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Wide double tracked guitars, polarity? Amp Sim & Guitar Effects Plugins
Old 20th September 2011
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loflyinjett View Post
I decided to try it out and I have to say I do in fact notice a slight difference. I'm not sure if I LIKE the difference but I do hear it. I've attached two clips for comparison. 1 is the standard clip and 2 is with the right side flipped.

The clip is a rhythm guitar track from one of my bands songs. Heavily distorted punk guitar with pretty good double tracking.
I never would have guessed in a million years that flipping the polarity on an independently recorded guitar track could make a difference in sound. It seems mathematically impossible to my mind.

Yet the difference in sound in those two files is huge.

I'm gonna' have to try this myself with my own tracks before I can come around to the idea. It still seems like it shouldn't be possible.
Old 20th September 2011
  #92
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Loflyinjett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT View Post
Sorry, post not directed at you, but at Elvis

I'll check yours out.

john

edit, yours are much better sounding...sorry, no offense elvischrist.

edit 2: You wouldn't have had to tell me, and I would have known which is the fliiped one.
Sorry, sounds ...err, not so hot. That's why I don't do it.

One is ok though man.
It's cool man and yeah number 2 doesn't sound great by itself IMO.
Old 20th September 2011
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT View Post
OK, not to be a pita, however this should be mentioned:
You used the 979, which is supposed to overcome this exact problem we have been talking about. The plugin is not mere polarity reversal.

If you want to do the test, please try again with just the polarity switch, as this is what we were discussing no? Or did I miss something.
Thanks,
john

PS.. not sure it makes any difference at all, but I NEVER use dsp guitar tones, always amplifiers.
Maybe you guys are not experiencing it to the degree that I am...I have no idea.

Apologies, but even still, those clips sound wierd as hell to me (still not phase coherent or something?), and IMHO would not end up on any recordings I know of.

Am I tripping here?

It sounds like an old POD or something.
No offense.

Thanks for taking the time to do the test.
john

John,
Did the discussion involve guitar tone quality? No. I used the default preset in Softube Metal Amp room because it was quick. Using a virtual amp in no way invalidates my test...in fact, it insured consistency (besides the human element) between the two takes. I wasn't trying to get into "Awesome Guitar Player" magazine or anything here, just create a simple part that was easy to double.
Now, onto the actual topic...apparently you did not fully read the description of the files I posted. The first 2 files have one guitar sweeping 180 in phase. One of the files is hard panned, one is summed mono. I automated pha-979 to sweep 180 degrees throughout the performance.
The second 2 files do in fact alternate phase 180 degrees on one of the guitars...i switched polarity 180 degrees. Again, i posted a file that was hard panned and a file that was summed mono.
I use the 979 to illustrate my main and only point: that changing phase on one of the tracks in no way effects anything. Yes, it is used to correct phase problems, but that's neither here nor there. If, in fact, changing phase on one double tracked guitar did change something, the fact that the 979 was sweeping the phase 180 degrees would illustrate this. This also would be illustrated by alternating one of the tracks 180 degrees in and out of phase. So I ask again, on any of the files, did you hear any change caused by the alteration of phase on one of the tracks?
Thanks,
EC
Old 21st September 2011
  #94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs Goat View Post
I never would have guessed in a million years that flipping the polarity on an independently recorded guitar track could make a difference in sound. It seems mathematically impossible to my mind.

Yet the difference in sound in those two files is huge.

I'm gonna' have to try this myself with my own tracks before I can come around to the idea. It still seems like it shouldn't be possible.

Yes, it is huge. This is why I was perplexed.

As far as with Elvis's files...I have no idea what's going on there.

Elvis, going to listen again, and re-read your post.

Not a knock on you man, just that your experience is (no pun intended) 180 degrees from mine.

Trying to get my head around what you guys are talking about.
john
Old 21st September 2011
  #95
Elvis, you switched just using a polarity reversal switch on your console or daw? Not the pha-979?

Yeah, I don't hear any obvious whacked out phase stuff. Again, I don't use tones anywhere similar to this, not sure if it's a dsp thing, or what.

Again, if you used the 979 to flip the polarity, this is not the same as a polarity switch.

It compensates with an all pass filter I think?

Much like an IBP.

So, it is not just reversed pol. it is also compensating for time vs. freq., if not mistaken.

I could be wrong however.

It is designed to make things that are out of phase, sound in phase of course.

So, again, you are saying take 3 and 4 are just a simple polarity switch?
Thanks for your patience,
John
Old 21st September 2011
  #96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs Goat View Post
It still seems like it shouldn't be possible.
Why is this though? Just curious why you would think this is all. I am certainly glad you can hear it though.

If you get two signals playing the same note, struck near the same time, but not exactly, the phase relationship will be different.

Because it is different, you will get reinforcement, and cancellation to some degree, even when in phase.

Flip it though, and you will get FAR more cancellation, and reinforcement because of what is similar between the two tracks, which frankly is a lot.

That is, if the player was still in tune with his first track, quasi on time, and held notes the same duration, and hit them with the same velocity.

On the same setup.

Get a really good consistent singer, try the same thing. It will cancel and reinforce too. Any instrument will.

Absolute phase man, if you can swing it, always. At least for me. Unless looking for a phaser effect or something...I dunno.

Elvis, my apologies, I did not mean to knock your gtr tone. I understand it was a quick and dirty test.

I'm out, thanks guys, it has been interesting.

Peace,
john
Old 21st September 2011
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT View Post
Elvis, you switched just using a polarity reversal switch on your console or daw? Not the pha-979?

Yeah, I don't hear any obvious whacked out phase stuff. Again, I don't use tones anywhere similar to this, not sure if it's a dsp thing, or what.

Again, if you used the 979 to flip the polarity, this is not the same as a polarity switch.

It compensates with an all pass filter I think?

Much like an IBP.

So, it is not just reversed pol. it is also compensating for time vs. freq., if not mistaken.

I could be wrong however.

It is designed to make things that are out of phase, sound in phase of course.

So, again, you are saying take 3 and 4 are just a simple polarity switch?
Thanks for your patience,
John
Yes, take 3 and 4 are polarity switch. One guitar plays with normal polarity, then abruptly switches to 180 reverse polarity. On the first two tracks, the pha-979 is a perfectly valid way to demonstrate this to...it seems you are getting hung up on the fact that it is used to correct phase issues. It is a *tool* to *adjust phase,* for correction or otherwise (just like a polarity switch, but infinitely adjustable between degrees of phase). By automating the phase adjustment on the pha-979 i was able to continuously adjust the phase 90 degrees in either direction. Every possible degree of in-phase or out-of-phase was covered by that test. If you were to do that same test with the *exact same duplicated file*, you would hear massive phase shift.
The actual tones have no bearing on what I am demonstrating: the fact that they are exactly the same does. I am glad for you that you mic amps and get really good tones, though.
Old 21st September 2011
  #98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Christ View Post
Yes, take 3 and 4 are polarity switch. One guitar plays with normal polarity, then abruptly switches to 180 reverse polarity. On the first two tracks, the pha-979 is a perfectly valid way to demonstrate this to...it seems you are getting hung up on the fact that it is used to correct phase issues. It is a *tool* to *adjust phase,* for correction or otherwise (just like a polarity switch, but infinitely adjustable between degrees of phase). By automating the phase adjustment on the pha-979 i was able to continuously adjust the phase 90 degrees in either direction. Every possible degree of in-phase or out-of-phase was covered by that test. If you were to do that same test with the *exact same duplicated file*, you would hear massive phase shift.
The actual tones have no bearing on what I am demonstrating: the fact that they are exactly the same does. I am glad for you that you mic amps and get really good tones, though.

You still didn't answer my question, sorry, I'm back.

Was the polarity reversal done with a simple polarity reverse, and not the pha 979? There is a difference.

From the Voxengo web site:
PHA-979 is a professional audio AU and VST plugin which allows you to apply an arbitrary phase shift to sound material. What is meant by the phase shift here is simultaneous shifting of all frequencies across the active frequency range of the signal by the given value in degrees. This is achieved by linear-phase design.

This is not simple polarity reversal.

I apologized for the critique of your tone. No need to get touchy, sorry if I came across as a jerk.

john
Old 21st September 2011
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiljoy View Post
I'm gonna go out on a limb here but that doesn't sound like a double track, this sounds like the same take through 2 different amps (or amp sims).

Edit: In fact, now after two more listens I definitely think it's one take processed differently and panned.
+1 ,
Listen to it in mono and it gets very obvious.
Old 21st September 2011
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT View Post
You still didn't answer my question, sorry, I'm back.

Was the polarity reversal done with a simple polarity reverse, and not the pha 979? There is a difference.

From the Voxengo web site:
PHA-979 is a professional audio AU and VST plugin which allows you to apply an arbitrary phase shift to sound material. What is meant by the phase shift here is simultaneous shifting of all frequencies across the active frequency range of the signal by the given value in degrees. This is achieved by linear-phase design.

This is not simple polarity reversal.

I apologized for the critique of your tone. No need to get touchy, sorry if I came across as a jerk.

john
Listen man, I have already explained 2 or 3 times that i did do polarity switch. I will say it again: I did do polarity switch. Tracks 3 and 4 are toggled between one take being in polarity and 180 degrees out. I cannot explain this any more clearly.
I cannot explain the pha-979 any further. Just download the demo as I did and use it and then maybe you will get what it does. Instead of toggling between in and out of polarity, it sweeps all the way between them. What better demonstration could there be than this?
Anyways, I did it both ways. Toggled in and out, and continuously swept in and out.
Regardless, my tracks demonstrate and prove my theory.
Old 21st September 2011
  #101
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Jerrick's Avatar
 

Im gonna have to try this, but from what im hearing, im not liking it that much. The slight cancellation is way to obvious to my ears, sounds like someones is resting there arm by the fader and accidentally lowering it and pushing it back up.

Usually if I want things to be wider, ill touch the eq first. That can help with the sounds being more directional, easier to tell where its coming from. And if I really have to go super-width, the DrMS is pretty amazing, even for that 'beyond the speaker analog' panning.
Old 21st September 2011
  #102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Christ View Post
Listen man, I have already explained 2 or 3 times that i did do polarity switch. I will say it again: I did do polarity switch. Tracks 3 and 4 are toggled between one take being in polarity and 180 degrees out. I cannot explain this any more clearly.
I cannot explain the pha-979 any further. Just download the demo as I did and use it and then maybe you will get what it does. Instead of toggling between in and out of polarity, it sweeps all the way between them. What better demonstration could there be than this?
Anyways, I did it both ways. Toggled in and out, and continuously swept in and out.
Regardless, my tracks demonstrate and prove my theory.
Already have the 979... for years now. Use it seldomly anymore.
Once in a while on acoustic, stereo miked, if I or somebody else screws up the phase on the mics or something. Nice inexpensive plugin.

So yeah, I am fully aware of what it does.

It doesn't prove anything to me, it proves that whatever you are doing there on your end, is giving you the results you posted.

If it works for you keep on going with it. We are just having vastly different experiences, as well as a lot of engineers I know.

Fair enough.

No need to get huffy...

Peace,
john


PS: NOT directed @ ELVISCHRIST but to everyone who believes there is no difference:
If there is NO difference, then why the hell even do it to begin with? Wasn't the whole point to achieve a "wide double tracked guitar"?

I mean if it is doing nothing...
Old 21st September 2011
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT View Post
Already have the 979... for years now. Use it seldomly anymore.
Once in a while on acoustic, stereo miked, if I or somebody else screws up the phase on the mics or something. Nice inexpensive plugin.

So yeah, I am fully aware of what it does.

It doesn't prove anything to me, it proves that whatever you are doing there on your end, is giving you the results you posted.

If it works for you keep on going with it. We are just having vastly different experiences, as well as a lot of engineers I know.

Fair enough.

No need to get huffy...

Peace,
john


PS: NOT directed @ ELVISCHRIST but to everyone who believes there is no difference:
If there is NO difference, then why the hell even do it to begin with? Wasn't the whole point to achieve a "wide double tracked guitar"?

I mean if it is doing nothing...
Huffy? I was just simply confused as to why I already explained that I did polarity flip/switch on my files, yet you continued to miss (several times) that I had in fact (and clearly explained) done polarity flip/switch. Also, I am not sure how you can not understand why automating the 979 to rotate 180 degrees through polarity is not valid? It starts and ends at the same place a polarity flip/switch does, plus hits every possible stop on the way.
Annoyed/bewildered/frustrated would be a better term than "huffy".
If my results do not prove anything to you, then please tell me where in my methodology i went wrong? I'm pretty sure I covered the bases here with both polarity flip/switch, and 180 degree polarity sweep. I can't think of much else better to prove my point. If you have a better/more valid method, let me know.

