The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Is "copying" guitar tracks for a fuller sound common? Mas­ter­ing Plugins
Old 5th September 2011
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Is "copying" guitar tracks for a fuller sound common?

not sure if this is the right forum for this question but:

I am doing a mix right now for a pretty established band. This isnt for a record but for some promo work for sabian so this wont be printed on a CD or anything, strictly for web promotion.

Anyways, I get the logic session and the main guitar parts, there are 4 tracks, 2 of which are labled "copy"

when i mute them, the sound thins out, when all 4 are going its sounds very beefy.

Is this a common trick to get those full, fat, deep tones common of most harder rock??

If not, what is a good way to get really nice thick sounding guitars onto your tracks?
Old 5th September 2011
  #2
if they are actually copies and not doubles they are not going to make anything fatter. Hard pan one of the parts and the copy left and right and if you have a way of monitoring from stereo to mono switch to mono, if the images collapses
it's definitely not a copy.
Old 5th September 2011
  #3
Gear Maniac
 

Ill have to try that when I get home..

They are labeled "copy" however.

Whats the best way to get that thick guitar tone? Seems everytime I track electric it comes out thin and wimpy..

Thanks!

Jim
Old 5th September 2011
  #4
Lives for gear
 
rhythmtech's Avatar
 

probably should have been labelled "double" rather than copy. it is just the same part recorded twice, this is very common to beef up rhythm guitars.

to check just flip the polarity of one track against its "copy" if there is no change then you have a "double".
Old 5th September 2011
  #5
Lives for gear
 

If they are in fact copies, try delaying one a little bit (85-250 Ms), this can created a perceived difference between the two tracks, and add some width when panned.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Gearslutz.com App
Old 5th September 2011
  #6
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmtech View Post
probably should have been labelled "double" rather than copy. it is just the same part recorded twice, this is very common to beef up rhythm guitars.

to check just flip the polarity of one track against its "copy" if there is no change then you have a "double".
Thanks for the tip, might you know the best way to do this in Logic??

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosleepPDX View Post
If they are in fact copies, try delaying one a little bit (85-250 Ms), this can created a perceived difference between the two tracks, and add some width when panned.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Gearslutz.com App
I did know about that trick, not sure why I havent tried it yet, thanks for reminding me! heh
Old 5th September 2011
  #7
Gear Maniac
 
Reiner's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kleraudio View Post
I did know about that trick, not sure why I havent tried it yet, thanks for reminding me! heh
I know...it's hard to beware it's mono-compatibility.
Always check if you can live with the loss happing when pushing the mono-butoon.
Old 5th September 2011
  #8
Lives for gear
 

I haven't used logic in awhile, but there should be a polarity flip on the track strip? ( looks like a little o with a line through it, sry if that's obvious)

If not, lots of eq and compressor plugins will have a phase flip button in them.

you can also try eqing, compressing, or adding some tape simulation to one of the guitars so they vary a little more.

P.s. no problem! Happy to remind

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Gearslutz.com App
Old 5th September 2011
  #9
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kleraudio View Post
Thanks for the tip, might you know the best way to do this in Logic??
The "Gain" plugin in Logic can do this (Plugins -> Utility -> "Gain" mono).
In the upper right corner there's a button "Phase Invert".
You have to do this only on one of the two tracks obviously, and they both have to be the same level and not be panned for the most obvious result.

Delaying one guitar is a good tip and might just work.
It's not even close to recording a second take of the guitar, though.. so personally - if possible - I always make sure the rhythm guitars are doubled.
Old 5th September 2011
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kleraudio View Post
Thanks for the tip, might you know the best way to do this in Logic??



I did know about that trick, not sure why I havent tried it yet, thanks for reminding me! heh
use the gain plug in, but if you flip the polarity or phase on one track and they are identical, they will cancel out. As far as off setting a copy 85 -250 ms, what you then have is a slap. I suppose if you take a harmonizer and chage the pitch a few cents and delay it by 20 ms or so that might change it a bit. But to me it never sounds right like that either.
Old 5th September 2011
  #11
Harmless Wacko
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosleepPDX View Post
If they are in fact copies, try delaying one a little bit (85-250 Ms), this can created a perceived difference between the two tracks, and add some width when panned.
Possibly the WORST advice I've seen on GS today.

Uhmmm...

Sure ya got those numbers right there Chochise?

Those settings are gonna turn your guitar tracks into SOUP.

Try 25-45ms. range and MODULATE the delay time with a sine or triangle wave.

