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Gibson raids FYI Ribbon Microphones
Old 9th September 2011
  #61
Gear Guru
Oh great.
Let's just turn turn this into another kneejerk attack on Obama.
Whoopee.
Old 10th September 2011
  #62
Lives for gear
Gibson raids FYI

Agreed, that "congressional action" is bringing politics back into the discussion. Had it been some non-partisan entity, one might hope for some reasoned movement toward resolution of the specific Gibson activity.

I'm still waiting to see if there's any information as to legacy instruments.
Old 10th September 2011
  #63
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The Lacey Act has NEVER been enforced, that I know of, let alone on a US company like Gibson.
Today it came out on the news that other guitar manufacturing companies that use the same, exact wood & fretboard were not targeted by the DOJ and that the CEO of Gibson donates a lot of money to the Republican party.

Last edited by aremos; 10th September 2011 at 12:54 AM.. Reason: grammer
Old 10th September 2011
  #64
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junior's Avatar
 

Hey everyone, let's dial it back a little... That link was an official government letter sent to the DOJ, the Dept. of the Interior and Fish and Wildlife Services - it's absolutely relevant to the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRobb View Post
Oh great.
Let's just turn turn this into another kneejerk attack on Obama.
Whoopee.
Respectfully, PRobb, overreacting is just gonna' get this thread deleted like all the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeolian
Agreed, that "congressional action" is bringing politics back into the discussion. Had it been some non-partisan entity, one might hope for some reasoned movement toward resolution of the specific Gibson activity.
Specifically, which "non-partisan entity" do you think would be better suited to resolve the issues with Gibson and the Lacey Act?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aremos
Today it came out on the news that other guitar manufacturing companies that use the same, exact wood & fretboard were not targeted by the DOJ and that the CEO of Gibson donates a lot of money to the Republican party.
Implying that there may be political motives to the Gibson raids is not helpful right now - at this point, that theory is speculative at best. Let's wait to see which facts come about.

Let's listen to Whitecat's warnings and keep the discussion on topic, please.
Old 10th September 2011
  #65
Take a look at the law, it's described below. If Gibson knowingly imported wood that is illegal in the country of origin they could be in big trouble. Just because a law has not been enforced is not a good excuse to break it. To me this looks like a clear case. Probably not the best timing for the gov. Picking Gibson to start enforcing the act was also prob. not the best choice but if Gibson is guilty of breaking the law they need to be prosecuted.

Details of the law in layman's terms:

http://www.greenpressinitiative.org/...aceyActFAQ.pdf
Old 10th September 2011
  #66
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tribedescribe, you may want to take a look at the links to the -actual- legislation and the link to court document #17. I posted links to both of them earlier in this thread.

BTW, if you really want to get confused, look into how the feds define "due care."
Old 10th September 2011
  #67
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After reading more & a little bit of research it seems the DOJ (Eric Holder) visa-vie the FBI were after Gibson, all of a sudden, for some technicality that has been AMIGUOUS, to say the least, & definitely unenforceable.

It now turns out that Gibson CEO Henry Juszkiewics was Speaker of the House John Boehner's GUEST at the Joint House speech on Thursday!
So it is political.

And this Administration keeps going out of it's way to attack American companies and, ironically, American jobs with all it's regulations.

And this President talks about JOBS? One of his MAIN right hand men, Jeffry Immelt, CEO of GE (& former owner of NBC) has transferred 20% of labor work force to China ... let alone GE - General Electric - paid $ 0.00 taxes for year 2009 - 2010!

Last edited by aremos; 10th September 2011 at 02:47 AM.. Reason: grammer
Old 10th September 2011
  #68
I find this interesting....

"The US has the capacity to precipitate a global fightback against illegal logging. The legislation proposed is elegant and non-bureaucratic… It adds no burden to the people who are already getting it right and it incentivizes those who know they are currently getting it wrong, prompting them to do the right thing. That is what good law should be all about.” --Barry Gardiner, The U.K. Prime Minister’s Special Envoy for Forestry, October 16, 2007, in written testimony to a hearing on the Legal Timber Protection Act

Thanks junior, I will check out the "due care". We just do not know the details yet for the case and Gibson is innocent until proven guilty. But, you should keep a open mind because the law is a good thing for the world.

Here is some more good info and facts on the law.

Environmental Investigation Agency (EIA), Washington, DC - The Lacey Act
Old 10th September 2011
  #69
Gear Head
 

It's virtually impossible to discuss this topic without mentioning the motivations of the parties involved but it's been made very clear to us that an open discussion involving those motivations is not allowed here.
Old 10th September 2011
  #70
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junior's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribedescribe View Post
I find this interesting....

"The US has the capacity to precipitate a global fightback against illegal logging. The legislation proposed is elegant and non-bureaucratic… It adds no burden to the people who are already getting it right and it incentivizes those who know they are currently getting it wrong, prompting them to do the right thing. That is what good law should be all about.” --Barry Gardiner, The U.K. Prime Minister’s Special Envoy for Forestry, October 16, 2007, in written testimony to a hearing on the Legal Timber Protection Act

Thanks junior, I will check out the "due care". We just do not know the details yet for the case and Gibson is innocent until proven guilty. But, you should keep a open mind because the law is a good thing for the world.

Here is some more good info and facts on the law.

Environmental Investigation Agency (EIA), Washington, DC - The Lacey Act
I hear you. My mind is definitely open as long as the information is factual. I don't care much for party politics...

BTW, I'd be careful not to hang my arguments on the EIA or any other organization / government / politician who's promoting this legislation as they're likely to have a vested interest in it...
Old 10th September 2011
  #71
I come on gearslutz to talk about gear so I am going to not be political. Yes it is true guitars only account for a fraction of the wood harvested in the world. But does that make it o.k. to Illegally harvest wood from endangered species?

From my reading all the act does is it makes sure business have documentation of where there wood comes from. The act also says they must make sure the wood they are importing was not sourced Illegally. Illegally meaning they must abid by the country of origin's law. Sounds pretty simple to me, but it could also be paperwork nightmare. Due care seems to give the business some flexibility, but is also to vague and general. There is also some gray area on weather the country of origin's law is considered reasonable.

Gibson may never be prosecuted because one of the lowest penalties for the law is only the seizure of property, not prosecution.
I am not saying Gibson is guilty because I do not hold all the facts on the case so I am not going to proclaim Gibson is a unethical company. Below is some highlights on a recent article:

Leonard Krause of Compliance Specialists, who specializes in trade policy and regulations, domestic and international marketing, said that the Forest Stewardship Council defense posed by Gibson may not do it much good.

"We tell people that FSC is no guarantee that you'll be in compliance with the Lacey Act, as we see in this case," Krause said.

"There is no way to be certified as Lacey Act compliant. There are no hoops that you jump through and that gold seal that you get to say that your practices are Lacey Act compliant. The burden is really on the importer, to document it well and to know exactly what species they're importing," Krause said.

While details on the raid last week were scant, the EIA's Middleton said the recent Gibson shipment was flagged by Customs and later handed off to agents for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service because of faulty paperwork including omissions and other discrepancies.

India has export restrictions on rosewood that are specified in the Foreign Trade and Development Regulation Act of 1992, which states that export of HTS code 4407 - including rosewood and ebony - is prohibited.

The shipment in question allegedly was exported under a false HTS code, consigned to Gibson Guitar.

"If it's found that Gibson broke the law, then they broke the law. Lacey exists to help to support developing nations in their efforts to protect their own resources. If India made a law that bans export of a certain type of wood in a certain form, then we as an exporting country should respect that law and that's why we have the Lacey Act," Middleton.
Old 10th September 2011
  #72
Gear Maniac
forget it

Last edited by sears; 10th September 2011 at 01:51 PM.. Reason: stupid post
Old 10th September 2011
  #73
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zvenx's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FutureLegends View Post
Maybe it's payback for buying Opcode and scrapping Studio Vision Pro? ;-)
yep. I still pissed with them for it, and have zero sympathy if they go out of business.
sorry my guitar welding colleagues.
rsp
Old 10th September 2011
  #74
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razorboy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribedescribe View Post
Just because a law has not been enforced is not a good excuse to break it. To me this looks like a clear case. Probably not the best timing for the gov. Picking Gibson to start enforcing the act was also prob. not the best choice but if Gibson is guilty of breaking the law they need to be prosecuted.


Generally speaking, environmental laws and enforcement are becoming stronger as time passes.
Old 10th September 2011
  #75
Gear Maniac
 

The guitar gods should have thrown a lightning bolt from the clouds at Henry J for putting out that Firebird..

Henry can wrap himself in the flag all he wants. As for U.S policy, I feel like the republicans are an alcoholic father. The dems are an enabling mother,while the tea party's a child with some unknown fetal syndrome. What's a semi-normal child to do??

Ron Allaire
Old 10th September 2011
  #76
Eat
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considering the routing job they did on one of mine, gibson should be thrown in prison.
Old 10th September 2011
  #77
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junior's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribedescribe View Post
Yes it is true guitars only account for a fraction of the wood harvested in the world. But does that make it o.k. to Illegally harvest wood from endangered species?
This has been discussed before... The whole argument about conservation seems to distract from the fact that the feds are interpreting the protectionist policies of another country to persecute people in the US. A policy that not even the other country believes is being violated. Again, read court document #17 if you haven't already - apparently, the feds changed their story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribedescribe View Post
From my reading all the act does is it makes sure business have documentation of where there wood comes from. The act also says they must make sure the wood they are importing was not sourced Illegally. Illegally meaning they must abid by the country of origin's law. Sounds pretty simple to me, but it could also be paperwork nightmare. Due care seems to give the business some flexibility, but is also to vague and general. There is also some gray area on weather the country of origin's law is considered reasonable.
Exactly, that's the point that a lot of people have a problem with. Some would argue that it usurps US sovereignty, strips US citizens of constitutional rights, compels businesses to outsource more of it's manufacturing process, etc. Not to mention the potential nightmare for transporting instruments (and other wood products) across borders...

IMO, the last thing "due care" presents is giving flexibility to anyone other than federal lawyers and bureaucrats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribedescribe View Post
Gibson may never be prosecuted because one of the lowest penalties for the law is only the seizure of property, not prosecution.
I don't think you raid a business twice with guns drawn if your intention isn't to prosecute, do you? heh

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribedescribe View Post
I am not saying Gibson is guilty because I do not hold all the facts on the case so I am not going to proclaim Gibson is a unethical company. Below is some highlights on a recent article:

[I]Leonard Krause of Compliance Specialists, who specializes in trade policy and regulations, domestic and international marketing, said that the Forest Stewardship Council defense posed by Gibson may not do it much good.

"We tell people that FSC is no guarantee that you'll be in compliance with the Lacey Act, as we see in this case," Krause said.

"There is no way to be certified as Lacey Act compliant. There are no hoops that you jump through and that gold seal that you get to say that your practices are Lacey Act compliant. The burden is really on the importer, to document it well and to know exactly what species they're importing," Krause said.

While details on the raid last week were scant, the EIA's Middleton said the recent Gibson shipment was flagged by Customs and later handed off to agents for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service because of faulty paperwork including omissions and other discrepancies.
Yeah, I saw that article too. Middleton just supports the idea that the amended Lacey Act is far too broad and ambiguous. Good points!
Old 11th September 2011
  #78
Man I just cant get away from the thread! Ironically I should be stacking wood right now for my heatmor............. LOL

Anyways I read the court affidavit(if that is what you meant) and all #17 say's is India prohibits the export of unfinished Indian Rosewood and Indian ebony. The facts of the case are Gibson has been accused of falsifying documents to get around the Lacy act. Now Gibson may claim they had authority from the Indian Gov. to break their own laws in a letter.(India has not officially commented yet) But that does not excuse the fact that they falsified their records to comply with the Lacy law which is against the law. The whole point of the law is to document wood imported to prevent Illegal harvesting. Why would they falsify documents if they had permission?

I have been also looking into Illegal woods and both Madagascar and Indian both created their laws to help conserve their precious resources and eco habitat which include many endangered species. As humans we are directly responsible for the rate of extinction of 3 Species per hour! Just because India and Madagascar cannot enforce their law does not make it o.k. to break their laws and illegally harvest wood. Ebony is a precious wood that takes over 100 years to mature. We need to be more responsible for our valuable limited resources. This law can help ensures proper harvesting practices.

This recent EIA press release on Gibson troubles me. Apparently Gibson was trying to obtain legal wood in Madagascar, then found out it was illegal, yet decided to import it anyway'.


"the objective of that trip's organizers was to look into whether there were opportunities for 'good wood' sourcing, and in the end after seeing the risks, only Gibson continued to purchase."

If Gibson knew they were buying illegal wood that would be a felony.
On another note the EIA has stated they are not interesting in prosecuting individuals for Lacey Act, But thats a whole other can of worms.
Old 11th September 2011
  #79
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribedescribe View Post
As humans we are directly responsible for the rate of extinction of 3 Species per hour!
If you want to take responsibility for that, feel free. More people = less bugs and plants. I'm confident I didn't kill anything in the last hour, and I KNOW I haven't pro-created. I've been locked in the studio all day. But just to do my part and help you out, I decided not to cut the grass today, thereby helping all the bugs therein survive. I feel totally at peace with my decision.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tribedescribe View Post
Ebony is a precious wood that takes over 100 years to mature.
i guess they should get busy planting then. We're still going to need guitars in 100 years.
Old 11th September 2011
  #80
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KevWind's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribedescribe View Post
Ebony is a precious wood that takes over 100 years to mature.
Isn't that about the same for recording engineers heh
Old 11th September 2011
  #81
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FireMoon's Avatar
I pointed this out on another thread but worth repeating here. The head honcho from Tokai has made a couple of clear and unequivocal statements about the wood in Tokai guitars over the past few years.

That is they made it plain that, even on their top flight guitars they cannot under any circumstances use certain woods sourced from certain countries and please don;t ask for it when you speck one of their top of the line models.

I would guess the insinuation would be partly. We don't care what other guitar manufacturers might offer to do, we simply aren't willing to break the law to satisfy a demand for something we feel is, at best, a marginal and debatable difference.

In retrospect it would seem people were approaching Tokai for their top line models and when Tokai told them that certain woods were sourced from a the clients were telling them, "Well so and so makers tell us they just source it from b and say it was from a.

You can make your own mind up about who Tokai might be in competition for custom shop models.
Old 11th September 2011
  #82
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Tomorrow is 9/11. It's a good thing that the hard working and extremely competent people at the DOJ are busy at work ensuring that the evil terrorists at Gibson aren't threatening the American public with their wood.
Old 11th September 2011
  #83
Gear Nut
 
Chitown Ray's Avatar
 

Originally Posted by tribedescribe
As humans we are directly responsible for the rate of extinction of 3 Species per hour!

I found this. The math I did I had to take my shoes off.

Anyway, back to the question of how many tree species there are in the world. I have read estimates that go all the way up to 100,000 but the number that looks most believable to me is 10,000. I got this number in a article by James E. Reeb entitled "Scientific Classification of Trees: An Introduction for Wood Workers".

let me see 3x24 hour day=72 72x365 days in a year=26'280.00

26'280.00x 10 years=262'800.00

Now tell me this were are all my leaves coming from every fall!!!!!
Old 11th September 2011
  #84
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chitown Ray View Post
Originally Posted by tribedescribe
As humans we are directly responsible for the rate of extinction of 3 Species per hour!

I found this. The math I did I had to take my shoes off.

Anyway, back to the question of how many tree species there are in the world. I have read estimates that go all the way up to 100,000 but the number that looks most believable to me is 10,000. I got this number in a article by James E. Reeb entitled "Scientific Classification of Trees: An Introduction for Wood Workers".

let me see 3x24 hour day=72 72x365 days in a year=26'280.00

26'280.00x 10 years=262'800.00

Now tell me this were are all my leaves coming from every fall!!!!!
I'm 99.99% sure his "species" are not only "tree" related, but includes slimy stuff like algae, icky bugs, scorpions, snakes, bunny rabbits, toads, slimy poisonous frogs, rats (the kangaroo rat is costing one So Cal community 50 million to move a bridge, so at least we dodged the bullet on that one species....) and also cool stuff like tigers.

Bottom line, we've been on an extinction curve for our fellow earth inhabitants ever since man started propogating, and God knows.......we're not going to slow down on THAT. heh When we get far enough down the line, we'll be the next ones on the list. But you can be assured that solid rosewood guitars will go first......


So...no worries about your leaves mate! They'll be waiting for you in about a month or so.... :-)
Old 11th September 2011
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX-80 View Post
Tomorrow is 9/11. It's a good thing that the hard working and extremely competent people at the DOJ are busy at work ensuring that the evil terrorists at Gibson aren't threatening the American public with their wood.
Old 15th September 2011
  #86
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junior's Avatar
 

Just saw this posted on Facebook and thought it was kinda' funny:

Ebony Fingerboards, Ebony Guitar Fretboard products, buy Ebony Fingerboards, Ebony Guitar Fretboard products from alibaba.com

I wonder if we'd get raided if we setup a groupbuy... heh
Old 15th September 2011
  #87
Lives for gear
Gibson raids FYI

The last two Fenders I bought had fingerboards made out of something called Pao Ferro. Which is apparently somewhere between rosewood and low grade ebony in hardness. So there are alternatives.
Old 24th October 2011
  #88
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by junior View Post
Just saw this posted on Facebook and thought it was kinda' funny:

Ebony Fingerboards, Ebony Guitar Fretboard products, buy Ebony Fingerboards, Ebony Guitar Fretboard products from alibaba.com

I wonder if we'd get raided if we setup a groupbuy... heh
Sorry I am late to this thread. Newbie here. I do not know. All the talk of wood, raids, politics and government, and even if Henry is guilty or not guilty, is very subjective and none of it makes much sense to me.

It would seem the government would not do something like this for no reason unless they have stooped to a new low. And..even if that were the case why single out Henry and Gibson? IDK. The million dollar question is will our personal guitars be considered contraband? With the laws being so vague I would imagine everyone who owns a newer Gibson will want answers. A clear definition of the law and how it will affect us! I did hear they are working on tweaking laws to protect us as we speak but this is time consuming and just when this will happen is unclear. JET
Old 14th November 2011
  #89
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Just saw this and thought I'd share:

Repeal the Lacey Act? Hell No, Make It Stronger - The Huffington Post

Old 14th November 2011
  #90
Huffington Post? That's a real source of filtered information, isn't it?

Arianna was once married to Michael Huffington, uber rich fellow. That's how this eastern European woman got that name with a Zsa Zsa accent. He ran for Governator here in California once. She was uber right wing back then, really super right wing.

Turns out he divorced her for another MAN. Any woman that drives you to the opposite sex must be doing something...

Anyway, one day after her divorce she wakes up and decides she's really uber liberal. Then she ran for Governator against Arnold, but lost.

Now she supports very weird and ultra left concepts, the same concepts she once rallyed so hard against. In politics, she is the queen of the flip-flops, something no one ever questions her about.

Who knows what this strange woman will espose next year. She ought to get together with Gloria All-red and commiserate on how all those evil men have done them wrong.

Meanwhile, Gibson needs to relocate overseas. Not because of the Obama justice department, but because they make such poor quality crap. Give those Asians a crack at making a Les Paul and you might see some good ones again.
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