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if higher sample rate doesnt matter then why .... Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 13th September 2011
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I'm all but beside myself.
Actually, my take is that there are others standing beside you on this.
Old 13th September 2011
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
and i know what i dont know
Suitably oxymoronic.
Old 13th September 2011
  #213
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DaveUK's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
Some have derided my observation that higher sample rates do improve quality.

So if higher sample rates do not matter then why would a vendor produce this new DAC?

Phasure NOS1 24/768 async USB :

Asynchronous USB with maximum input of 32 bit 768KHz.
Output : 24/768 max. All further sample rates supported.

So feel free to tell me why they andor I are idiots for believing that higher sample rates are better.

Sun spots?


should this be in the new gear listing too ?
more info at
Phasure NOS1 24/768 async USB DAC


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Old 13th September 2011
  #214
Gear Maniac
 

dont worry ocean...these guys seem to spend all their time cutting down a solid piece of advice...I personally am not even gonna look at that product...DSD and my own personal experience with various sample rates is enough to know 100% that higher sample rates can yeild better results...


narcs over ther loves to call people on sentence structure...psycho monkey loves to call people on anything even if he's said the exact same thing in a previous thread...blue is the guy at the table that prides himself at being the one to always look at things "from a different angle"...it's all pretty boring really...this place is pretty nutty actually...to put it into perspective have a look at some of the footage of the GS party or find some footage of Ethan and friends doing some scientific converter research...or have a look at some footage of GS' fav mastering guys spouting off at how great they are....the difference in the way people come off and what they are in reality is...hillarious...it seems anyone can lay claim to production credits on anything that may have even passed by their 003 for a minute ....have a look at this one...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qHjnXUGM4o....wow..."this piano just has its own unique charm..." wow...this guy sure thinks he's special...came across this looking fo PT stuff and LMAO for an hour....the intro in the hot car was what did it for me....take everything here with a major grain of salt
Old 13th September 2011
  #215
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaSmile View Post

narcs over ther loves to call people on sentence structure...
erm. No I don't. YOu can write a poorly spelled or grammatically incorrect sentence all you like. Doesn't bother me (I've defended people on this basis) - I mean, fer feks sake - my posts aren't well written at all.

I call people on scientific mis-facts and audio myths. That's all.

Higher sample rates? All for them but for the right reasons a la Lavry.
Old 13th September 2011
  #216
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DaveUK's Avatar
Ding !round two fee fi fo fum
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Old 13th September 2011
  #217
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narcoman's Avatar
 

too right! I feel like bashing some heads.....heh


although I have to say - the last two months in this place have become really ****ty. Some of the new recruits are just mouthy twats (not you Lisa - you seem cool but a little brassy)..... If it carries on I reckon I'll have to stop hanging here - which would be a shame since I met two of my past employees through here!! Katz and Lavry stopped hanging here because of such twatiness..... I'm kinda beginning to see their point.
Old 14th September 2011
  #218
Gear Maniac
 

brassy?...I can live with that I think...Ok maybe not you...but seriously chexk out the guy in that video...what a crock of baloney that is...
Old 14th September 2011
  #219
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaSmile View Post
brassy?...I can live with that I think...Ok maybe not you...but seriously chexk out the guy in that video...what a crock of baloney that is...
Will do!!

well - it's not that bad! It's ego driven, sure. But he's got a track record to back it up!! I don't like his work (but neither could I do it - wrong thang) but heck - he's got a CV as long as yer arm..... Egos..... just let em flow over ya.... heh
Old 14th September 2011
  #220
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Old Goat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
too right! I feel like bashing some heads.....heh


although I have to say - the last two months in this place have become really ****ty. Some of the new recruits are just mouthy twats (not you Lisa - you seem cool but a little brassy)..... If it carries on I reckon I'll have to stop hanging here - which would be a shame since I met two of my past employees through here!! Katz and Lavry stopped hanging here because of such twatiness..... I'm kinda beginning to see their point.
If I wasn't still learning useful things on occasion, I'd...

Aw, hell, I can't resist a good trainwreck, and this has been a doozy!
Old 14th September 2011
  #221
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
erm. No I don't. YOu can write a poorly spelled or grammatically incorrect sentence all you like. Doesn't bother me (I've defended people on this basis) - I mean, fer feks sake - my posts aren't well written at all.

I call people on scientific mis-facts and audio myths. That's all.

Higher sample rates? All for them but for the right reasons a la Lavry.

Lavry deosn't produce records, but his converters and science is pretty good...but I disagree with a few of his "suggestions"...namely clocking strategy
Old 14th September 2011
  #222
Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaSmile View Post
dont worry ocean...these guys seem to spend all their time cutting down a solid piece of advice...I personally am not even gonna look at that product...DSD and my own personal experience with various sample rates is enough to know 100% that higher sample rates can yeild better results..
Yawn...have you even read ANY of the thread? of captain crazy talking about his own peculiar world of digital audio? where sinc functions don't exist, where intersample peaks are not what the rest of the digital audio community understands them to be...for the nth time, no-one is debating the point of higher sample rates! The OP is simply stirring, and continues to, and you're helping.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaSmile View Post
....psycho monkey loves to call people on anything even if he's said the exact same thing in a previous thread...
If you're gonna say that, please back it up. Or delete and apologise. I'm waiting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaSmile View Post
the difference in the way people come off and what they are in reality is...it seems anyone can lay claim to production credits on anything that may have even passed by their 003 for a minute
I've never claimed to be anything other than what I am - a working, freelance engineer, with a healthy amount of experience and a lot of sessions under my belt.

I've not produced a Platinum selling album, I've not won a Grammy. I have engineered a few chart successes in different territories, I've definitely worked with some of the best names in the UK scene past and present (Hugh Pagham, Chris Sheldon, Mike Hedges, Mike Crossey, James Ford) and with some of the bigger UK and international bands. If you want proof of this, just PM me. I like to stay semi-anonymous on here, but I'm really not very hard to find.

Likewise with other posters on here - I know exactly who narco is, respect his opinion because I know his background is exactly what he says it to be!

As it happens, exactly the same accusation could be levelled at you....except the difference is, your posts have a healthy degree of trolling involved, something I've never done (and if you disagree, again post some examples please). I'd argue you're doing that on this very thread, supporting the OP who is quite simply arguing for the sake of it - and not doing it very coherently. I guess I'd agree with narco that you DO seem to at least know what you're talking about, which I definitely can't say the same for OAG (and if he does, he's hiding it behind pedantry and stubborness to admit he's not explaining what he means), but by backing up the noise-generating posters, it definitely affects others' opinions of you.
Old 14th September 2011
  #223
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Let's ALL take a suck on this big fat reefer...


shhhhhhh


hmmmmmmmmmmmmm yeah

calm calm calm calm calm
heh
Old 14th September 2011
  #224
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Let's ALL take a suck on this big fat reefer...


shhhhhhh


hmmmmmmmmmmmmm yeah

calm calm calm calm calm
heh
heh indeed....
Old 14th September 2011
  #225
Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaSmile View Post
it seems anyone can lay claim to production credits on anything that may have even passed by their 003 for a minute ....have a look at this one...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qHjnXUGM4o....wow..."this piano just has its own unique charm..." wow...this guy sure thinks he's special...came across this looking fo PT stuff and LMAO for an hour....the intro in the hot car was what did it for me....take everything here with a major grain of salt


Oy. In addition to having one of the better resumes on GS (in terms of commerciality, at least) this guy is one of the most generous with his time, shares a ton of info, and even took the time to critique a large-scale mix-off with a bunch of folks here. Frankly, you're totally off-base and outta line on this one. If you haven't heard of Ken or his work, that's your problem; the dude is as real a deal as it gets.
Old 14th September 2011
  #226
Every time I read this thread I throw up in my keyboard a little bit.
Old 14th September 2011
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
The sampling rate has to be greater than 2f. No real-world implementation allows anything else. Nyquist doesn't fail.

sinc is everywhere in hardware. Where do you get this idea? Does it go on to +/- infinity? No, but truncating the response is trivial.



The signal is always band-limited. Always. It's a basic requirement for sampled data systems, whether audio, video, MRI machines, whatever.


DC
for the theorem to hold it has to be >2f
but the theorem only fails at one point if it is =2f

to prove the theorem you do need >
in practice it would work the same at =2f
but you really need more like 20f to get good results due to practical hardware limitatins
Old 14th September 2011
  #228
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
[material currently in red above was inserted as bold/black into the body of my quotes by oldeanalogueguy]

So, when you cite some audiophile gear company making what seem to be fabulist claims about their product, we're supposed to accept that as proof of the validity of your concerns.

But when others cite authoritative sources like the folks at Solid State Logic (who've crafted some of the most respected analog and digital designs around) or converter design legend Dan Lavry (who was designing digital data converters for medical equipment even before the effective beginning of the digital audio era), those widely respected sources are not to be trusted?

And I guess we're supposed to accept your own claim that you got good reviews from students -- students of an unknown subject matter, at that, unless I missed that detail above somewhere -- as convincing evidence of your knowledge and grasp of the facts at hand here?

Talk about boundless faith in expert authority, eh?



PS... I don't know how you think multi-quote is supposed to work -- since you cited its dysfunction as an excuse for mangling quotes by others in the fashion described above -- but it most certainly does work and is how I included the quotes in this post. (Although the quote-within-quote had to be inserted by hand. And, of course, I changed the material you inserted into my quote to red for clarity's sake.)

multiquote on GS does not work with my pc with xppro and firefox

GS has a number of bugs
some pages wont even format correctly just entering text
Old 14th September 2011
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
I'll cut you a break for that one cus you're new round here - but most know my background.....


You're being pedantic! An FIR filter is an implementation of a sinc function (limited cus of COURSE we can't go on for infinity). One can build those!!! One can build DA converters which use an implementation of a sinc function. Of COURSE we rely on making finite that which (in theory) is infinite. But - duh - that's what we do with all bandlimiting and DSP processing.


It's FAR from crude, and if you do know anything about this topic (I've a PhD in signals for satellite - involves this maths exactly - and lead researcher for the Virtuosi project sponsored by BT, GEC and BICC) you know that.

And dear chap, I can match you as lecturer as well. In maths. In Nottingham for many years before going pro in music. C'mon - it's all gone a bit arse biscuit here!!! Your well made points are becoming lost in your boot pissing!
pedantic?
no
i am accurate (i was a mathematician in grad school)
and my brother in law is a lawyer
you have to be accurate or you lose

FIR may approximate sinc for your purposes
but it is not a sinc
Old 14th September 2011
  #230
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
Hey everyone ...

///

On a more serious note, oldanalogueguy, do you have any old lecture prep material that you could use in this discussion? Surely it would consist of more clearly arranged arguments than your posts, and as such would be pretty useful for us as well as you right?
i have lectured in simple math to liberal arts majors
and calculus to engineering majors
infosystems and data communications to undergrads
systems engineering to juniors
project management to grad students as asst dean
and shepherded the masters paper for grad students

i was thinking of writing a book on audio using pcs
but not going to do it until i am sure i can sell enough to make it worth while

so sorry no notes on nyquist ready to publish
I do have my old textbooks where we went through and proved every theorem related to it
Old 14th September 2011
  #231
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
but you really need more like 20f to get good results due to practical hardware limitatins
Thats why I sample hotdogs at the rate of .441Mhz! Whenever I eat 960000 hotdogs per second, I hear this antialiasing sound... when people pull my finger...
Old 14th September 2011
  #232
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
LOL

a couple points:

>when Nyquist proposed his theory, the idea of digitizing audio never entered his mind (it was 20 years later that Shannon and others provided mathematical proof of the theorem, and discussed sampling and reconstruction)

>the theory is an idealization; its underlying conditions don't exist in nature

>success in the music industry does not ensure that one is an authority on any given technical subject... I've read and heard BIG names state things quite unequivocally that were popular shibboleths, but which were totally incorrect

>I'm confused by a strange overall disconnect here at gearslutz... on the one hand, we have many people insisting that "analog is better..." and then some of the same people insisting that "higher sample rates are better." I'm sure I'm not the only one that sees the problem underlying this dichotomy (for more, read up on slew rate, for example)

>in the end, it's all pretty much pedantry, especially if your song sucks
Old 14th September 2011
  #233
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
an invalid nyquist signal
I still don't know what that means
Old 14th September 2011
  #234
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
Questions for no one in particular...

On a scale of 1 to 100, how much awesomeness do your current recordings embody?

How much more awesomeness would they embody if you could suddenly record at 10x the sample rate and nothing else changed?

How much more awesomeness would they embody if you spent a week recording and mixing with another engineer who is at least as good as you?

Forest, meet trees.


Gregory Scott - ubk
as usual, Scott -- brilliant
Old 14th September 2011
  #235
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArnieInTheSky View Post
You have no effin' idea what you're talking about. Saying a Sausage is better than a Hotdog is like intersample peaks oozing out of a well designed A-D convertor. Don't be ridiculous with your statements on this board. This is public domain and there are several people reading this garbage and they know. THEY KNOW! This topic is bull-schnitzel.
Oh man, LMFAO!
Old 14th September 2011
  #236
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
i was thinking of writing a book on audio using pcs
but not going to do it until i am sure i can sell enough to make it worth while
t
Very low sale area so be sure before you do!
Old 14th September 2011
  #237
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
FIR may approximate sinc for your purposes
but it is not a sinc

for ALL implemented purposes. That's the point.
Old 14th September 2011
  #238
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dcollins's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
pedantic?
FIR may approximate sinc for your purposes
but it is not a sinc
Of course it is. A windowed sinc function. Basic stuff.

It does not go on forever, if that's your point. By now, I'm even not sure what my point is, but you say a lot of weird stuff.

Didn't you lecture about the Parks-McClellan method?


DC
Old 14th September 2011
  #239
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Bristol_Jonesey's Avatar
Quote:
and my brother in law is a lawyer
And that relates how in your genes?
Old 14th September 2011
  #240
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DaveUK's Avatar
My first cousin once removed recorded The Stones..
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