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if higher sample rate doesnt matter then why .... Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 22nd September 2011
  #571
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
as to gravity and quantum stuff
you need a 248 dimensional model to unite them
one guy almost has it done

each dimension equates to a particle in his approach

i am wondering if gravity is not really the warping of time
instead of gravity appearing as to slow time down

worse is that we can never know if there are not more universes on our ten dimensional membrane or more universes along the eleventh dimension of quantum theory . what happens when we go to 248 is going to take a while to figure out !!
Actually, I know who you're talking about:

An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Old 22nd September 2011
  #572
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveUK View Post
As long as i divn't sound like Sting te ya :+)
His legend is too big to fit in just one region.

Actually, I'd lost track of where Sting was from. Someplace along the way, I must have made a semi-conscious decision to not store birthplaces with what little biographical detail I keep in my head on various pop stars -- even my favorites (er, not that Sting's among them, but he seems a nice enough guy). And that goes for US pop stars as well.

I mean, I think I remember that Louis Armstrong was born in New Orleans and Rory Gallagher was born in Donnegal and, maybe, Frank Sinatra was from Brooklyn, but that's pretty much it. Well, wait, I'm pretty sure Israel Kamakawiwo'ole was born in Hawaii -- but I couldn't tell you what island. What cities folks are associated with, artistically, I'm better with. Beatles, Liverpool. Jefferson Airplane, San Francisco. Lou Reed... back east* somewhere. heh


*To those of us who were born and grew up in Cali in the mid 20th century, back east somewhere was pretty much the rest of the country -- everything east of Las Vegas.
Old 22nd September 2011
  #573
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DaveUK's Avatar
Oh how i'd love to live in cali if only for a bit of sunshine!! It's cold and rains alot round here .but it's home
Old 22nd September 2011
  #574
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveUK View Post
Oh how i'd love to live in cali if only for a bit of sunshine!! It's cold and rains alot round here .but it's home
This is my home...



... I live about 20 miles and more than a half century away...

You can't get there from here, anymore.

This is where you end up if you try: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll...src=0&t=h&z=13


Granted, like all else in idealized memory (that graphic is modified from an old orange crate sticker), the reality wasn't quite the same. My folks and I did live in a postwar tract house... but there were cow pastures less than 200 yards from my house and, when was a toddler, it was pretty much unbroken pastures, farm fields, and orange groves from there to the ocean in two directions... if you counted hard, you might have been able to find a couple hundred thousand residents in the county. Now, there are over three million.


But wait... the smog was insane. Even though the whole LA/Orange County area was far less populous, the skies were brown, day after day, except when it rained. Even in the winter, when it might not have been so bad, it was aggravated by the burning of so-called smudge pots, which were kerosene stoves scattered through the orange groves during the coldest periods to prevent any chance of freezing. It wasn't until the 70s and 80s when people started getting panicky about the environment and passing laws regulating emissions that things started turning around. The cop show Dragnet was made in both the early 50s and again in the late 60s and the late 60s shows were in color. Week after week, the show opens with Joe Friday intoning, "This is the city..." as the camera pans across a different sprawling suburb or urban industrial zone each week -- always under ugly brown skies. Out of something like 5 seasons of 60's Dragnet on the web, I think there are only ever two blue skies in the opening sequence for any of them.

Tradeoffs.
Old 22nd September 2011
  #575
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Old Goat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
This is my home...



... I live about 20 miles away and more than a half century...

You can't get there from here, anymore.

This is where you end up if you try: Google Maps


Granted, like all else in idealized memory (that graphic is modified from an old orange crate sticker), the reality wasn't quite the same. My folks and I did live in a postwar tract house... but there were cow pastures less than 200 yards from my house and, when was a toddler, it was pretty much unbroken pastures, farm fields, and orange groves from there to the ocean in two directions... if you counted hard, you might have been able to find a couple hundred thousand residents in the county. Now, there are over three million.
My sympathies...
Old 22nd September 2011
  #576
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DaveUK's Avatar
**** ! Ok erm i'm going to bed i'll send you some images of Byker tomorrow .but on the other hamd Northumbria is only 7 or 8 miles if that away:+)
Old 22nd September 2011
  #577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Goat View Post
My sympathies...
Well, I don't live there anymore. But it does have a nice 'old town' area with an old fashioned park in a roundabout.


I actually am lucky enough to live in a pretty nice neighborhood next to a small bay. (Don't get too impressed, I live in a tiny apartment over a garage.) It's literally a two minute walk to the water's edge. The window I look out when I work has gulls and even the occasional pelican flying past. No ocean view -- but nice sunsets over the rooftops.

I was out walking at sunrise a week or two ago (it was this summer's only real hot spell; hot and humid at 5 in the morning) and shot this pic below... that's a complex of islands called Naples across the bay, there. The 1955 Mike Hammer movie "My Gun Is Quick" was partially shot there. You can kind of see the dock of a house where a lot of the action takes place.

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/...1-09-07-sm.jpg
Old 22nd September 2011
  #578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveUK View Post
My groundhog post
was a reference to the 90'S Bill Murray film in which he plays a weatherman .....
He does end up trying to twat a groundhog like in whackamole .if only he'd known the drunk sideways swipe technique he could have made another ghostbusters
they are making another ghostbusters
Old 22nd September 2011
  #579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug hazelrigg View Post
and that's the argument I make against using really high fs like 192khz etc, because as the machine operates more and more quickly, clock stability is compromised, and voltage is not as precisely measured... and it has nothing to do with "the state of the technology" -- it's a real physical limitation that simply cannot be overcome (unless there's some as-yet-undiscovered "warp field" equivalent in the audio realm )
you need better clocks
like the product that started this thread
Old 22nd September 2011
  #580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Considering OAG maintains the entire concept doesn't even exist, someone may want to tell Wolfson Microelectronics, who have long offered a "Anti-Clipping" mode than digitally reduces the signal 2dB prior to D/A conversion.

This is in the chip itself, and it's worth mentioning that you can have all the analog headroom in the world post-DAC, and it wont save you from internal clipping.

Naturally, this takes the ultimate measured performance down by the same amount, but I hear rumors there are lots of masters that run right up to 0dBFS.
DC
you can have meaningless concepts
do they really exist?
way too metaphysically deep for me
does anything really exist

vendors claim lots of bullbleep to sell products

i think i said the d/a design was the problem
reducing the digital is one way to avoid it
raising the rails and setting the digital to be way below peak is another

there is way too much DR and plenty of snr
lowering the digital is much better than loud distorted results

lots of masters run over 0dBFS
and are clipped distorted and otherwise hideous
no d/a design can undo the damage
only avoid adding to it
Old 22nd September 2011
  #581
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
you need better clocks
like the product that started this thread
Please explain to me how one goes about making a "better" clock that can defy the laws of physics... or a better anything for that matter
Old 22nd September 2011
  #582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
lots of masters run over 0dBFS
Hey now, you're confusing the digital and analogue domains!
Old 22nd September 2011
  #583
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minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
lots of masters run over 0dBFS
In your world view, how is this possible?
Old 22nd September 2011
  #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd
Hey now, you're confusing the digital and analogue domains!

Quote:
Originally Posted by minister View Post
In your world view, how is this possible?
heh

Will be interesting to see the response to this!


/Peter
Old 22nd September 2011
  #585
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug hazelrigg View Post
and that's the argument I make against using really high fs like 192khz etc, because as the machine operates more and more quickly, clock stability is compromised, and voltage is not as precisely measured... and it has nothing to do with "the state of the technology" -- it's a real physical limitation that simply cannot be overcome (unless there's some as-yet-undiscovered "warp field" equivalent in the audio realm )
However nice this argument might sound, it isn't valid for most modern converters. I recently checked the specs of the flagship Wolfson, Cirrus Logic, TI, and Asahi Kasei converter chips and the modulator is always running at either 6.144 Mhz (48/96/192Khz base rate) or 5.6448 Mhz (44.1/88.2/174.4 Khz base rate).

