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tell me what you think you know about dBs Studio Monitors
Old 24th September 2011
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlanestoner View Post
thank you so much for correcting what I posted. like the title of the thread...I told you what I thought I knew about dbs.

Please feel free to correct me, I'm loving the learning here.

As far as the production notes aspect goes...I annotate everything. What devices were disabled in my system to allow better performance...even on down to a minute measurement of mic placement or what cream:sugar ratio is in the coffee I'm chugging during the session. EVERYTHING matters in order to do a proper recall.

Someone said that intersample peaks don't exist? Can that poster elaborate?

I also have some questions about what I posted:

So 0db is the threshold of human hearing depending on the frequency?

As far as response to linear increases in dB, how does that work?

We don't perceive a 3dB change in amplitude as being 2x as loud?


cheers!
for one final time

INTERSAMPLE PEAKS DO NOT EXIST
CAN NOT EXIST
THEY ARE A MYTH

in the digital domain you have samples
there is nothing between the samples
hence metaphysically impossible to have peaks between them

in the analog domain there are NO samples
with no samples it is metaphysically impossible to have anything intersample let alone peaks

this nonsense jargon got started by people who confuse the digital and analog domains and do not understand that they are completely separate and unrelated except as defined by a specific a/d and d/a device. there being many such devices with different capabilities it is metaphysically impossible to even relate in any meaningful way a digital binary value to an analog domain voltage value.

furthermore there is NO intersample peak PROBLEM.
This is another myth done by the real time broadcast folks who cannot accurately predict the analog signal while still in the digital domain.
Old 24th September 2011
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swim View Post
As a reminder, there are samples in the analog "domain". Obviously.
nonsense
there ARE NO SAMPLES IN THE ANALOG DOMAIN

samples get created by the a/d and then the samples exist in the digital domain. they never exist in the analog domain.

you might say they temporarily existed on one half of the a/d converter for 1/192000 of a second or whatever rate you used.
Old 24th September 2011
  #93
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woodhenge's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
for one final time

INTERSAMPLE PEAKS DO NOT EXIST
CAN NOT EXIST
THEY ARE A MYTH

in the digital domain you have samples
there is nothing between the samples
hence metaphysically impossible to have peaks between them

in the analog domain there are NO samples
with no samples it is metaphysically impossible to have anything intersample let alone peaks

this nonsense jargon got started by people who confuse the digital and analog domains and do not understand that they are completely separate and unrelated except as defined by a specific a/d and d/a device. there being many such devices with different capabilities it is metaphysically impossible to even relate in any meaningful way a digital binary value to an analog domain voltage value.

furthermore there is NO intersample peak PROBLEM.
This is another myth done by the real time broadcast folks who cannot accurately predict the analog signal while still in the digital domain.

Are you really serious with this BS? This is as bad as someone trying to say that "the Earth is flat" or "the Earth is the center of the solar system". A complete lack of understanding of something doesn't mean something doesn't exist. Ignorance won't make something disappear, either.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, samples have a duration... in that duration, things are still in motion, even though it seems like it's insignificant to you.

Have you ever seen a digital clock that doesn't show you the seconds? (Pretty common stuff, so hopefully you have...) Let's say the clock says 7:56. Does time stand still until the clock hits 7:57? Of course it doesn't. There are seconds passing by in between that we can't see or detect, but we know they're there.

Samples are no different, just much smaller... especially at 192k. But even at 192k, a sample still has the duration of 1/192,000th of a second... they're slivers of real time. Part of your beloved analog waveform is moving through it... What if the tip-top of a peak happens to fall somewhere half-way into that sample... It can, does, and will happen all the time. Peaks aren't necessarily quantized to the beginning of a sample... Thank goodness they're not, because digital audio would be absolute garbage if it behaved that way. Either way, as long as you keep your levels sane, these will never be an issue for even a decently modest D/A converter.

In the analog domain, you're right... there really are no samples anymore, just reconstructed samples. heh
Old 24th September 2011
  #94
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
for one final time

INTERSAMPLE PEAKS DO NOT EXIST
CAN NOT EXIST
THEY ARE A MYTH

in the digital domain you have samples
there is nothing between the samples
hence metaphysically impossible to have peaks between them

in the analog domain there are NO samples
with no samples it is metaphysically impossible to have anything intersample let alone peaks

this nonsense jargon got started by people who confuse the digital and analog domains and do not understand that they are completely separate and unrelated except as defined by a specific a/d and d/a device. there being many such devices with different capabilities it is metaphysically impossible to even relate in any meaningful way a digital binary value to an analog domain voltage value.

furthermore there is NO intersample peak PROBLEM.
This is another myth done by the real time broadcast folks who cannot accurately predict the analog signal while still in the digital domain.
"intersample peaks" are, as we all know, a way of visualising the shape of a waveform when all we have are the taken samples. For those late to the thread, OAG is simply arguing against the terminology - he's not actually arguing with how digital audio works. In short, he's being pedantic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swim View Post
As a reminder, there are samples in the analog "domain". Obviously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
nonsense
there ARE NO SAMPLES IN THE ANALOG DOMAIN

samples get created by the a/d and then the samples exist in the digital domain. they never exist in the analog domain.

you might say they temporarily existed on one half of the a/d converter for 1/192000 of a second or whatever rate you used.
swim is technically right. No one mentioned digital samples (you ASSumed that, to quote your own insults). Matter is digital at a quantum level; air molecules are finite in number, even particles on a tape are finite. So yes - there are "samples" in the analogue domain.

