The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Does two mics on one acoustic = mono??
Old 12th September 2011
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Does two mics on one acoustic = mono??

So I've been thinking of how best to do my acoustic stuff.

I've been using two mics and hard panning one L and one R.

Now that I think about it, isn't that essentially mono and the guitar is right up the middle again?
Old 12th September 2011
  #2
Lives for gear
No, centered in the sound field is not necessarily the same as mono. If you panned them both directly in the center and bussed them to a mono output, that would be mono.
Old 12th September 2011
  #3
Lives for gear
 
camerondye's Avatar
 

It's only mono if the 2 signals being recorded and panned are 100% the same and they can't be because they are recorded from different places even if it's an inch.

Spread the mics to do different things and you will get a better stereo picture.
Ex1 - one mic and 12th fret, one at the bridge area
Ex2 - record in MS
Ex3 - record one in front of guitar, one mic over players shoulder
Old 12th September 2011
  #4
Lives for gear
 

added to that list is eric valentine's technique of placing a mic above and below the fretboard. mic above captures the low strings, mic below captures the high string. more of a piano stereo image.
Old 12th September 2011
  #5
Lives for gear
 
ears2thesky's Avatar
Hard-panned left and right would be stereo with the width of the image being determined by the spacing of the mics. Panned right on top of each other would basically be mono regardless of where it sits in the stereo field.
Using two mics on a single source for tonal variety and panning them together is a very common technique. This is where you'll notice phase cancellation issues the most.
Old 12th September 2011
  #6
Gear Maniac
 

Thanks for the replies guys, i think where Im stumped is this...

During some verses, I'd like just one guitar to be playing (one mic I mean) then during the chorus, I'd like to have my two mics panned wide, but for the verse, where would I pan a single mono acoustic track?

I feel it would be lopsided if I went to one side or the other ya know...

straight up the middle? would I have to put in pan automation for choruses then?
Old 12th September 2011
  #7
Lives for gear
 
camerondye's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kleraudio View Post
I feel it would be lopsided if I went to one side or the other ya know...
Use automation, I'm guessing you are using a DAW and not tape so automate the panning for those sections. Put the vocal on one side and the guitar on the other or play a pad for the other side if you want the vocals down the center. Choosing what you do is what makes your art different from everybody else's and you shouldn't do what other people tell you...do what you think sounds good.
Old 12th September 2011
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by kleraudio View Post
Thanks for the replies guys, i think where Im stumped is this...

During some verses, I'd like just one guitar to be playing (one mic I mean) then during the chorus, I'd like to have my two mics panned wide, but for the verse, where would I pan a single mono acoustic track?

I feel it would be lopsided if I went to one side or the other ya know...

straight up the middle? would I have to put in pan automation for choruses then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by camerondye View Post
Use automation, I'm guessing you are using a DAW and not tape so automate the panning for those sections. Put the vocal on one side and the guitar on the other or play a pad for the other side if you want the vocals down the center. Choosing what you do is what makes your art different from everybody else's and you shouldn't do what other people tell you...do what you think sounds good.
to me, nothing feels weirder or less natural than when a "static" source like a guitar or voice moves in the mix. Examples - evanescence "bring me to life" - single tracked guitar in a break, suddenly swings out to double tracked in the verses...another example (don't kill me for this) Ozzy+Kelly osbourne "changes" - in the chorus duet section the voices suddenly move hard left and hard right.

Nothing wrong with having a guitar mainly on one side, then doubling up for the choruses - as cameron says, just balance it with something else, or get the width in the chorus from something else.
Old 12th September 2011
  #9
Gear Maniac
 

Are you guys familiar with ray lamontagne recordings? This is the vibe I'm striving for!

Sounds like stereo tracked acoustic on most of it though. Is that common practice?
Old 12th September 2011
  #10
Lives for gear
 

You could try recording the guitar M/S. Use the mid for verses and bring up the side(s) for widening in the choruses.

I like experimenting with M/S recording. It's easy to set up, get a good sound, control width, and there aren't phase issues. I think it's fun.
Old 12th September 2011
  #11
Lives for gear
 
camerondye's Avatar
 

I just opened up "Trouble" and it sounds like all the acoustics are panned to the right and in mono. Then they balanced it out with percussion or high hat or snare. Listen to his albums with headphones on and find out where they are panning everything...it will give you some listening practice anyway.

PS. I'm listening to "Till The Sun Turns Black" and the acoustic is panned to the right also. On "God Willin" they change things around a lot.
Old 12th September 2011
  #12
Lives for gear
 
vernier's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kleraudio View Post
Thanks for the replies guys, i think where Im stumped is this...

During some verses, I'd like just one guitar to be playing (one mic I mean) then during the chorus, I'd like to have my two mics panned wide, but for the verse, where would I pan a single mono acoustic track?

I feel it would be lopsided if I went to one side or the other ya know...

straight up the middle? would I have to put in pan automation for choruses then?
I'd do just that ...one mic for verse, add second mic for chorus, and pan them wide. Probably would make the song somewhat interesting.
.
.
Old 12th September 2011
  #13
Gear Maniac
 

Very cool stuff guys! Now how to record in M/S... and yea Ive been listening to "God Willing" album a lot lately, and it seems very big yet still intimate...

How does one set up M/S? Time to research

Jim
Old 12th September 2011
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

ahhh, looks like i need a figure 8 mic to do this...