The same goes for the clock. It always operates at the same rate for 48/96/192 or 44.1/88.2/174.4.

Btw, in the literature about the Phasure NOS1 24/768 DAC they mention it uses a TI PCM1704 DAC chip but that chip only does 96Khz. That fact and the other specs mentioned tells me it is probably a typo and it uses the TI PCM1794 chip which is only advertised as doing 192Khz. (200Khz to be exact). The system clock goes up to 768 fS. There is an edit in the Phasure literature saying they can't test above 192Khz. No **** Sherlock! That chip won't accept any input above 192Khz.

Alistair
Old 22nd September 2011
  #586
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
vendors claim lots of bullbleep to sell products
And there is the answer to your first post. Bravo! It only took you 20 pages to figure it out.

Quote:
lots of masters run over 0dBFS
Now hang on there a minute! You didn't really write that did you?

Alistair
Old 22nd September 2011
  #587
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Now hang on there a minute! You didn't really write that did you?
Well, in all fairness, oldanalogueguy usually backtracks to the idea that the signal at the DAC can't be higher that the signal at the ADC - so long as you don't actually *DO* anything to it in the digital land, summing included. I guess no signal leveling too... so in conclusion, the ideal DAW has 0 plugins, 0 busses, 0 faders... just a couple of transport buttons, an ADC, some memory and a DAC - problem sovled!
Old 22nd September 2011
  #588
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
you can have meaningless concepts
do they really exist?
way too metaphysically deep for me
does anything really exist

vendors claim lots of bullbleep to sell products

i think i said the d/a design was the problem
reducing the digital is one way to avoid it
raising the rails and setting the digital to be way below peak is another

there is way too much DR and plenty of snr
lowering the digital is much better than loud distorted results

lots of masters run over 0dBFS
and are clipped distorted and otherwise hideous
no d/a design can undo the damage
only avoid adding to it
For all my horseplay, I concur
Old 22nd September 2011
  #589
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveDaveDave View Post
Well, in all fairness, oldanalogueguy usually backtracks to the idea that the signal at the DAC can't be higher that the signal at the ADC
He also says you can't mix the domains. :-)

Quote:
so long as you don't actually *DO* anything to it in the digital land, summing included. I guess no signal leveling too... so in conclusion, the ideal DAW has 0 plugins, 0 busses, 0 faders... just a couple of transport buttons, an ADC, some memory and a DAC - problem sovled!
No actually not. How do you record a signal that in the analogue domain peaks over the equivalent of 0 dB FS between the sampling times but never actually clips the modulator? Even though it is theoretically possible, no one is that lucky!

PS: I mean not in a way that makes OAG's last comment valid. Otherwise, yes, problem solved. :-)

Alistair
Old 22nd September 2011
  #590
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
However nice this argument might sound, it isn't valid for most modern converters. I recently checked the specs of the flagship Wolfson, Cirrus Logic, TI, and Asahi Kasei converter chips and the modulator is always running at either 6.144 Mhz (48/96/192Khz base rate) or 5.6448 Mhz (44.1/88.2/174.4 Khz base rate).

The same goes for the clock. It always operates at the same rate for 48/96/192 or 44.1/88.2/174.4.

Btw, in the literature about the Phasure NOS1 24/768 DAC they mention it uses a TI PCM1704 DAC chip but that chip only does 96Khz. That fact and the other specs mentioned tells me it is probably a typo and it uses the TI PCM1794 chip which is only advertised as doing 192Khz. (200Khz to be exact). The system clock goes up to 768 fS. There is an edit in the Phasure literature saying they can't test above 192Khz. No **** Sherlock! That chip won't accept any input above 192Khz.

