
 

2 separate tracks? Really? I don't think this is correct. I suppose I will just pull up a mix and try it, what the hell.
Old 18th September 2011
  #12
Lives for gear
 

This is a common question here. Look:

Double tracking guitars and phase
Old 18th September 2011
  #13
Right, I was specifically referring to cancelation in mono playback in conjunction with tightly tracked parts. In stereo there's a slight enhancement, while in mono there can be significant cancelation occasionally. I usually use different mic and pre combos for hard left and right. Sometimes I'll do a few cents pitch instead to avoid the pseudo center that can happen sometimes in tight tracking without changing setups.
Old 18th September 2011
  #14
Lives for gear
 

Dude, it's a psycho-acoustic effect. it will always sound worse in mono. Fortunately, most people listen in stereo.
Old 18th September 2011
  #15
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by recorder2 View Post
yes u r wrong

with 2 takes panned hard and one phase reversed there is a subtle and generally desirable tonal shift and perception of width/depth
OK, i´ll try...
Old 18th September 2011
  #16
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
Guys I know how it works, been doing this long enough. Some people become over concerned with mono cancellation and tbh if you do it wrong you will play it out of your phone, or mono laptop and you will just have a huge hump of vox and drums.

I need to know if that track is doing it, its ok ill download a mono master plug and find out.

Thx guys..
Old 18th September 2011
  #17
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannyvect View Post
Hi Everyone,



Mono button not working on my MBOX!!!..
That's not what the mono button is for on the Mbox. It's for bringing the input signal to the centre when using the mix knob for zero-latency monitoring (where you're hearing your input before it gets converted to digital and sent to PT). Otherwise input from mic/line 1 would only be in the left channel, and the right channel for mic/line 2. That's fine for stereo recording but if you're only recording a mono source then you usually want it monitored in the centre.

That's all totally irrelevant if you're using a low buffer and monitoring your source through PT with the mix knob 100% to the right. In this case you're hearing the signal totally from PT and the mono button will have no effect.
Old 18th September 2011
  #18
Deleted User
Guest
To get super wide guitars, I like tracking the part in stereo, double tracking, and then panning the stereo track hard left and hard right. In Cubase, you can pick the exact points in which your stereo track is panned to, don't know if it's the same in Pro Tools. Well put both Hard Left and both Hard Right, that seems to give an infinitely wider picture than to track in mono and Hard L+R
Old 18th September 2011
  #19
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffLee View Post
That's not what the mono button is for on the Mbox. It's for bringing the input signal to the centre when using the mix knob for zero-latency monitoring (where you're hearing your input before it gets converted to digital and sent to PT). Otherwise input from mic/line 1 would only be in the left channel, and the right channel for mic/line 2. That's fine for stereo recording but if you're only recording a mono source then you usually want it monitored in the centre.

That's all totally irrelevant if you're using a low buffer and monitoring your source through PT with the mix knob 100% to the right. In this case you're hearing the signal totally from PT and the mono button will have no effect.
It outputs mono.. when you press the blue mono button. It needs sending back again.

You don't even know which mbox I have or how I have it set up..

Stop assuming.
Old 18th September 2011
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannyvect View Post
It outputs mono.. when you press the blue mono button. It needs sending back again.

You don't even know which mbox I have or how I have it set up..

Stop assuming.
Not 100% sure, but I seem to remember that the mono button on the mbox is for the direct monitoring, it's not like a console mono monitor button.

In which case, the post you've just rebuked was actually helping you, not making assumptions. Might wanna check the manual first next time...
Old 18th September 2011
  #21
Gear Nut
 

Psycho Monkey, thanks for coming to my defence but the rude bugger seems to be right - on the Mbox 3 the Mono Button sums the control room outputs to a mono signal. I stand guilty of assuming! Although to be fair to myself, the mono button on earlier Mbox's has confused a lot of people...
Old 18th September 2011
  #22
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffLee View Post
Psycho Monkey, thanks for coming to my defence but the rude bugger seems to be right - on the Mbox 3 the Mono Button sums the control room outputs to a mono signal. I stand guilty of assuming! Although to be fair to myself, the mono button on earlier Mbox's has confused a lot of people...
Didn't mean to be offensive mate, sorry if I came across that way.. I just get tired of people throwing round ill formed information... Poor start out's never know what hit's them..

By the way here is a good guide to widening stereo imaging and polarity with PT if anyone is interested.

Pro Tools | Classic Stereo-widening Tricks

Sound is my life, my job and my career been doing this long enough to be able to help others.. My MBOX is broken at the moment the mono button won't do anything, but I don't have time to get it fixed. It does the job for mixing at home on my laptop... Got to go home from the studio sometimes :P

Everyone needs help some times..

Will get it sorted ASAP.
Old 18th September 2011
  #23
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Not 100% sure, but I seem to remember that the mono button on the mbox is for the direct monitoring, it's not like a console mono monitor button.

In which case, the post you've just rebuked was actually helping you, not making assumptions. Might wanna check the manual first next time...
I appreciate your help, but I know 100% how it work's buddy I have had it over a year and have read the manual.. The mono monitoring function was one of the reasons I bought it.
Old 18th September 2011
  #24
Gear Nut
 

No worries - I think I am the rude one!
Old 18th September 2011
  #25
I'm not hearing any trickery in the original clip- just sounds like good mixing.
Old 18th September 2011
  #26
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveE View Post
I'm not hearing any trickery in the original clip- just sounds like good mixing.
It's weird now I have come to have a proper look at it, when in mono it seems that there is some cancellation going on.. I also run it through an analyzer.

They have done something with the polarity somewhere.

But like SOS says there are ways to do it right.

Can't be the pan width in pro tools, because that track was tracked in pro tools.. But try setting it 100R 100L and see if you can get it sounding anywhere as wide!
Old 18th September 2011
  #27
Gear Addict
 

But, back to the original discussion...this is bugging me a bit since someone may read this thread and become misinformed. Flipping phase on 2 separately recorded tracks (takes) will do absolutely nothing: just like if you flipped phase on a vocal, it would have no relation to a separately recorded snare drum (or vocal for that matter). The op's point is technically/scientifically wrong and i am not sure how he is hearing a change.
Old 18th September 2011
  #28
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Christ View Post
But, back to the original discussion...this is bugging me a bit since someone may read this thread and become misinformed. Flipping phase on 2 separately recorded tracks (takes) will do absolutely nothing: just like if you flipped phase on a vocal, it would have no relation to a separately recorded snare drum (or vocal for that matter). The op's point is technically/scientifically wrong and i am not sure how he is hearing a change.
Yes but if you double tracked, then duplicated and then turned the tracks down.. On the duplicates insert a trim tool flip the Polarity and bring it up slowly, then it will work..

Just don't push your luck or you will have problems..

Read the SOS! Doc please ..

Plus there is a little secret to this I forgot to mention there is a key word in that SOS document that make this work.. Without it flipping polarity on a doubled take even with duplicates might not get you to where to you want to be!

Last edited by Deleted 6ccb844; 18th September 2011 at 06:47 PM.. Reason: Spellings!! LOL!
Old 18th September 2011
  #29
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
Some more from SOS:

The usual technique to maintain mono compatibility is to pan the original mono signal to the centre, process a copy of the sound in some way and pan this left, then take a further polarity-inverted version of the processed signal and pan it right. If you play the recording in mono, the two processed tracks will cancel, leaving you with your original sound intact. The kind of processing you can try for the ‘side’ channels includes short delays, mild chorus or EQ. Adding a lot of bumps and dips to the EQ curve (for example, using a graphic EQ and pulling alternate faders up and down) can generate a neat pseudo-stereo effect. For this to work correctly, it is vital to ensure that the two added effect channels carry exactly the same signal at the same level, and that just one of them is polarity-inverted (using a phase switch or plug-in). Some DAWs provide you with stereo ‘faking’ plug-ins that do the EQ and phase manipulation for you, so if you have anything like that available, it’s worth giving it a try. 0
Old 18th September 2011
  #30
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by recorder2 View Post
i always invert polarity at the preamp for the R vs L side when im doing hard panned rhythm electric guitar
ok dannyvect, i read the sos article and i think i was talking about something different. i will have to try that out sometime.
the statement i take issue with is the one i have quoted in this post from recorder2; his whole line of reasoning actually. his statement makes no sense at all (unless he is correcting for phase problems) and i just wanted to clear that up so no one gets bad info.
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