There are about 10 other dumb delay and pitch mod stunts you can pull... all of which absolutely SUCK compared to tightly tracked ADDITIONAL PERFORMANCES.

Unless yer trying to sound like something from 1981.

Then yer golden.

SM.
Old 5th September 2011
  #12
Gear Maniac
 

Thanks a ton guys!

Im gonna mess with the phase issue when I get home, glad its easy to do in logic using the gain plug, i used to use "trim" in Pro Tools but just recently switched to Logic

On a side note, if Im doing my own projects and I mic up an amp with just a 57, I get that thin sound... So it *IS* common practice to do multiple takes of the same part to fill out the sound??

This is like a revelation!

Jim
Old 5th September 2011
  #13
Lives for gear
delay and chorus
also formant +or-
Old 5th September 2011
  #14
Registered User
Yes - doubling, tripling, layering ... it's been done ever since Les Paul invented multitrack recording (check out Utube clips of Les Paul & Mary Ford - very cool 1950's stuff).

Not just guitars - vocals, even pianos & drums & bass ... The Beatles pretty much doubled everything, it was a big part of their sound ...

If you have to fake it, delays with modulation are the way to go. This basically goes back to tape flanging (invented by Les Paul, but The Beatles engineers thought they invented it 10 years later ...)

Chorus is a modulated delay, so sometimes that works. Try extremely slow LFO chorus.

If the "copies" are merely cloned copies of a part, all they do is sum together to create a 6dB boost. Don't be fooled by a volume boost if that is what is going on - you could just boost the original track.
Old 5th September 2011
  #15
Lives for gear
 
doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Yeah, 250ms is WAY high, I typically delay a copied track 15-25ms

I'm guessing Cochise there actually meant 18-25ms

I'll bet the tracks the OP referred to ARE in fact delayed in this fashion, probably using the DAW's track delay
Old 5th September 2011
  #16
Lives for gear
 
doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Listen to for example a recent Dream Theater record (like Dark Clouds...). The rhthym guitar is just one guitar, yet it sounds BIG. I'll bet they used the copy + pan +delay or the copy + pan + phase flip to get that.

Another method I use often is to record the amp M-S -- you can get a really wide guitar sound that way and don't have to worry about mono issues
Old 5th September 2011
  #17
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipperman View Post
Possibly the WORST advice I've seen on GS today.

Uhmmm...

Sure ya got those numbers right there Chochise?

Those settings are gonna turn your guitar tracks into SOUP.

Try 25-45ms. range and MODULATE the delay time with a sine or triangle wave.

There are about 10 other dumb delay and pitch mod stunts you can pull... all of which absolutely SUCK compared to tightly tracked ADDITIONAL PERFORMANCES.

Unless yer trying to sound like something from 1981.

Then yer golden.

SM.

OP - listen to THIS post.
Old 5th September 2011
  #18
Lives for gear
 
audiogeek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipperman View Post
Possibly the WORST advice I've seen on GS today.

Uhmmm...

Sure ya got those numbers right there Chochise?

Those settings are gonna turn your guitar tracks into SOUP.

Try 25-45ms. range and MODULATE the delay time with a sine or triangle wave.

There are about 10 other dumb delay and pitch mod stunts you can pull... all of which absolutely SUCK compared to tightly tracked ADDITIONAL PERFORMANCES.

Unless yer trying to sound like something from 1981.

Then yer golden.

SM.
LOL, what HE said!!!

Personally I hate Haas-style delay tricks and think it's the worst idea ever. Even when it's done "right" it sounds cheesy and glitchy to my ears.

And it only "works" if your two tracks are hard-panned left-right... Not many people have use for mono summing these days, but the perils of this approach in mono are well known.

What's not talked about so much, and even more of a threat, is if there's any chance you may choose a pan setting somewhere in between, it will still completely screw you. What happens if you want to see how the guitars sound at +/-75, or +/-50? They'll quickly sound like you have toilet paper tubes strapped to your ears. Not good.

So... don't do it. You'd be better off using a stereo widener plugin on a single mono track... still might be phasey, but you'll have better variable control of pan position, and the programmers (at least ostensibly) may have put some effort into mitigating the phase issues.

FWIW, IMHO, etc etc...
Old 5th September 2011
  #19
Gear Addict
 
Empora's Avatar
 

I think the most useful thing to do is ascertain wether the tracks are poorly labeled double tracks or actual duplicates. If doubles, great, as others have said, common practice, bang on. If duplicates maybe they were doing some kind of parallel compression or eq? Who knows?