Alistair
Fair enough regarding the clock, but I think I'm solid ground regarding the base sample rate, where the input voltage is being measured; the faster the rate, the less accurate each measurement will be, after a certain point (I'm regurgitating this from Lavry, BTW)
Old 22nd September 2011
  #591
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Hansest's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveUK View Post
Back to our regularily scheduled programme:+)
Great timing on this one!!

haha
Old 22nd September 2011
  #592
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Hansest's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by don4777 View Post
I am almost ashamed to admit that I have read every post in this thread.


I feel sorry for the students OAG must have confused in his past and feel fortunate that I didn't have professors of his ilk during my engineering program at Case Western. They were content to use definitions that were consistent with the rest of the engineering community.

Although I know this thread is a complete waste of time I can't seem to ignore it. It's like driving by a car accident. You don't really want to see the carnage but you have to look. On with the carnage...

Don
happened to me but had some fun, admired the patience and clarity of knowledgeable good people (thanks), and reread good old basics. I still can´t believe "ocean"!
Old 22nd September 2011
  #593
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DaveUK's Avatar
Yeah ocean was funny
Old 22nd September 2011
  #594
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the donal's Avatar
Has this thread got to the punchline yet?

I must confess, I did skip several pages.
Old 22nd September 2011
  #595
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TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by the donal View Post
Has this thread got to the punchline yet?

I must confess, I did skip several pages.
It does actually...right here https://www.gearslutz.com/board/7034928-post262.html

Laughter ensued but the pinheads pushed forward with ego at full throttle...shrinking members in hand.
Old 22nd September 2011
  #596
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the donal's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboJets View Post
It does actually...right here https://www.gearslutz.com/board/7034928-post262.html

Laughter ensued but the pinheads pushed forward with ego at full throttle...shrinking members in hand.
:D

It does rather seem an exercise in stubbornity.

I must admit- I'd like to read up a bit more on the theory on sample rates/bit-depth. My grasp of it is fairly limited...

Though a thread like this is more likely to confuse than enlighten... :D
Old 23rd September 2011
  #597
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug hazelrigg View Post
Fair enough regarding the clock, but I think I'm solid ground regarding the base sample rate, where the input voltage is being measured; the faster the rate, the less accurate each measurement will be, after a certain point (I'm regurgitating this from Lavry, BTW)
No no! The modulator, the actual sampling element itself, is running at the rates I mention and the output of this modulator gets decimated to the base rate. All modern converter chips work this way.

The Lavry Gold is a discrete design as far as I know so it might be true for that kind of device. Not so for any of the off-the-shelf pro converters you can buy. That doesn't mean that I am in favour of higher sample rates but this particular argument isn't the right one.


PS: Btw, in a previous round of the OAG merry-go-round I put some of the info about ADC modulator and clock speeds in a post: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/6938384-post25.html A lot of things he says in this thread were already refuted by the spec sheets of the converters. He should already know he is wrong. The last line of that post was a good prediction. It is hard to tell if OAG is really stupid, insane or a good troll.

Alistair
Old 23rd September 2011
  #598
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minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by the donal View Post
It does rather seem an exercise in stubbornity.
Stubbourne Legacy.

I don't think Notorious O.A.G. realizes that he also arguing with people who actually know how to make these DAC's and know that you have to contend with the issue one way or tha uttha. But that's GS for ya....
Old 23rd September 2011
  #599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug hazelrigg View Post
Fair enough regarding the clock, but I think I'm solid ground regarding the base sample rate, where the input voltage is being measured; the faster the rate, the less accurate each measurement will be, after a certain point (I'm regurgitating this from Lavry, BTW)
not quite true

there is a point where jitter or voltage resolution etc
negate the value of higher sampling rates
but you can sample higher than 192 if you want to spend the money to make better circuits
Old 23rd September 2011
  #600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minister View Post
In your world view, how is this possible?

how is what possible
really helps everybody if you quote the previous you are replying to
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