Again, it's a pedantic point, but you'd appreciate that wouldn't you?
Old 24th September 2011
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Again, it's a pedantic point, but you'd appreciate that wouldn't you?
Reminds me of the album cover of "You Can Tune a Piano but You Can't Tuna Fish".
Old 24th September 2011
  #96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syncamorea View Post
Reminds me of the album cover of "You Can Tune a Piano but You Can't Tuna Fish".
Lol, that's my favourite in session bad joke ever!
Old 24th September 2011
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
"intersample peaks" are, as we all know, a way of visualising the shape of a waveform when all we have are the taken samples. For those late to the thread, OAG is simply arguing against the terminology - he's not actually arguing with how digital audio works. In short, he's being pedantic.

swim is technically right. No one mentioned digital samples (you ASSumed that, to quote your own insults). Matter is digital at a quantum level; air molecules are finite in number, even particles on a tape are finite. So yes - there are "samples" in the analogue domain.

Again, it's a pedantic point, but you'd appreciate that wouldn't you?
woooohoooo

now we can talk about quantum audio f/x
Old 24th September 2011
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swim View Post
They exist on both sides of the system.

Furthermore, a conversion system properly contemplates analog and digital "domains" simultaneously, as one. You efforts to "un-relate" analog and digital for no other reason than to try to manufacture support for your erroneous line of reasoning is improper. They both appear in continuity in the system.

We comprehend what you are trying to say. We say you are wrong. It is as simple as that.

Also, you might want to try to understand that you mindlessly repeating the same misconceptions and erroneous information over and over again, in all caps [or whatever], does not make any of it true. Its not that you are only guilty of being absurdly pedantic [which you obviously are]. You are flat-out wrong about things. Period.
you are confused

digital samples exist only in the digital domain
analog signal exists only in the analog domain

a/d and d/a are the wormhole/portals/stargates that
transform between different domains

digital never exists in the analog domain
analog never exists in the digital domain
Old 24th September 2011
  #99
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
you are confused

digital samples exist only in the digital domain
analog signal exists only in the analog domain

a/d and d/a are the wormhole/portals/stargates that
transform between different domains

digital never exists in the analog domain
analog never exists in the digital domain
Do you think that the conveyed audio information still exists after capture into analog electrical form, stops existing at AD, and then comes back into existence at the DA stage?
Old 24th September 2011
  #100
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DaveUK's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
for one final time

INTERSAMPLE PEAKS DO NOT EXIST
CAN NOT EXIST
THEY ARE A MYTH

in the digital domain you have samples
there is nothing between the samples
hence metaphysically impossible to have peaks between them

in the analog domain there are NO samples
with no samples it is metaphysically impossible to have anything intersample let alone peaks

this nonsense jargon got started by people who confuse the digital and analog domains and do not understand that they are completely separate and unrelated except as defined by a specific a/d and d/a device. there being many such devices with different capabilities it is metaphysically impossible to even relate in any meaningful way a digital binary value to an analog domain voltage value.

furthermore there is NO intersample peak PROBLEM.
This is another myth done by the real time broadcast folks who cannot accurately predict the analog signal while still in the digital domain.
lets hope it is the final time heh
Old 24th September 2011
  #101
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woodhenge's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by swim View Post
That is incorrect.

Sorry... just trying to inject some snide humor, hence the heh

What you say makes total sense given the whole A/D -> D/A conversion process.

Old 24th September 2011
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Do you think that the conveyed audio information still exists after capture into analog electrical form, stops existing at AD, and then comes back into existence at the DA stage?
information exists in many forms
even on the surface of a black hole
the information exists in digital samples but only in the digital domain
the same information recurs in the analog domain in analog form but without any samples in that domain
Old 24th September 2011
  #103
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
information exists in many forms
even on the surface of a black hole
the information exists in digital samples but only in the digital domain
the same information recurs in the analog domain in analog form but without any samples in that domain
Absolutely. but we've never said anything difference - remember we go to great pains to use the term "reference" and "equivalence".
Old 25th September 2011
  #104
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
information exists in many forms
even on the surface of a black hole
the information exists in digital samples but only in the digital domain
the same information recurs in the analog domain in analog form but without any samples in that domain
[bold added]

I'm sorry. Let's get this straight. I'd like you to give me a straight answer to what should be a simple question.

Does the bandlimited information conveyed in the analog signal stop existing when that signal is transduced into the digital domain and does it then turn back into information after DA?

Or does the information continue to exist as signal passes through the digital domain -- in the form of sample values and the mathematical formulae that will then be used for DA reconstruction of the signal in the analog domain?


It seems to me that samples -- by themselves -- do not comprise signal.

Only in combination with the formulae used for the process of DA reconstruction, do they comprise signal. And I would also maintain that that signal contains the information in the original bandlimited analog signal, peaks and all, assuming proper function of our gear.
Old 25th September 2011
  #105
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Old Goat's Avatar
 

Game, set, and match.
Old 25th September 2011
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
[bold added]

I'm sorry. Let's get this straight. I'd like you to give me a straight answer to what should be a simple question.

Does the bandlimited information conveyed in the analog signal stop existing when that signal is transduced into the digital domain and does it then turn back into information after DA?

Or does the information continue to exist as signal passes through the digital domain -- in the form of sample values and the mathematical formulae that will then be used for DA reconstruction of the signal in the analog domain?


It seems to me that samples -- by themselves -- do not comprise signal.

Only in combination with the formulae used for the process of DA reconstruction, do they comprise signal. And I would also maintain that that signal contains the information in the original bandlimited analog signal, peaks and all, assuming proper function of our gear.
the numerical values of the digital samples contain all the information needed to recreate the original signal back in the analog domain the samples exist only in the digital domain do not confuse information about a signal with the signal itself
Old 25th September 2011
  #107
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
the numerical values of the digital samples contain all the information needed to recreate the original signal back in the analog domain the samples exist only in the digital domain do not confuse information about a signal with the signal itself
Absolutely right - nobody has said otherwise. The REFERENCES are what we've been discussing.
Old 25th September 2011
  #108
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Mixxology's Avatar
 

The famous decibel (dB), well thats the measure of sound level. I see it everyday. A gun shot is like 140db. Its funny I was in a session and we where using 4 Genelecs 1038B 15in, with the subs its like listening to a shootout all day. Ear plugs the next day!

Mixx Production (Mixxology) Music Producer_Audio Engineer - Mixxology
Old 25th September 2011
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixxology View Post
The famous decibel (dB), well thats the measure of sound level. I see it everyday. A gun shot is like 140db.

More like the measure of levels.. meaning that it's not exclusively used for sound but also for voltage, current, power and so on.

When talking about sound pressure levels and using dB (not db) you must always include the info SPL otherwise the info is incomplete, so dB SPL it is.


/Peter
Old 25th September 2011
  #110
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
the numerical values of the digital samples contain all the information needed to recreate the original signal back in the analog domain the samples exist only in the digital domain do not confuse information about a signal with the signal itself
That's absurd as it stands.

The samples do not contain all the information needed to recreate the original signal. The are simply a set of discrete values -- without the all important context of knowing the sample rate, reference values, and, of course the analog reconstruction formulae.

You seem to be suggesting that signal only exists in one format. An electrical current is not sound but it is signal in its understood context. Just as the digital signal is, well, signal.

Signal -- the conveyance of coherent, organized information --does not suddenly stop existing at AD and start up at DA. lt's an absurd proposition.



BTW, one thing that's been in the back of my mind on this...

Since you are so fired up over the 'misuse' of common language you perceive in the term of art intersample peak -- why haven't we seen a big campaign on your part on the putatively parallel misuse or reinvention of analog/analogue to talk about a specific sort of analogous information, in contravention of the word's basic definition.

After all, the use of analog to refer not simply to something that is similar to something else (the original 'dictionary' definition before the digital era) but to something that represents something else with a continuous information stream and not through discrete data points and reconstruction is a relatively recent neologism -- a term of art more arbitrary and removed, to my way of thinking, from original meaning than the term intersample peak.
Old 25th September 2011
  #111
Old 25th September 2011
  #112
These are the same folks (AES) that at the 1992 convention came to the conclusion that analog circuit design is now perfect so we don't need to address that anymore, just go out and write some code...

Very helpful people at AES, if you are a code writer.

If they make the huge mistake of skipping LA every 2 years, what's to stop minor errors?
Old 25th September 2011
  #113
Gear Head
 

The thing about 'DBs' is that they are absolutely crucial to doctors behinds. Have you ever noticed how doctors always bend in a slightly awkward manner when they are getting out of the shower? Thats because obviously, there shower is analog. The only thing digital in this day and age is ten pound notes. Its just plain ****ing square (wave).

Its a shame no-one here can make a good record. Your all sitting on your arse on this ****ing forum. Go and repair showers.

At least have an orgasm once a year. It would sort out a lot of problems.

Thanks, Denzil Washington. X
Old 25th September 2011
  #114
Quote:
Originally Posted by mad_octopus View Post
The thing about 'DBs' is that they are absolutely crucial to doctors behinds. Have you ever noticed how doctors always bend in a slightly awkward manner when they are getting out of the shower? Thats because obviously, there shower is analog. The only thing digital in this day and age is ten pound notes. Its just plain ****ing square (wave).

Its a shame no-one here can make a good record. Your all sitting on your arse on this ****ing forum. Go and repair showers.

At least have an orgasm once a year. It would sort out a lot of problems.

Thanks, Denzil Washington. X
And then there are folks whose purpose seems to be to simply waste everyone's time...

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Old 25th September 2011
  #115
Gear Head
 

Shawadeewadee. Go figure...
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