You said it sounded better with these tracks in place so either way if it sounds better use it!
Old 6th September 2011
  #20
I never just copy/paste tracks like that.
Old 6th September 2011
  #21
Lives for gear
 
malaclypse's Avatar
Yeah that pan delay thing always turned my guitars to mush the times ive tried it.

What I've found works better is to PROCESS one of the copies with a short to medium reverb and pan it opposite the original. Gives you size and depth without the phasey mess
Old 6th September 2011
  #22
Gear Maniac
 

Great stuff here guys! Once I get my system fired up I'll mess with the phase thing and hopefully they are double performances.

My next question:

Why double or triple a performance when you can just use 3 mics on the amp instead??

Or am I being misled on that theory?

Jim
Old 6th September 2011
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipperman View Post
Possibly the WORST advice I've seen on GS today.

Uhmmm...

Sure ya got those numbers right there Chochise?

Those settings are gonna turn your guitar tracks into SOUP.

Try 25-45ms. range and MODULATE the delay time with a sine or triangle wave.
beat me to it.
Old 6th September 2011
  #24
No, double them. If you have access to two seperate rigs use one for the left side and one for the right side. Make sure it's played well and you're good.
Old 6th September 2011
  #25
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan jetter View Post
beat me to it.
By an hour and 15 minutes you sycophant tortoise.

@OP. Copy probably just means they copied all insert settings. You should be able tell pretty quickly by listening to them if they are straight copies of the audio with a delay.

Actually thinking about it, I used the eighth note delay trick today on a leady guitar part for width. Worked very well.
Old 6th September 2011
  #26
Lives for gear
 

I didn't mean the time to be that high, unfortanely the keyboard on my phone sort of sucks. Though a delay that long would not necessarily sound bad... I'm surprised at the angry responses.

Ive tracked leads before where ill put a 57 up close and an LDC at a different point in the room fairly far away, then panned them out and its had a nice spacial effect. Long enough to avoid phase with initial transients. I could imagine that more than a couple feet would be more than a couple hundred ms. With some mid-side processing too, this can accomplish different things spacially as well.

I know two mics is not the same as copying a guitar track. But imho ... couple hundred ms not the most absurd thing posted on GS ...
Old 6th September 2011
  #27
Gear Maniac
 
woodnote's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RARStudios View Post
This advice is all bad from what I've read. Have you ever Mono'd your mix after doing mini delays on "copied" guitar parts. Sounds like ****. Sounds like you have a terrible muddy effect over the whole mix.

Good luck x.x
Thankfully most people listen in stereo. It's such a moot point these days. So many people don't even bother checking in mono anymore because there are so little sources, although there are a couple, that sum the audio to mono.
Old 6th September 2011
  #28
Lives for gear
 

P.S. I have had mix sessions before with only one rhythm guitar where I soft panned it and hard panned a reverb on it the other direction. Something like this might sound better on a rhythm track.
Old 6th September 2011
  #29
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosleepPDX View Post
I didn't mean the time to be that high, unfortanely the keyboard on my phone sort of sucks. Though a delay that long would not necessarily sound bad... I'm surprised at the angry responses.

Ive tracked leads before where ill put a 57 up close and an LDC at a different point in the room fairly far away, then panned them out and its had a nice spacial effect. Long enough to avoid phase with initial transients. I could imagine that more than a couple feet would be more than a couple hundred ms. With some mid-side processing too, this can accomplish different things spacially as well.

I know two mics is not the same as copying a guitar track. But imho ... couple hundred ms not the most absurd thing posted on GS ...
just to be clear-

250ms delay is an 8th note delay at 120bpm. there's no way that's gonna be useful as a doubling effect. there's no way that even half that (125ms. 16th note delay @ 120bpm) is gonna be useful as a doubling effect.

also FWIW...i've never gotten much mileage from panning 2 mics for spatial effect. i'm curious to hear some cool examples of it, though, and see if i can learn some new tricks. you got any examples i could check?
Old 6th September 2011
  #30
If I'm feeling too lazy to double a guitar part or only want a single guitar playing but want a little width, I'll use a dry recorded guitar track and re amp it to two separate amp setups, with different EQ setteings, different amount of drive maybe some different pedals.
record each re amp to a mono track and then pan as desired

not as "Big" as multiple takes but the variances between the setups can give a little width if you only want a single guitar playing but don't want it to be right up the middle or panned over to one side

also if you set it up right you don't have to worry about phase issues since you are not introducing delay
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump