The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
if higher sample rate doesnt matter then why .... Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 19th September 2011
  #421
Lives for gear
 
DaveUK's Avatar
I am not the ocean and this can't be the sea but i am in the water as far as i can see
Old 19th September 2011
  #422
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveUK View Post
Can we get mods to delete
This whole thread apart from links to actually recognised papers/ pdfs and one or three excellent simple explanations . Maybe credit OAG with provoking such a stickie of accepted whizzdumb/ universal/understandable terms ;+)

Sent from my X10i using Gearslutz.com App
why? because it's challenging us?...there's this thing called thinking critically...it means that you need to dispell what you think you know and honestly consider that other possiblities may be right...then when you give other possibilities some serious consideration, make a determination....maybe you end up thinking exactly the same thing...or maybe you learn something new...both destinations are completely valid.
Old 19th September 2011
  #423
Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyC View Post
ridiculous narcs!...you drew four dots and made a sine wave out of it...I'm contending that I could take the same four dots and draw a condo...the point being there are liberties being taken...a theorum is just that ...it's educated specultaion...otherwise it would be called a fact...I'm starting to lean towards the Ocean here...sinply because you guys aren't making sense when it comes down to it, Ocean has clear reasons as to why ISP don't exist and your side of this argument consists of quoting a theorum...which may or may not be actual fact...probably not actually...probaly like more of a guide than fact...unless someone can explain without being negative and sarcastic.

PS we draw lines because we are humans describing something that we can't do....sample...so we all find the best way to describe it...
Agh.

This is just willful ignorance. Flat earth type stuff.

If you don't understand why you couldn't 'draw a condo' between sample points, you don't understand the most fundamental aspects of sampling theory. Bandlimiting means that any frequency components as high or higher than half the frequency of the sampling rate are prevented from reaching the AD stage. That means that there will be less than half a wave cycle between any two samples, even at the uppermost frequency limits of the passed band. You ain't gonna be able to draw your condo with less than half of a sine wave. You could draw a (sinusoidally) rounded hilltop or valley. But that's it.




And, beyond the science of the topic at hand, you apparently can't even be bothered to find the definitions of the words you throw around.

Quote:
theorem -- A general proposition not self-evident but proved by a chain of reasoning; a truth established by means of accepted truths
https://www.google.com/search?q=theo...w=1280&bih=618

If you won't take the trouble to educate yourself on the fundamentals of what you are pontificating about -- why should anyone bother to try to straighten out your misguided thinking.

Really.


PS... Is "Ocean" OAG? And, if so, did I miss something?
Old 19th September 2011
  #424
Lives for gear
 
DaveUK's Avatar
Mandy ,you want a noob or a not so noob to sift through all
This ****e?
Old 19th September 2011
  #425
Lives for gear
 
DaveUK's Avatar
Gearslutz used to be a place to get knowleagble experience driven information on equipment and how to use it.
Old 20th September 2011
  #427
Lives for gear
 
DaveUK's Avatar
That link just leaves you with the spinning circle .sorry although strangely apt!
Old 20th September 2011
  #428
Lives for gear
 
doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveUK View Post
I am not the ocean and this can't be the sea but i am in the water as far as i can see
Pink floyd, right?
Old 20th September 2011
  #429
Lives for gear
 
doug hazelrigg's Avatar
I'm starting to wonder who the lunatics in this thread really are... the flat-earthers... or those of us who are still fruitlessly arguing to the contrary heh
Old 20th September 2011
  #430
Lives for gear
 
DaveUK's Avatar
If they'd had a legendary bass player and drummer ...yes .it's all getting a bit prog by then anyway . /
Old 20th September 2011
  #431
Lives for gear
 
doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Must be The Who then. I have most of the Who's records but I don't recognize the tune
Old 20th September 2011
  #433
Lives for gear
 
DaveUK's Avatar
Quadrophenia Doug .The sea .
Sorry obliqueness has overcome me ,references to the ocean and beachy head( used in the closing scene of the film version) have overcome me!
Old 20th September 2011
  #434
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug hazelrigg View Post
I'm starting to wonder who the lunatics in this thread really are... the flat-earthers... or those of us who are still fruitlessly arguing to the contrary heh
Well, I already know I'm nuts.

My great-grandmother, who was born in the 1870s, God love her, made me nuts by maintaining steadfastly that not only was the earth flat -- but that airplanes don't really fly. It was her notion that it was all some sort of elaborate trick. Mind you, she actually babysat me when my folks flew down to Acapulco. I'd flown (along with my folks and the pilot) in a 4 seat private plane when I was younger. Didn't matter. We'd been tricked. If the planes weren't flying -- how did we get from point A to point B? I asked. All a trick, she said.

You'd think she was kidding. But she wasn't being funny. She would get very frustrated talking about it. It was a lamentable source of tension between us. She passed away in the early 60s when I was barely 12. I loved her. But she made me a little bit crazy.
Old 20th September 2011
  #435
Lives for gear
 
DaveUK's Avatar
That and the whole concept is about mental health!
Old 20th September 2011
  #436
Lives for gear
 
DaveUK's Avatar
Strange inter post peak there

Sent from my X10i using Gearslutz.com App
Old 20th September 2011
  #437
Lives for gear
 
DaveUK's Avatar
And to think they don't exist
Old 20th September 2011
  #438
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveUK View Post
Always a worthwhile reminder of the difference between actual argument and simple contrary contention.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is...

Old 20th September 2011
  #439
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyC View Post
ridiculous narcs!...you drew four dots and made a sine wave out of it...I'm contending that I could take the same four dots and draw a condo...the point being there are liberties being taken...a theorum is just that ...it's educated specultaion...otherwise it would be called a fact...I'm starting to lean towards the Ocean here...sinply because you guys aren't making sense when it comes down to it, Ocean has clear reasons as to why ISP don't exist and your side of this argument consists of quoting a theorum...which may or may not be actual fact...probably not actually...probaly like more of a guide than fact...unless someone can explain without being negative and sarcastic.

PS we draw lines because we are humans describing something that we can't do....sample...so we all find the best way to describe it...
1. A theorem is a proved theory. It is fact. I'd go look that up if I were you.

2. You don't understand digital audio therefore it's pointless discussing it with ya. Unless you do understand it but have decided it's false.

3. I took a diagram from a Shannon article. Debating that diagram makes one look..... ahem.

4. I have a PhD in this area.
Old 20th September 2011
  #440
Lives for gear
 
DaveUK's Avatar
Narco gwan!
Old 20th September 2011
  #441
Gear Maniac
 

well what is actually hillarious is the two of you and the rest of the non Ocean dwellers are actually the"earth is flat clan" and you dont even realize it.


I haven't heard one good argument that dispells Ocean's "theorum" all I see is the insecure badgering and snickering...which just tells me that Ocean may be on to something.
Old 20th September 2011
  #442
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
and narcos diagram is wrong
because it ASSumes a given d/a voltage level

you can design the d/a so that the maximum analog value is way below the peak narco assumes by
MIXING THE DIGITAL DOMAIN WITH ANALOG AND DRAWING
SAMPLES OVER AN ASSUMED ANALOG SIGNAL.

As I have said you ahve to confuse the digital and analog domains as well as have a badly designed d/a to have a peak like that diagram shows.
No.

Do you think samples represent peaks in digital audio?

Either that diagram is correct or you think samples represent peaks. Which is it?
Old 20th September 2011
  #443
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyC View Post
well what is actually hillarious is the two of you and the rest of the non Ocean dwellers are actually the"earth is flat clan" and you dont even realize it.


I haven't heard one good argument that dispells Ocean's "theorum" all I see is the insecure badgering and snickering...which just tells me that Ocean may be on to something.
1. Who is Ocean?

2. The only part I've been arguing against is the inter sample peak notion; if you don't understand those arguments then you disagree with Shannon and Nyquist (and, as it happens, my paper on recovery algorithms for corrupt data streams and another one on wave functions in 3D virtual space). I don't have an issue with the initial premise that higher sample rates improve things. Although for different reasons.

3. I'm not sure you know what a theorem is. It requires inductive mathematical proof. A theorem can never be conjecture.

4. Saying mildly argumentative things doesn't win an argument. Bit like saying "you're wrong cuz I have a nicer cake"....heh
Old 20th September 2011
  #444
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyc View Post
What are you proposing here? A signal sampled 20 times with a bit depth of 1? Or the value of a single sample point at a bit depth of 20?
yeha - I'd like that clearing up.
Old 20th September 2011
  #445
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
This place?

It does look pretty awesome... even in the digital representation.
Yup. That place. Very very high, very beautiful and crazy to peak over the edge.
Old 20th September 2011
  #446
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
1. A theorem is a proved theory. It is fact. I'd go look that up if I were you.

2. You don't understand digital audio therefore it's pointless discussing it with ya. Unless you do understand it but have decided it's false.

3. I took a diagram from a Shannon article. Debating that diagram makes one look..... ahem.

4. I have a PhD in this area.

uh huh...proved how when? I dont think so narcs...a PHD in intersample peaks?...interesting

that diagram is a joke...four dots...which seem to be connected with a line narcs...but the line is drawn to suit the purpose of the argument...absolute dung for proving anything...shall I take the time to draw a condo with four dots on a page?...I am not saying you are wrong...I AM saying that the lot of you are MORE guilty than Ocean when it comes to not providing anything concrete to back up your arguments...point me to something other than Shannon/Nyquist (most of us dont have a PHD in this stuff actually, but that doesn't mean we can't get it...I've been doing this as long as you narcs)...show us like we are all two years old...instead of mocking me narcs..you know that it's the easiest thing in the world to cut someone down...anyone can do that.
Old 20th September 2011
  #447
Lives for gear
 
dcollins's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyC View Post
seriously THIS is the proof? wow...a picture showing that some crapolla CD player that has crappy DA that outputs too hot...perhaps the manufacturer should attenuate that signal so that it doesn't "overshoot"...wow...this is getting really funny...I honestly thought you guys would be able to bury Ocean by now...but really
Yes. Yes, it is the proof. And it does exactly what the theory indicates it would do. And the price of the CD or DAC is no guarantee of internal headroom.

If 'ocean' is 'oag,' he has made exactly zero progress in explaining his position, as far as I'm concerned. He has, in fact, been buried by everyone (save for yourself, perhaps) re-stating these obvious principles which are well-known and easily demonstrable.

While confusing the issue tremendously.......


DC
Old 20th September 2011
  #448
Gear Maniac
 

no I didn't know the difference between theorum and theory actually...so what?...no really...who cares?...that is just another way to avoid being precise, informative and helpful....it has NO bearing on the topic at hand...show us what you mean and I'll listen... four dots on a sinewave on a page deosn't count.
Old 20th September 2011
  #449
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Yes. Yes, it is the proof. And it does exactly what the theory indicates it would do. And the price of the CD or DAC is no guarantee of internal headroom.

If 'ocean' is 'oag,' he has made exactly zero progress in explaining his position, as far as I'm concerned. He has, in fact, been buried by everyone (save for yourself, perhaps) re-stating these obvious principles which are well-know and easily demonstrable.

While confusing the issue tremendously.......


DC
sorry man...but it's called attenuation...because a DA doesn't function properly hardly illustrates your point...but YES I agree price doesn't mean the gear will function properly...glad we can agree on that
Old 20th September 2011
  #450
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyC View Post
uh huh...proved how when? I dont think so narcs...a PHD in intersample peaks?...interesting

that diagram is a joke...four dots...which seem to be connected with a line narcs...but the line is drawn to suit the purpose of the argument...absolute dung for proving anything...shall I take the time to draw a condo with four dots on a page?...I am not saying you are wrong...I AM saying that the lot of you are MORE guilty than Ocean when it comes to not providing anything concrete to back up your arguments...point me to something other than Shannon/Nyquist (most of us dont have a PHD in this stuff actually, but that doesn't mean we can't get it...I've been doing this as long as you narcs)...show us like we are all two years old...instead of mocking me narcs..you know that it's the easiest thing in the world to cut someone down...anyone can do that.
Not trying to mock ya! My PhD thesis was about wave propagation in virtual environments and how we can detect interference between signals (or understand at what moment a wavefront interacted with its environment in the time domain).

Just providing some background info.

Other papers besides Shannon? One of the greatest mathematicians of the 20th century, the father of information theory and you want a better paper!! eek! Well - I'm a little taken aback!

The diagram is a diagram of interpolation of four points. It shows how none of the points need to lie on a peak to give a correct wave description. Or looking at it the other way it shows that samples don't fall on peaks (apart from very occasionally).
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump