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Wide double tracked guitars, polarity? Amp Sim & Guitar Effects Plugins
Old 18th September 2011
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recorder2 View Post
yes u r wrong

with 2 takes panned hard and one phase reversed there is a subtle and generally desirable tonal shift and perception of width/depth
this is another statement that is 100% false
Old 18th September 2011
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Christ View Post
this is another statement that is 100% false
Yeah I agree 100%.. You can't just flip the polarity on a double (recorded) guitar track and expect it to do anything..
Old 18th September 2011
  #33
No, surely you've had double tracked parts where, in places, the tracking is tight enough that you get a center image, rather than left and right. Flipping polarity on one of those tracks can correct that, but in mono, you'll instead have a guitar part that disappears in places entirely.

Again, this is only for when the same setup is used for both left and right. Not the case when using different setups for left and right.
Old 18th September 2011
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Hepworth View Post
No, surely you've had double tracked parts where, in places, the tracking is tight enough that you get a center image, rather than left and right. Flipping polarity on one of those tracks can correct that, but in mono, you'll instead have a guitar part that disappears in places entirely.

Again, this is only for when the same setup is used for both left and right. Not the case when using different setups for left and right.
wow, that would have to be an incredibly tight double for that to happen, even in the conditions you describe. in fact, it would have to be so tight, that it is exactly the same. in that case, there would be no point to doubling.
i've played guitar for 25 years, practiced with the metronome the whole time, been written up in national guitar mags etc. and never once had this happen. recorded lots of other "tight-doubling" guitarists in the conditions you describe and never had this happen. i've also listened to very tightly doubled Metallica albums (for example) and never observed this. props to whoever can play this tightly. probably a better chance of getting struck by lightning than this actually happening.
Old 18th September 2011
  #35
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guys relax, it works, try it...like i said it's SUBTLE
Old 18th September 2011
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Hepworth View Post
No, surely you've had double tracked parts where, in places, the tracking is tight enough that you get a center image, rather than left and right. Flipping polarity on one of those tracks can correct that, but in mono, you'll instead have a guitar part that disappears in places entirely.

Again, this is only for when the same setup is used for both left and right. Not the case when using different setups for left and right.
Not with some of the talentless peep's I have worked with LOL!!

But then again this is about extending stereo image, because you can only go 100L and 100R so if it sounds beyond that on your mixes.. Then something else has got to be in play..

Simple panned delay plugs are noticeable, when guitars sound dry as chuff but one sounds like they are on jupiter and one on mars.. Then there is something being done..
Old 18th September 2011
  #37
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by recorder2 View Post
yeah it has to be a second performance LOL


and yes i DO get some cancellation, but only in the phantom center, and that SLIGHTLY carves out the center so the vocal, bass, and kickdrum can fit in there
It's precisely because of the slight cancellation of this technique that makes it so sound nice
Old 18th September 2011
  #38
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by recorder2 View Post
yes u r wrong

with 2 takes panned hard and one phase reversed there is a subtle and generally desirable tonal shift and perception of width/depth
Quite true. I've been in sessions where the problem was the player was so good (mostly on acoutsic) that the second take was so close to the first that there was too much cancellation, so you'd try flipping the phase of one, or nudge it a bit, and if that didn't help, do a retake
Old 18th September 2011
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recorder2 View Post
guys relax, it works, try it...like i said it's SUBTLE
recorder2: i am not sure if you are confused, misinformed, or both. if you are stating that phase adjustment (in your case polarity reversal) will have any effect at all on 2 separately recorded passes, you are absolutely wrong. there is no effect...not even a subtle effect. maybe a subtle placebo effect?
if you are trying to describe the aforementioned procedure from the sos article, then you are just confused and using the wrong terms.
i mean nothing personal here, it's just that info like you are giving out stays on the internet for a long time and is 100% wrong...or shall I say 180 degrees reverse polarity from the truth.
Old 18th September 2011
  #40
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Christ View Post
wow, that would have to be an incredibly tight double for that to happen, even in the conditions you describe. in fact, it would have to be so tight, that it is exactly the same. in that case, there would be no point to doubling.
i've played guitar for 25 years, practiced with the metronome the whole time, been written up in national guitar mags etc. and never once had this happen. recorded lots of other "tight-doubling" guitarists in the conditions you describe and never had this happen. i've also listened to very tightly doubled Metallica albums (for example) and never observed this. props to whoever can play this tightly. probably a better chance of getting struck by lightning than this actually happening.
see my post above

The reason you don't hear it for example on a Metallica record is porbably because different amp settings were used; even slight alterations in tone will minimize the issue

