The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
36" monitor stands and aligning ears with tweeter Reverb & Delay Plugins
Old 31st August 2011
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

36" monitor stands and aligning ears with tweeter

So, I always read that your ears should be directly in line with the tweeters when listening to monitors. My monitor stands are 36 inches high.

However, no chair that I know of really gets you that high off of the ground...standing straight up in my chair (I'm 6' 1) my ears are still a little below the tweeters.

How do people of different heights accommodate in order to get your ears in the correct sweet spot in relation to the tweeters? How crucial is it?
Old 31st August 2011
  #2
Lives for gear
If I sit properly, they're aligned.
If I sit normally, they're about 2 inches above my ears.

Doesn't really matter as long as you're listening?
Old 31st August 2011
  #3
Cement paver tiles from home depot. Have had my speakers on those for years and dig em.

Tweeters are a little higher than the ear, but it works. Best thing that I have liked was the Carl Tatz setup he talks about online. Once I setup my system that way is when I had great imaging.

DO's and DON'TS of MONITOR PLACEMENT - An article by CARL TATZ:

DO'S

1. Do toe in your near field monitors to a 30 degree angle
2. Do space your near-field monitors far enough apart so that the apex of your equilateral triangle is 18 inches behind your head. (recommend 67.5 inches from tweeter to tweeter)
3. Do use speaker stands and implement a decoupling element between the stands and the monitors
4. Do adjust the height of the acoustic center of the speaker (usually midway between the tweeter and midrange) to match the height of the listeners ears.
5. Do experiment by moving the engineer/monitor position back and forth along the length of the room to avoid axial mode nulls.
6. Do attenuate first reflections once you have chosen your positioning by sitting in the listening position and having someone
walk along the right side wall with a mirror until you see the left speaker. Repeat for the left wall and the ceiling as well. Place sound-absorptive panes at the wall and ceiling positions identified
7. Place absorption material on the rear wall

DON'TS

1. Don't assume that your speakers are going to be truly accurate in your room, no matter how much you paid for them or how well your room is acoustically designed
2. Don't use any other angle other than 30 degrees for stereophonic monitoring. The laws of physics determined this for stereophonic listening 50 years ago.
3. Don't mount your monitors on the console. Unless your console has a lot of mass, the console resonance will greatly affect frequency response.
4. Don't use consoles with high backs that prevent proper speaker height positioning.

A very easy and intuitive axial mode room calculator can more acoustics information are available for free at Carl's website: Carl Tatz Design: Acoustic Design, Analysis and Implementation
Old 31st August 2011
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelDoc View Post
Cement paver tiles from home depot. Have had my speakers on those for years and dig em.

Tweeters are a little higher than the ear, but it works. Best thing that I have liked was the Carl Tatz setup he talks about online. Once I setup my system that way is when I had great imaging.

O's and DON'TS of MONITOR PLACEMENT - An article by CARL TATZ:

DO'S

1. Do toe in your near field monitors to a 30 degree angle
2. Do space your near-field monitors far enough apart so that the apex of your equilateral triangle is 18 inches behind your head. (recommend 67.5 inches from tweeter to tweeter)
3. Do use speaker stands and implement a decoupling element between the stands and the monitors
4. Do adjust the height of the acoustic center of the speaker (usually midway between the tweeter and midrange) to match the height of the listeners ears.
5. Do experiment by moving the engineer/monitor position back and forth along the length of the room to avoid axial mode nulls.
6. Do attenuate first reflections once you have chosen your positioning by sitting in the listening position and having someone
walk along the right side wall with a mirror until you see the left speaker. Repeat for the left wall and the ceiling as well. Place sound-absorptive panes at the wall and ceiling positions identified
7. Place absorption material on the rear wall

DON'TS

1. Don't assume that your speakers are going to be truly accurate in your room, no matter how much you paid for them or how well your room is acoustically designed
2. Don't use any other angle other than 30 degrees for stereophonic monitoring. The laws of physics determined this for stereophonic listening 50 years ago.
3. Don't mount your monitors on the console. Unless your console has a lot of mass, the console resonance will greatly affect frequency response.
4. Don't use consoles with high backs that prevent proper speaker height positioning.

A very easy and intuitive axial mode room calculator can more acoustics information are available for free at Carl's website: Carl Tatz Design: Acoustic Design, Analysis and Implementation

Thanks for the CARL TATZ tips...but, when he says 67 inches tweeter to tweeter does that apply to nearfields? Wouldn't that be a massive distance for nearfield monitors?
Old 31st August 2011
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by hauntedclutter View Post
So, I always read that your ears should be directly in line with the tweeters when listening to monitors. My monitor stands are 36 inches high.

However, no chair that I know of really gets you that high off of the ground...standing straight up in my chair (I'm 6' 1) my ears are still a little below the tweeters.

How do people of different heights accommodate in order to get your ears in the correct sweet spot in relation to the tweeters? How crucial is it?
Speaker placement and listening position is important and can be a game of inch's. You can buy stands at different heights, so that's always an option.
Old 31st August 2011
  #6
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelDoc View Post

Do space your near-field monitors far enough apart so that the apex of your equilateral triangle is 18 inches behind your head.

Don't use any other angle other than 30 degrees for stereophonic monitoring. The laws of physics determined this for stereophonic listening 50 years ago.
I have believed in the "do" above as a starting point for a long time. speaker positioning is all about getting from the starting point to the focal point.

I've read the "don't" before and I do not buy into absolutes such as this. Depending on the dispersion characteristics of the tweeter, cabinet diffraction, etc., I think again of starting points in the world of YMMVariations. Does that comment pretend that some kind of physics audio unity happened 50 years ago, a sort of audio engineering Big Bang?
Old 31st August 2011
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

[QUOTE=IntelDoc;6986660]
2. Do space your near-field monitors far enough apart so that the apex of your equilateral triangle is 18 inches behind your head. (recommend 67.5 inches from tweeter to tweeter)


I may be misunderstanding or just dumb...but, wouldn't your "head" be the apex of the equilateral triangle? I don't understand what "18 inches behind your head" means?
Old 31st August 2011
  #8
Lives for gear
 
DCtoDaylight's Avatar
 

[QUOTE=hauntedclutter;6986868]
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelDoc View Post
2. Do space your near-field monitors far enough apart so that the apex of your equilateral triangle is 18 inches behind your head. (recommend 67.5 inches from tweeter to tweeter)


I may be misunderstanding or just dumb...but, wouldn't your "head" be the apex of the equilateral triangle? I don't understand what "18 inches behind your head" means?
I just had some personal experience with this, after moving into a new room and getting a new set of monitors. I set things up with my head at the apex, and noticed that I (and other people who were at my studio) kept leaning forward while listening.

I did some trial and error, and rearranged the furniture a little, and found that, sure enough, things sounded WAY better when the listening position is farther forward. I haven't measured, but 18 inches is probably pretty close to where I ended up. So this info is very reassuring!

But yeah, the 67.5 inch spacing seems like a lot, unless you're in a pretty big room. Mine are closer to 45 or so.
Old 31st August 2011
  #9
Lives for gear
 
AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

[QUOTE=hauntedclutter;6986868]
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelDoc View Post
2. Do space your near-field monitors far enough apart so that the apex of your equilateral triangle is 18 inches behind your head. (recommend 67.5 inches from tweeter to tweeter)


I may be misunderstanding or just dumb...but, wouldn't your "head" be the apex of the equilateral triangle? I don't understand what "18 inches behind your head" means?
That's not the position of your head, it's the "toe" of the speaker.
meaning, if the tweeters shot laser-beams instead of sound, you'd want the beams to cross behind your head (instead of blinding your eyes).

Your head and speakers should be spaced the same distance apart still.
Old 31st August 2011
  #10
Gear Maniac
 

[QUOTE=AwwDeOhh;6987112]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hauntedclutter View Post

That's not the position of your head, it's the "toe" of the speaker.
meaning, if the tweeters shot laser-beams instead of sound, you'd want the beams to cross behind your head (instead of blinding your eyes).

Your head and speakers should be spaced the same distance apart still.
Not sure what you mean by "toe" of the speaker? Is there anyone who would be willing to draw a quick diagram of the 18" apex concept, in case I'm not the only one who is ignorant or confused?
Old 31st August 2011
  #11
It does apply to nearfields as well. I have done it (close) with all of my monitors unless I was running more than one pair. Right now I have swapped out my B&W's to a pair of Paradigms and followed this rule and love what I am hearing. My Blue Sky's were setup this way too. The 18 inch behind your head rule is like the one above mentioned to get the point of speakers to be 18 inches behind your head as a sweet spot zone. Believe it or not it is focused.

This was the only picture that I could find that was somewhat representing the idea. You will see the equilateral triangle but the tweeters extend back behind the head. The Tatz read is a physics thing they figure out years ago. I will say that a good friend has a small listening space but uses Barefoot monitors. I first saw his photo and asked if he had tried it. He did the 67.5 inch rule and later called me in amazement. It is worth experimenting with if you can try it.

BTW: 67.5 inches is just a smidge outside my Argosy console designed for the Control 24.

Old 31st August 2011
  #12
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelDoc View Post
It does apply to nearfields as well. I have done it (close) with all of my monitors unless I was running more than one pair. Right now I have swapped out my B&W's to a pair of Paradigms and followed this rule and love what I am hearing. My Blue Sky's were setup this way too. The 18 inch behind your head rule is like the one above mentioned to get the point of speakers to be 18 inches behind your head as a sweet spot zone. Believe it or not it is focused.

This was the only picture that I could find that was somewhat representing the idea. You will see the equilateral triangle but the tweeters extend back behind the head. The Tatz read is a physics thing they figure out years ago. I will say that a good friend has a small listening space but uses Barefoot monitors. I first saw his photo and asked if he had tried it. He did the 67.5 inch rule and later called me in amazement. It is worth experimenting with if you can try it.

BTW: 67.5 inches is just a smidge outside my Argosy console designed for the Control 24.

Thanks. I better understand the concept now...

But, how would you measure the apex of that furthest point back? Is there a formula you use or something?
Old 31st August 2011
  #13
Personally I did the string thing and made it hit the point where I thought my head would be 18 inches back. I measured the 67.5 tweet to tweet and then made that triangle with string and a mic stand. Seemed to work pretty damn good

Same idea really. I would try it with a equilateral string setup and get your head 18 inches in (roughly) from the point of the rear triangle.
Old 31st August 2011
  #14
Lives for gear
 
AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

as the diagram (thanks) shows above, the speakers are "aimed" past you (but you and the speakers are still in the equilateral triangle)

What does this do?
Well, as best as i can explain it, it takes into account the size of your head (and the physical spacing between you ears).
So, instead of converging on your nose, the sound [speaker] actually is pointed more towards your ears. Try it. you may find you like them pointed further back, depending on your speakers/room size too.
Old 31st August 2011
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

thanks everyone for all of the info. I really appreciate it!
Old 31st August 2011
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
as the diagram (thanks) shows above, the speakers are "aimed" past you (but you and the speakers are still in the equilateral triangle)

What does this do?
Well, as best as i can explain it, it takes into account the size of your head (and the physical spacing between you ears).
So, instead of converging on your nose, the sound [speaker] actually is pointed more towards your ears. Try it. you may find you like them pointed further back, depending on your speakers/room size too.
Yep... I really suggest at least trying the 30 degree, 67.5 inch thing. It really does something in a good way.
Old 1st September 2011
  #17
Lives for gear
 

Great thread! Now I got to go rearrange my monitors!
Old 2nd September 2011
  #18
Lives for gear
 
Deltones's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelDoc View Post

BTW: 67.5 inches is just a smidge outside my Argosy console designed for the Control 24.
Does that mean that your head is at least 67.5 inches away from your left tweeter for example? Either your desk is mighty deep, or you placed your desk pretty far away so that you could have the required distance for an equilateral triangle.

Or I could be completely lost with my geometry.

At my place, my desk is 36 inches deep, my Venice F32 is on it as well as my HS80M. From tweeter to tweeter, I have about 35 inches. When I sit at the console, my left ear is about 45 inches away from the left tweeter. 67.5 inches... Jeez. At one point, got to work with the space you have available.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #19
Deltone,
My monitors are off my wall a few feet, then there is a gap from that to my console. I then have it set to be 67.5 (give or take a smidge) but yes it is that distance and works. I will setup the string again and take a picture.

I recently swapped out my old B&W 600's and blue sky system one for a pair of more hi fi Paradigms Monitor 7s. They are still powered by the Crown D-75 and have the Blue Sky sub attached. I am so far, VERY happy with the setup and once the new custom stands are build I will put the blue skies back on board but a little closer in.

I will take a photo here and post it up.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #20
So I did a quick setup with my strings to show you what I did. I could not put the string across teh pair as the monitor is now in the way, but it is 67.5"









The distance from the back wall to the front of the speaker is 2' 3". If I am sitting up in the chair, leaning in of course, you can see that my head will be forward enough to be in that 18" range to the back point of the speaker apex. It translates very well so far with the new mixes I am pushing thru it. And yes so far I am really liking mixing through these speakers. I am having a pal make a steel plate, post, steel plate (filled with dense sand) speaker stand. Should weigh in the 80lb range when it is done and will be spiked off the floor as well as the speakers will be spiked off the plate.

Hope this helps?
Old 2nd September 2011
  #21
Lives for gear
 
Deltones's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelDoc View Post
So I did a quick setup with my strings to show you what I did. I could not put the string across teh pair as the monitor is now in the way, but it is 67.5"



The distance from the back wall to the front of the speaker is 2' 3". If I am sitting up in the chair, leaning in of course, you can see that my head will be forward enough to be in that 18" range to the back point of the speaker apex. It translates very well so far with the new mixes I am pushing thru it. And yes so far I am really liking mixing through these speakers. I am having a pal make a steel plate, post, steel plate (filled with dense sand) speaker stand. Should weigh in the 80lb range when it is done and will be spiked off the floor as well as the speakers will be spiked off the plate.

Hope this helps?
First of all, sweet setup, and yeah, the pictures do help in visualizing it. I'll definitely have to try that string trick on my own setup.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltones View Post
First of all, sweet setup, and yeah, the pictures do help in visualizing it. I'll definitely have to try that string trick on my own setup.
Thanks man - it is ever changing. The Paradigms were collecting dust upstairs as my receiver died and I was bored with the Blue Sky's and B&W's so I figured I would try em out. Love how they work so far. I will eventually go to Focal Twin 6's but a kid here in 8 days - gotta prep for that and make things work. I am getting a second Brute Comp and a Dual Vandergraph to finish off the 500 soon though. The brute is KILLER

Try the setup - it is pretty amazing.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #23
Gear Maniac
 

@inteldoc

Thanks for all of the time you took educating all of us in this thread. Much appreciated!!
Old 2nd September 2011
  #24
No prob man - just trying to always make my space sound better. Some things have been tried and tested, so why not try it ya know. For me and my space it worked well. I actually realized that I was pushing my mains too much so the lowend was getting buried. Once I lowered my power amp the mains settled and the low came thru. A buddy of mine and I then leveled that out and things just seem to really fit. The good thing is that I am not monitoring at huge volumes either. At low levels things still sound great.

Try it
Old 2nd September 2011
  #25
Lives for gear
I used to monitor with the speakers aimed a little behind my head as previously described. It DID sound better. BUT... my mixes did not translate as well in the real world. So I went back to mixing with my ears sitting on the lines of the equalateral triangle. My mixes started translating better. So that's how I do it now.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris carter View Post
I used to monitor with the speakers aimed a little behind my head as previously described. It DID sound better. BUT... my mixes did not translate as well in the real world. So I went back to mixing with my ears sitting on the lines of the equalateral triangle. My mixes started translating better. So that's how I do it now.
I think it is dependent on the room and the monitors. In my situation I caneasily lean in and get distance behind or sit in the chair and get equal.

best of both worlds really.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump