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if higher sample rate doesnt matter then why .... Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 23rd September 2011
  #601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
Hey now, you're confusing the digital and analogue domains!
nope

that was a joke of sorts
the idiots trying for LOUDER
seem to try to go over 0dBFS
and they succeed way too much and clip the signal
Old 23rd September 2011
  #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug hazelrigg View Post
Please explain to me how one goes about making a "better" clock that can defy the laws of physics... or a better anything for that matter
dont have to defy the laws of gravity or anything

ask nasa if you want to build a better clock
it is just a matter of money and will to do it

the stuff in commercial products is severely limited
and could be greatly improved if you would spend the money
Old 23rd September 2011
  #603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug hazelrigg View Post
sounds like the guy that was on tv
wormhole or similar show interviewed him
and went over the theory lightly
I remember E8 (a Lie group (pronounced lEE group)

even if it works
i suspect they will find more things beyond it that they have to figure out
Old 23rd September 2011
  #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug hazelrigg View Post
and that's the argument I make against using really high fs like 192khz etc, because as the machine operates more and more quickly, clock stability is compromised, and voltage is not as precisely measured... and it has nothing to do with "the state of the technology" -- it's a real physical limitation that simply cannot be overcome (unless there's some as-yet-undiscovered "warp field" equivalent in the audio realm )
clock stability is clock stability
it does not change
run the sampling faster
and the errors become more siginificant

make the clock good enough
and you can run at the machines max sample rate
with no problems

there are physical limitatins
and audio a/d/a has not run into them
only money limitations based on profit motives
and consumer demand for better
Old 23rd September 2011
  #605
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
No no! The modulator, the actual sampling element itself, is running at the rates I mention and the output of this modulator gets decimated to the base rate. All modern converter chips work this way.
Okay. But (and I'm holding on here for dear life like someone else we know ) am I not correct in ASSerting that as the sampling element operates faster and faster, past a certain threshold, each measurement of voltage becomes increasingly less accurate? I mean, I'm no physicist or engineer, but I think it just has to. No?
Old 23rd September 2011
  #606
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
not quite true

there is a point where jitter or voltage resolution etc
negate the value of higher sampling rates
but you can sample higher than 192 if you want to spend the money to make better circuits
But see, I think THAT'S not quite true... improved tech helps up to a point, but then one hits something a ceiling due to physical law and properties of matter. A convertor, in all of it's components -- hardware, firmware, everything -- is still a physical machine with real-world limitations that will never be overcome
Old 23rd September 2011
  #607
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minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
how is what possible
really helps everybody if you quote the previous you are replying to
Cute.....

See if you can spot it if you actually read it this time. Here is the Single Post view.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/7055313-post585.html

And in case you are not tech savvy enough to click on a link, how's a bout little pic.
Attached Images
Old 23rd September 2011
  #608
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dcollins's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
the stuff in commercial products is severely limited
and could be greatly improved if you would spend the money
What changes would you recommend to greatly improve today's designs?

Cost-no-object.


DC
Old 23rd September 2011
  #609
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post

there are physical limitatins
and audio a/d/a has not run into them
only money limitations based on profit motives
and consumer demand for better
True enough - but even NASA will tell you that there is a limit to spending!!

Current tech limits better AD/DAs but current possible tech |(ie that which we COULD build but isn't commercially viable) would certainly be technically better. With appropriate physical operational limitations removed then any sample rate you like will be super duper - but then why would you want to go PCM if you could build systems that could handle DSD (or similar) better?
Old 23rd September 2011
  #610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
the stuff in commercial products is severely limited
and could be greatly improved if you would spend the money
The guy selling fruit and veggies down at the local market has a 1kg weight for his old fashioned mechanical scale. The weight (as compared to the national reference weight) is actually 1.0007kg though.

Would the guy make more money, would the bananas taste better, would the customers be happier (and so on..) if he took $1000 to buy a new weight which was certified to 1.00002kg by the NOCFAVD* association?

*National obsessive compulsive fruit and veggie dealers



/Peter
Old 23rd September 2011
  #611
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
but then why would you want to go PCM if you could build systems that could handle DSD (or similar) better?
So that we don't have to use antiquated 1 bit technology. :-D

Alistair
Old 23rd September 2011
  #612
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug hazelrigg View Post
Okay. But (and I'm holding on here for dear life like someone else we know ) am I not correct in ASSerting that as the sampling element operates faster and faster, past a certain threshold, each measurement of voltage becomes increasingly less accurate? I mean, I'm no physicist or engineer, but I think it just has to. No?
Sure but it isn't the case up to 192Khz for all the big brands because the modulators are not going any faster.

I haven't really researched this but I suspect that even any of the so called audiophile ADCs that are marketed to do 384 Khz sampling just use the same basic chips but catch the signal right after the modulator and do their own decimation through a bolted on DSP chip like a Blackfin Processor. In other words, the modulators are running at exactly the same speed as all the other converters.

Alistair
Old 23rd September 2011
  #613
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narcoman's Avatar
 

yup!!
Old 23rd September 2011
  #614
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
So that we don't have to use antiquated 1 bit technology. :-D

Alistair
LOLZ!
Old 23rd September 2011
  #615
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Taking a voltage measurement 192,000 times a second... to paraphrase Dirty Harry: "An ADC has GOT to know it's limitations!"

It takes a discrete amount of time for an op amp, etc to undergo a change in voltage -- it doesn't happen instantaneously... there's a duration of rise and fall, etc. Then, given the device's physical parameters -- size, resistance, design quality, material, it's going to have certain other limitations, a fixed (more or less) number of atoms that all behave according to laws. Again, these limitations have nothing to do with "the current state of technology" or "production quality/costs" but everything to do with the fundamental laws of physics that can't be violated... ever

I know next to nothing about tech, but I assume that the falling precision of a ADC as one increases the rate can actually be predicted, based on the properties of whatever is doing the measuring, as well as incorporating whatever variables apply, especially the nature of what is being measured, as well as how frequently it's being measured
Old 23rd September 2011
  #616
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
That is, unless some sort of "quantum computer" will be able to circumvent these limitations. Then we'll have threads on here that state, "If Infinite sample rates are better, why..."
Old 23rd September 2011
  #617
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TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
I haven't really researched this but I suspect that ...

Alistair
Speculation = ?
Old 23rd September 2011
  #618
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Miniaturization.. Smaller components and shorter signal paths means less capacitance and inductance (where you don't want them) which means faster circuits with higher bandwith so we can expect high precision ultrafast sampling systems in the future. The things is we don't need them for audio though.

The better 24/96 (or thereabouts) converters today (used correctly) pass audio tranparently to those that perform tests controlled, level matched and blind so it's not about accepting compromises and settle for "good enough", digital is mature for audio period.

And even if there are one or two (or 137) individuals that can hear colorations under extreme conditions the extremly small performance gain from even better performance (higher bandwith, less distortion) does not matter to the industry as a whole and not to 99.999% of all music consumers. And that is what counts IMO.. and I'm picky.


/Peter
Old 23rd September 2011
  #619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug hazelrigg View Post
Taking a voltage measurement 192,000 times a second... to paraphrase Dirty Harry: "An ADC has GOT to know it's limitations!"

It takes a discrete amount of time for an op amp, etc to undergo a change in voltage -- it doesn't happen instantaneously... there's a duration of rise and fall, etc. Then, given the device's physical parameters -- size, resistance, design quality, material, it's going to have certain other limitations, a fixed (more or less) number of atoms that all behave according to laws. Again, these limitations have nothing to do with "the current state of technology" or "production quality/costs" but everything to do with the fundamental laws of physics that can't be violated... ever

I know next to nothing about tech, but I assume that the falling precision of a ADC as one increases the rate can actually be predicted, based on the properties of whatever is doing the measuring, as well as incorporating whatever variables apply, especially the nature of what is being measured, as well as how frequently it's being measured
There have been some pretty exciting developments in high speed analog and digital devices in the last decade. I'm hoping they have an impact on A/D/As for audio, and there's no reason they wouldn't other than cost of development or maybe that industry leaders think current devices are good enough (as an excuse to delay spending the development bucks).
Old 23rd September 2011
  #620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
digital is mature for audio period.

/Peter
I will refer you to industry publications in the early 80's that made this claim for the compact disc:

"Perfect sound forever"
Old 23rd September 2011
  #621
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug hazelrigg View Post
Taking a voltage measurement 192,000 times a second...
Let me stop you right there. :-)

All these converters are oversampling converters and take a voltage measurement 6,144,000 times a second. That happens whether the base rate of the converter is set to 48Khz, 96Khz, or 192Khz. (5,644,800 times per second for sample rates of 44.1/88.2/176,4Khz)

This completely invalidates the argument for 192Khz sample rates.

Alistair
Old 23rd September 2011
  #622
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboJets View Post
Speculation = ?
Informed and educated speculation = . That is as long as one makes it perfectly clear that one is speculating.

If you actually have something useful to contribute, please share!

Alistair
Old 23rd September 2011
  #623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syncamorea View Post
I will refer you to industry publications in the early 80's that made this claim for the compact disc:

"Perfect sound forever"
That's a marketing claim, though, certainly not a scientific statement. And it was being made about a format [Redbook CD audio] that -- even at the time -- reasonable people suggested was barely adequate and which has since been supplanted by superior formats like 24/96.

However, the bottom line is that those inarguably superior formats have largely not been adopted, despite their demonstrable technical superiority -- a technical superiority largely uncompromised by the putative real world design/production problems cited by Lavry and others with so-called quad or higher rates.
Old 23rd September 2011
  #624
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TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Informed and educated speculation = . That is as long as one makes it perfectly clear that one is speculating.

If you actually have something useful to contribute, please share!

Alistair
C'mon my friend, seriously...

...there's nothing even remotely useful about this entire thread.

Adding a little reality and humor is the most useful anyone can be here at this point.
Old 23rd September 2011
  #625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syncamorea View Post
I will refer you to industry publications in the early 80's that made this claim for the compact disc:

"Perfect sound forever"
I don't see what a line from a marketing department has to do with the current state of things regarding redbook and high rez.

Early redbook had problems but that was not about the format but about implementations.

Correct antialasing filter, dither, stable clock circuits and SOTA analog circuitry and redbook IS transparent for most listeners and situations.

That's a fact, not an opinion. :-)


/Peter
Old 23rd September 2011
  #626
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug hazelrigg View Post
Taking a voltage measurement 192,000 times a second...
It takes a discrete amount of time for an op amp, etc to undergo a change in voltage -- it doesn't happen instantaneously...
Yep - It's called slew rate.

$0.40 gets you an opamp with a 1V/usec slew rate. $40 gets you a nice BurrBrown that'll do 10V/usec. Steep price curves for steep curves! Still, there's all kinds of surface mount chips all around you amping 2.4ghz and up in a VERY linear fashion...

What would be much harder would be finding a mic that actually captures sound on the order of several hundred khz.
Old 23rd September 2011
  #627
Gear Nut
 

So, I have a question about jitter measurement - think I should start a new thread for it?

<ducking/>
Old 23rd September 2011
  #628
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveDaveDave View Post
So, I have a question about jitter measurement - think I should start a new thread for it?

<ducking/>
How can we take jitter seriously in a universe where some particles can travel faster than the speed of light?
Old 23rd September 2011
  #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
That's a marketing claim, though, certainly not a scientific statement. And it was being made about a format [Redbook CD audio] that -- even at the time -- reasonable people suggested was barely adequate and which has since been supplanted by superior formats like 24/96.

However, the bottom line is that those inarguably superior formats have largely not been adopted, despite their demonstrable technical superiority -- a technical superiority largely uncompromised by the putative real world design/production problems cited by Lavry and others with so-called quad or higher rates.
Obviously, but people believed the CD hype in droves, just like the masses that swallowed 128kbps itunes downloads and apparently were happy with the product. The idea that any current "best available" format has no room for improvement is flawed logic.
Old 23rd September 2011
  #630
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jupiter8's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syncamorea View Post
The idea that any current "best available" format has no room for improvement is flawed logic.
Why ? If no one can hear the difference between the medium and a straight wire,where can you go from there ?
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