I think you summed it all up by saying, "If there is NO difference, then why the hell even do it to begin with"
Old 21st September 2011
  #104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Christ View Post
Huffy? I was just simply confused as to why I already explained that I did polarity flip/switch on my files, yet you continued to miss (several times) that I had in fact (and clearly explained) done polarity flip/switch. Also, I am not sure how you can not understand why automating the 979 to rotate 180 degrees through polarity is not valid? It starts and ends at the same place a polarity flip/switch does, plus hits every possible stop on the way.
Annoyed/bewildered/frustrated would be a better term than "huffy".
If my results do not prove anything to you, then please tell me where in my methodology i went wrong? I'm pretty sure I covered the bases here with both polarity flip/switch, and 180 degree polarity sweep. I can't think of much else better to prove my point. If you have a better/more valid method, let me know.

I think you summed it all up by saying, "If there is NO difference, then why the hell even do it to begin with"

If you used the polarity reversal instead of using the 979, then the methodology is correct.

If you used the 979, the unit is not a simple polarity reverse. Even at 180, it is still being sent to a filter.

See my post several posts back, with the quote from their website.

The reason I kept posting, was because you didn't say how you did the polarity reversal, merely that you did. With what though?

That's all.

For the record, again, I am saying I don't do the polarity flip, I think it sounds bad, on the many times I have tried it, or accidently left the polarity switch in on my console.

Immediately I hear the comb filtering, even in stereo. Makes me dizzy. Sounds outta phase to me.

What was puzzling me, is why you were not getting any of this, because everyone else I know seems to. I mentioned it could be dsp, as in that your patch could have a chorus effect, something...I dunno.

I give up trying to find out why.

Let me just say, that in MOST instances, you will get a comb filtered effect when you do this recording guitars the way they are (were?) traditionally recorded, via gtr> amp> microphone.

I just got off the phone with three other engineers, to make sure I wasn't tripping out, and full of myself. Never know, after well over 20 years, I am still learning, and am wrong a lot, as are most people.

So...

They all say something along the lines of "Of course you will get phase and comb filtering issues. Bad idea..."

Or at least just a simple polarity reversal without any other time domian or pitching effect.

Particularly if you are going to broadcast, or convert to a compressed format etc.

YMMV

Gotta go to work, no hard feelings.
john
Old 21st September 2011
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT View Post
If you used the polarity reversal instead of using the 979, then the methodology is correct.

If you used the 979, the unit is not a simple polarity reverse. Even at 180, it is still being sent to a filter.

See my post several posts back, with the quote from their website.

The reason I kept posting, was because you didn't say how you did the polarity reversal, merely that you did. With what though?

That's all.

For the record, again, I am saying I don't do the polarity flip, I think it sounds bad, on the many times I have tried it, or accidently left the polarity switch in on my console.

Immediately I hear the comb filtering, even in stereo. Makes me dizzy. Sounds outta phase to me.

What was puzzling me, is why you were not getting any of this, because everyone else I know seems to. I mentioned it could be dsp, as in that your patch could have a chorus effect, something...I dunno.

I give up trying to find out why.

Let me just say, that in MOST instances, you will get a comb filtered effect when you do this recording guitars the way they are (were?) traditionally recorded, via gtr> amp> microphone.

I just got off the phone with three other engineers, to make sure I wasn't tripping out, and full of myself. Never know, after well over 20 years, I am still learning, and am wrong a lot, as are most people.

So...

They all say something along the lines of "Of course you will get phase and comb filtering issues. Bad idea..."

Or at least just a simple polarity reversal without any other time domian or pitching effect.

Particularly if you are going to broadcast, or convert to a compressed format etc.

YMMV

Gotta go to work, no hard feelings.
john
But, I *DID* say how I went about polarity reversal...very clearly...several times.
Now, where on earth does Voxengo say anywhere that audio is sent to a filter? Where? You won't find anything about that anywhere on their website or the owner's manual. The only place a "filter" is even mentioned is in the *metering section* of the plug-in. In case you were unaware, metering should not effect the audio in any way.
I did read your quote from Voxengo, "What is meant by the phase shift here is simultaneous shifting of all frequencies across the active frequency range of the signal by the given value in degrees." This is exactly why this plug-in and the way I used it is perfect to demonstrate my theory. If the "phase shift" in one track of the pair of doubles did indeed effect audio, you would have heard it pretty darn clearly and constantly. If there were any phase relationship between the two tracks, it would have constantly shifted throughout.
As I have said before, even though you are hung up on pha-979, i did it the other way too with a complete 180 flip of polarity. I kind of find it silly that you ask how I did that...uh...there is a switch that says polarity...and I switched it. How else would I have done it?
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