I do a lot of M-S tracking of electric guitars -- quite often two takes, both recorded M-S and the center channels panned L & R -- and when the phase is flipped on the 2 appropriate channels, the guitars leap out beyond even the edges of the soundfield -- try it, you'll like it
Old 18th September 2011
  #41
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Christ View Post
recorder2: i am not sure if you are confused, misinformed, or both. if you are stating that phase adjustment (in your case polarity reversal) will have any effect at all on 2 separately recorded passes, you are absolutely wrong. there is no effect...not even a subtle effect. maybe a subtle placebo effect?
if you are trying to describe the aforementioned procedure from the sos article, then you are just confused and using the wrong terms.
i mean nothing personal here, it's just that info like you are giving out stays on the internet for a long time and is 100% wrong...or shall I say 180 degrees reverse polarity from the truth.
I hear what you're saying, but let's approach this logically:

If you have two takes of the same instrument and all the settings are equal, there will be many parts of the waveforms that will be close to identical; even more so if the player is gifted. Even if they are panned hard L&R, the two waves still emanate through the air and that's where the slight phase cancellation occurs -- especially noticeable on acoustic, what with it's particular partials. So flipping the phase on one channel CAN have a noticeable effect on how the two waves interact in the air
Old 18th September 2011
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Christ View Post
wow, that would have to be an incredibly tight double for that to happen, even in the conditions you describe. in fact, it would have to be so tight, that it is exactly the same. in that case, there would be no point to doubling.
i've played guitar for 25 years, practiced with the metronome the whole time, been written up in national guitar mags etc. and never once had this happen. recorded lots of other "tight-doubling" guitarists in the conditions you describe and never had this happen. i've also listened to very tightly doubled Metallica albums (for example) and never observed this. props to whoever can play this tightly. probably a better chance of getting struck by lightning than this actually happening.
I refuse to believe you've NEVER experienced it - that's ludicrous (even terrible guitarists do it accidentally here and there) - and I think you're super exaggerating my statement.

This thread has become ridiculous and I won't post on it again. You're the person that can't ge shocked by peeing on the electric fence. Try getting closer to it next time.
Old 18th September 2011
  #43
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as i said, "in the conditions you describe" i have never had that happen. granted, i do not know the exact condition of how metallica doubles were recorded and should not have used that as an example.
also, let's be clear...i am not taking issue with the sos article, your esoteric mid-side technique, or anything other than some of the specific statements made by recorder2. i repeat: flipping phase on 1 of 2 separately tracked takes will have no effect. perhaps, in the *extremely* unlikely event that someone plays it *exactly* the same in both takes this would be possible. this might have happened once....ever....
i would think on acoustic this would be an even more remote possiblility. maybe if the guitar were played by a statue so that the slightest movement in relation to the mic were not possible? but, statues cannot play guitar, and humans could not possibly sit in the exact same position and play the exact same part the exact same way twice...even the greatest musician ever could not do this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by doug hazelrigg View Post
see my post above

The reason you don't hear it for example on a Metallica record is porbably because different amp settings were used; even slight alterations in tone will minimize the issue

I do a lot of M-S tracking of electric guitars -- quite often two takes, both recorded M-S and the center channels panned L & R -- and when the phase is flipped on the 2 appropriate channels, the guitars leap out beyond even the edges of the soundfield -- try it, you'll like it
Old 18th September 2011
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug hazelrigg View Post
I do a lot of M-S tracking of electric guitars -- quite often two takes, both recorded M-S and the center channels panned L & R -- and when the phase is flipped on the 2 appropriate channels, the guitars leap out beyond even the edges of the soundfield
So you do two MS takes. The first Mid channel gets panned hard left, the second Mid channel gets panned hard right (or vice versa)...

What do you do with the Side channels?

When you mult the side channel and reverse phase on one of them before panning each opposite, do you, on the first take, pan the direct signal L and the multed phase-reversed signal R, then on the second take pan the direct signal R and the multed phase-reversed signal L?

Or both direct Side signals L and the multed phase-reversed signals R? (Or consistently vice versa, of course).
Old 18th September 2011
  #45
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
LOL

It doesn't even require an awesomely tight overdub. If it's the same instrument, mic, and part, there's going to be some cancellation. Again, it's that phasey aspect of this technique that makes it sound cool! Of course it doesn't cancel entirely into center, nobody is suggesting that. However, as I've said, I've been in sessions where, for example, a double-tracked acoustic was TOO expertly played and the cancellation was TOO consipcuous, and where a third take had to be done where the player consciously tried to be not so good! If I'm lyin', I'm dyin'
Old 18th September 2011
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Christ View Post
flipping phase on 1 of 2 separately tracked takes will have no effect.
look buddy i know this is going to sound like i'm trying to convert you to some religion i just invented, but flipping phase on 1 of 2 separately tracked hard L-R panned takes imparts a subtle aetheric quality that doesn't sound like phase cancellation but rather like a subtle tonal shift and alteration of width/depth perception.

the tracks don't cancel at all.

it doesn't even seem like you did anything if you step away and come back 10 minutes later.

but *something* happens.

that's all I'm saying.

and it's subtle once it's in the mix.

and i like the sound of it.

i do the phase switch in hardware, not software. when i track the second part i flip a physical switch.


---you DO sacrifice a degree of mono compatibility, that should be obvious, right? but who cares..?--
Old 18th September 2011
  #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Hepworth View Post
No, surely you've had double tracked parts where, in places, the tracking is tight enough that you get a center image, rather than left and right. Flipping polarity on one of those tracks can correct that, but in mono, you'll instead have a guitar part that disappears in places entirely.

Again, this is only for when the same setup is used for both left and right. Not the case when using different setups for left and right.

Exactly.

If I had an afternoon, a knew the part, I am quite sure I could get two parts to cancel ...what 70% of the way at least in mono.

I don't ever do the reversed polarity thing, unless something is out of phase. Drums, with so many mics, sometimes soemthing has to give.

Two gutr tracks though?

I try to keep absolute polarity whenever possible.

That way, it ends up at the end user with the speaker cone blowing, not sucking, provided they have their system in phase...which is a whole nuther issue.

john
Old 18th September 2011
  #48
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by recorder2 View Post
So you do two MS takes. The first Mid channel gets panned hard left, the second Mid channel gets panned hard right (or vice versa)...

What do you do with the Side channels?

When you mult the side channel and reverse phase on one of them before panning each opposite, do you, on the first take, pan the direct signal L and the multed phase-reversed signal R, then on the second take pan the direct signal R and the multed phase-reversed signal L?

Or both direct Side signals L and the multed phase-reversed signals R? (Or consistently vice versa, of course).
The first way (the "right" way ). The side channels are typically mixed in lower realtive to the Mid channel, but they add a bit of width/heft to the instruments. To be honest, I'm not knowledgeable enough about sound to explain why the instruments seem to move even further outside the field when the phase is flipped, but I suspect it has everything to do with intertaction in the air medium
Old 18th September 2011
  #49
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doug, so not only do the Mid signals get hard panned hard and wide opposite, but the Side signals, after being multed and one being phase-reversed, are panned hard and wide and *opposite* from each other in terms of L-R? Just checking we're speaking the same language haha.
Old 18th September 2011
  #50
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Christ View Post
as i said, "in the conditions you describe" i have never had that happen. granted, i do not know the exact condition of how metallica doubles were recorded and should not have used that as an example.
also, let's be clear...i am not taking issue with the sos article, your esoteric mid-side technique, or anything other than some of the specific statements made by recorder2. i repeat: flipping phase on 1 of 2 separately tracked takes will have no effect. perhaps, in the *extremely* unlikely event that someone plays it *exactly* the same in both takes this would be possible. this might have happened once....ever....
i would think on acoustic this would be an even more remote possiblility. maybe if the guitar were played by a statue so that the slightest movement in relation to the mic were not possible? but, statues cannot play guitar, and humans could not possibly sit in the exact same position and play the exact same part the exact same way twice...even the greatest musician ever could not do this.
I'm losing track of which thread I'm in here

It doesn't even require an awesomely perfect overdub. A PERFECT overdub would sound like one big instrument emanating from the center (just like if you copy a part, and pan them L&R); slight differences impart a phasey interaction; flipping the phase on one track CAN have an audible affect. Some folks copy a track, pan them L&R, and then flip phase on one... personally, that comes off TOO phasey for me, especially for Metal... better to copy, pan, and nudge one track 15-25ms back
Old 18th September 2011
  #51
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by recorder2 View Post
doug, so not only do the Mid signals get hard panned hard and wide opposite, but the Side signals, after being multed and one being phase-reversed, are panned hard and wide and *opposite* from each other in terms of L-R? Just checking we're speaking the same language haha.
Let me see if I can show this graphically:

Hmmmm....

GUITAR 1
MID-- panned left SIDE+ -- panned left SIDE- -- panned right

GUITAR 2
MID -- panned right SIDE+ -- panned left SIDE- -- panned right


I hope this explains it. Of ocurse, you can play with pan and levels of all the channels, too. (I also didn't show how I've grouped/multed them, but typically I'll mult each take, and then group the btwo mults, so I have an overall fader control of both guitars... since they're often, although not always, playing the same part)
Old 18th September 2011
  #52
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Guys Guys, No need to get too deep..

We all know it's there and we all know it does something, phase cancellation on a flipped polarity is a bad thing.. It's silly but there is mono hanging around.

I have used polarity to widen the girth of tracks, it's just doing it right that's important.

Keep it friendly and give tips
Old 18th September 2011
  #53
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Aaron Miller's Avatar
This is how it is: To the extent the two parts are identical, there will be cancelation and the trick will work. Mono, however, will collapse. To the extent the parts are different, the trick won't work but mono the signal won't collapse. It's a matter of degree and it's really that simple.

Personally, I don't think there is a need to flip phase for wide guitars because there are lots of other techniques that work well and if guitars are not wide enough after trying all of them then there are probably bigger issues.
Old 18th September 2011
  #54
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Kiljoy's Avatar
 

OK, so I just tried phase inverting one of the double tracked guitars in this here song I'm mixing, and yes they're pretty damn tight. WOW, the effect wasn't subtle at all, in fact, it did absolutely NOTHING to the width, imaging, centre cancellation... No perceivable effect what so ever.
Old 18th September 2011
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiljoy View Post
OK, so I just tried phase inverting one of the double tracked guitars in this here song I'm mixing, and yes they're pretty damn tight. WOW, the effect wasn't subtle at all, in fact, it did absolutely NOTHING to the width, imaging, centre cancellation... No perceivable effect what so ever.

Did you mono them out?

Also, how tight is "pretty tight"?

In the tightest parts if spot on, you should hear a little bit.

It probably harder to get cancellation than not. Just saying it can and does happen.

If I get the around to it, I'll try to dig out some gtrs I really noticed it on.

Peace,
john

ps: I mean usually it does something....are you certain?
Old 18th September 2011
  #56
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I did the test!!! To be honest, I was not sure who is right and who is wrong.

So I recorded the intro-guitar of "The Eye of the Tiger" (palm-muted sound). I recorded it twice, and to make it super tight I even used audioquantization heh. And indeed: It now was super-SUPER tight.

Then:
measure 1-4: normal,
measure: 5-8 switched phase on one Guitar
measure 9-12: normal
measure 13-16: switched
.....

Believe it or try it out yourself: Absolutely no audible difference!!! Though: You will have a placebo effect if you look at your screen!
To avoid that: Turn the volume down, hit playback, close your eyes and turn the volume up some seconds later ... you will not be able to determine the switched phase-parts!

So why argue, if anyone can try it out so easily.

Regards,
Lars
Old 18th September 2011
  #57
I believe it. Maybe your performance are not tight enough?

With a screen name of Segovia, I doubt it though.

Still it has to be dead on.

Try with simple power chords, and lots of gain.

I have been doing this 20 some years for $. I have heard it maybe 10 times, enough to where it's a drastic change.

I rarely mess with the phase, unless it's a distant mic on the same gtr cab.

It does happen though.
I was mainly trying to state that it IS possible and not impossible.

peace,
john

also, if it is pretty much the exact same part, and it gets ms out, it will of course cause some phase issues too, which is more common.

It's all phase man, the cancelling out is going to be damn near impossible, but I bet you can get some.
Old 19th September 2011
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiljoy View Post
OK, so I just tried phase inverting one of the double tracked guitars in this here song I'm mixing, and yes they're pretty damn tight. WOW, the effect wasn't subtle at all, in fact, it did absolutely NOTHING to the width, imaging, centre cancellation... No perceivable effect what so ever.

yep
Old 19th September 2011
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT View Post
I believe it. Maybe your performance are not tight enough?

With a screen name of Segovia, I doubt it though.

Still it has to be dead on.

Try with simple power chords, and lots of gain.

I have been doing this 20 some years for $. I have heard it maybe 10 times, enough to where it's a drastic change.

I rarely mess with the phase, unless it's a distant mic on the same gtr cab.

It does happen though.
I was mainly trying to state that it IS possible and not impossible.

peace,
john

also, if it is pretty much the exact same part, and it gets ms out, it will of course cause some phase issues too, which is more common.

It's all phase man, the cancelling out is going to be damn near impossible, but I bet you can get some.
it *is* possible, but the chances of it happening, especially for a long enough duration to make any kind of audible difference, are very, very slim. even the very best player of all-time would have to get very lucky. the chances of this happening are so remote, that basing audio practices around it would be silly. it would be more sound for me to base my financial decisions around the world ending in 2012.
Old 19th September 2011
  #60
Yes, it wouldn't cancel, it just sounds comb filtered and "phasey" for a second or two, in various parts of the song.

And only pf course when you flip the polarity. This is another reason why I don't do it, because I don't want to run the risk of this happening at any point in my mix.

I am thinking that this "flipping the phase" on a tightly played source, with the exact player, that day, same mic same set up etc., doesn't happen all that often, and this is why so few have run into this.

All I am saying, is I double track heavy gtrs every session basically.

And when I flip the polarity on the two parts, it doesn't sound good to me at all. Believe me, I have tried it hundreds of times.

Your experience is obviously different.

Fair enough,
john
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