Any suggestions?
Old 12th September 2011
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Old Goat's Avatar
 

I set up M/S with an AT4050 and an Oktava M-012.
Old 12th September 2011
  #16
Gear Maniac
 

How bout that MXL r144? seems to get good reviews, and is a perfect mic for learning this M/S miking stuff...

Whatya guys say?
Old 12th September 2011
  #17
Lives for gear
 
jmikeperkins's Avatar
If the flip from one mic mono to 2 mics stereo on the chorus does not work or sound right, I would consider leaving the one mic mono alone (let it play through the whole song) but then double the acoustic for the chorus. You would record 2 separate mono tracks, try and get the 2 to match as close as possible, and then pan them hard right and left so you would have 3 guitar tracks for the chorus and the 1 constant mono track down the middle for the whole song. If that does not sound right, then use a different guitar (and/or mic) for the doubled parts for the chorus so you could separate them in your mind when you hear all 3 together. Otherwise, three tracks of the same part, same guitar etc. might just sound louder for the chorus but not different enough.
Old 12th September 2011
  #18
Lives for gear
 
ears2thesky's Avatar
I use M/S for drum overheads all the time, but not so much for acoustic guitar unless: a) it's a very sparse arrangement, and/or b) I want to hear the room.
Otherwise: two mics at different points of the instrument blended to taste in mono.
Old 12th September 2011
  #19
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ears2thesky View Post
I use M/S for drum overheads all the time, but not so much for acoustic guitar unless: a) it's a very sparse arrangement, and/or b) I want to hear the room.
Otherwise: two mics at different points of the instrument blended to taste in mono.
So if its just acoustic and vocals, youre going with M/S miking??

Thats pretty much what im trying to record right now, probably 5 or 6 songs like that. Just acoustic and vox....

Should I drop a C note to get an R144 so I can do that M/S technique? Would it benefit my recording?

If I do choose mono, I just hate to stick the guitar right up the middle, but I think thats the only way it'd work.... and not sound lopsided..
Old 12th September 2011
  #20
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by kleraudio View Post
Are you guys familiar with ray lamontagne recordings? This is the vibe I'm striving for!
Well, you picked a mighty one. I'm a big fan of the asymmetrical sound stage, and it is quite an art to pan all the instruments hard L and R and then make it all add up to something coherent. Trouble is a fantastic example. Planning for that starts with the arrangement, otherwise you can end up with "holes" when an instrument stops playing & there is suddenly nothing coming out of one speaker.

Other good examples are pretty much any track on Mutations (Beck), or Song for the Dead (Queens of the Stone Age) where the drums all suddenly go to the left channel after the intro. Also pretty much any 1950s-1960s Rudy Van Gelder......

Quote:
Originally Posted by j2dafo View Post
added to that list is eric valentine's technique of placing a mic above and below the fretboard. mic above captures the low strings, mic below captures the high string. more of a piano stereo image.
Wow, that's a new one for me, brilliant. Will try it sometime!!!
Old 12th September 2011
  #21
Lives for gear
 
suedesound's Avatar
 

my random idea, keep the panning scheme you have but instead of muting the other mic try turning it down for the verses so its kind of there but in the background then bringing it up for the choruses. may sound more natural and you won't just lose a side completely for the verses. the best idea i've seen on here is to have a mono track through the whole thing then a double panned out stereo for the chorus.
Old 13th September 2011
  #22
Lives for gear
I did a project recently that the OP's description reminded me of. I set up a mid-side pair and positioned the guitarist dead center front and ran through the song a couple of times. Then I placed him to the left, about 15 degrees forward of looking directly into the side mic and he did his chorus and harmonic parts. Then I moved him to the opposite side and recorded some riffs to make the dynamic sections more dynamic. I'm not done with it yet, but so far, it's sounding really good.
Old 13th September 2011
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Outlaw Hans's Avatar
 

It´s different from mono. Although I do like mono guitars recording it in stereo leaves more room for the leads vocals which can be a huge plus. That Valentine tricks works great! It is somewhat too good to be true though which is often just what you want. Like there´s two guitars playing. XY on the 12th fret can work great and may be less of an effect.
Old 13th September 2011
  #24
Lives for gear
 
Ron Vogel's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by j2dafo View Post
added to that list is eric valentine's technique of placing a mic above and below the fretboard. mic above captures the low strings, mic below captures the high string. more of a piano stereo image.
I realize that he has way more experience than I...but that sounds plain silly to me.

x/y I can understand...I prefer a dynamic and condenser...different recipies for the same dinner I spose
Old 13th September 2011
  #25
Lives for gear
 
Cornvalley's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Vogel View Post
I realize that he has way more experience than I...but that sounds plain silly to me.

x/y I can understand...I prefer a dynamic and condenser...different recipies for the same dinner I spose
Try it, then you'll realize it's not so silly.
Old 13th September 2011
  #26
Gear Maniac
 

Whatya guys think of the CAD m179? Was thinking about getting it as a workhorse type mic.... that also has a figure 8 polar pattern for experimenting with M/S...

Was looking at the MXL r144, but thats only a figure 8, so I dont know if I'd get much use out of it other than M/S'ing acoustics, I'd probably try vocals on it too..

Somewhere I've read that the M179 is trying to be an AKG 414, is this true?
Top Mentioned Products
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump