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Pro Tools HD Native vs Pro Tools TDM.....which one sounds Better??
Old 8th August 2011
  #1
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zak7's Avatar
 

Pro Tools HD Native vs Pro Tools TDM.....which one sounds Better??

Recently on an AVID Interview and Frank Fiiipetti said that Pro Tools HD Native sounds way better than the TDM Systems.... is that true??
Old 8th August 2011
  #2
Lives for gear
 

It's been discussed already.
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #3
Gear Maniac
 

There is no sonic difference at all....every test I've tried is a perfect null.
Old 8th August 2011
  #4
Gear Maniac
 
Doc_'s Avatar
 

can't link direct...but from our web site

Q: What was a surprising thing you were happy to discover when using ProTools HD Native?

The sound of HD Native to my ear is very accurate...what goes in comes back out with no discernible color or artifact. In the past, I've avoided summing in the box as much as possible...with HD Native I find that summing is colorless and punchy and I'm subgrouping things in the box that I never would have considered on the TDM platform

Frank Fiiipetti ain't alone...I have listened to many many things that null and are much different sonically...tests can be deceiving....
Old 8th August 2011
  #5
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_ View Post
can't link direct...but from our web site

Q: What was a surprising thing you were happy to discover when using ProTools HD Native?

The sound of HD Native to my ear is very accurate...what goes in comes back out with no discernible color or artifact. In the past, I've avoided summing in the box as much as possible...with HD Native I find that summing is colorless and punchy and I'm subgrouping things in the box that I never would have considered on the TDM platform

Frank Fiiipetti ain't alone...I have listened to many many things that null and are much different sonically...tests can be deceiving....
God where have you been my whole life!I'm gonna challeng this null test.

There was a time that copied cd's were exact duplicates,I know different now.

But wondering how many copies of a copy will null after importing a single song.

Give it to the null police,even though my ears will be well aware of thinning from the copying process!(of the later copies)

My point is even if takes 20 copies the loss data start from the very first copy.question at what number digital copy will it no longer null or will it ever not null?

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Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_ View Post
I have listened to many many things that null and are much different sonically
LOL
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #7
Lives for gear
 

PT HD Native uses 64 bit floating point for mixing, whereas TDM uses 48 bit fixed. There are a few people who have tested both systems with the exact same interfaces and have mentioned that HD Native sounds slightly better.
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #8
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zak7's Avatar
 

So that means that in PT10 TDM that sonic difference can not be matched???? is the TDM architecture limited to improve or match the quality of HD Native?
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
Give it to the null police,even though my ears will be well aware of thinning from the copying process!(of the later copies)

My point is even if takes 20 copies the loss data start from the very first copy.question at what number digital copy will it no longer null or will it ever not null?
Are you f-ing serious? Really?
Old 8th August 2011
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
Are you f-ing serious? Really?
Hey this is gs no smooth sailing for you buddy.besides I've read you post you like to mix it up a little lol.peace man.

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Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #11
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I have no idea what that ^ means. I'm just going to say that if you were serious, you really need to do some personal investigation into how file copying works, and into psychological phenomena such as expectation/confirmation bias.

It worries and confuses me that the term "null police" has begun to be a derogatory way of referring to certain people on this board.

I don't have the inclination to talk about the audio equivalent of unicorns and homeopathy ... bye
Old 8th August 2011
  #12
Lives for gear
But you have the inclination to tell me you don't HAVE THE inclination to talk about it,because you don't agree?see ya!

I didn't ask for your inclination any ole way.

By the way don't call anyone on this board a homeo!

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Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #13
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tobymusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nst7 View Post
PT HD Native uses 64 bit floating point for mixing, whereas TDM uses 48 bit fixed. There are a few people who have tested both systems with the exact same interfaces and have mentioned that HD Native sounds slightly better.
These figures are both wrong! Funny, where did you get these?
Take a look at the white paper about the TDM architecture on the AVID website.

I would suggest the big difference is that the native engine will pass 32 bit audio from the mixer to plug-ins, whereas the TDM engine will pass 24 bit audio from the mixer to plug-ins which helps when you're dealing with signals that have been recorded very hot. In that case it's easy to overload the output of a plug-in.

BTW, I'm still in the "TDM sounds better" camp, but I've gotten used to the TDM mixer and love the fact that is still sounds great even when you run 140+ tracks on a mix.
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
God where have you been my whole life!I'm gonna challeng this null test.

There was a time that copied cd's were exact duplicates,I know different now.

But wondering how many copies of a copy will null after importing a single song.

Give it to the null police,even though my ears will be well aware of thinning from the copying process!(of the later copies)

My point is even if takes 20 copies the loss data start from the very first copy.question at what number digital copy will it no longer null or will it ever not null?

Sent from my PC36100 using Gearslutz.com App
You still don't get it....seriously, learn some digital theory...now you're just trolling, or at best, looking very dumb.
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
There was a time that copied cd's were exact duplicates,I know different now.
There is a possibility that early CD copies are not 100% clones, because of errors in the burning process (and thus error correction working differently between the 2 CDs). These CDs are technically NOT clones, and so if they don't null, it's provable why, and they may not even "sound" the same. Unlikely, but possible (and technically provable).

Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
But wondering how many copies of a copy will null after importing a single song.
If it's a true "copy" it will null. If it's not (say your CD is scratched, and error correction is employed) then it's not a copy.

Think about it for just one second - when you copy a word file 100 times, spelling mistakes don't creep in do they?! If a file gets corrupted, then you know about it - the file generally doesn't open (or if it does, you have to open it in a text editor).

it's EXACTLY the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
Give it to the null police,even though my ears will be well aware of thinning from the copying process!(of the later copies)
If that's the case, your ears don't work properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
My point is even if takes 20 copies the loss data start from the very first copy.question at what number digital copy will it no longer null or will it ever not null?
It will ALWAYS null if it's a digital copy, the same way your Word document will always contain what is written. If it ever DOESN'T null, there's been an error in the copying process (and your file is now corrupt).
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #16
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post

There was a time that copied cd's were exact duplicates,I know different now.
Then they are not copies and error has been introduced.

I can assure you - the copies I've done over the last 20 or so years have been bitwise perfect!! Error correction sees to that (look up Hamming code for a introduction to this scene).
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
Great so i have you 2 committed,ill start the thread im sure you 2 will find it.

Professor_monkey lighten up manITS CALLED THEORY,but your bringing up the "daw plugin,turn null thread"its cool man....take it easy.
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
Great so i have you 2 committed,ill start the thread im sure you 2 will find it.

Professor_monkey lighten up man
Light as a feather here mate
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Light as a feather here mate

great ill work on not being a royal pain in your "arse".
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
great ill work on not being a royal pain in your "arse".
You do that....
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Then they are not copies and error has been introduced.

I can assure you - the copies I've done over the last 20 or so years have been bitwise perfect!! Error correction sees to that (look up Hamming code for a introduction to this scene).
thats great news but im kinda judging that from bootleg cd's they suck in quality,no biggy though.
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
Doc_'s Avatar
 

we have both systems currently running here...although they do null,there is without question a perceived difference in the two,in blind tests...

we understand identical should be identical,but it may have to do with the process along the way...all we can figure...

with that said, it is subjective as to what sounds better,and both platforms can clearly make a record...

peace
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #23
Gear Maniac
 
beau's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_ View Post
with that said, it is subjective as to what sounds better,and both platforms can clearly make a record...
How much latency are you getting?

Are you able to record scratch guitars or bass using amp farm, sansamp, guitar rig with a whole band and not have the latency issues? Or is it simply just "manageable" if the players adjust to compensate for the delayed monitoring?

Not trying to jump on either side of the argument, but those would be the concerns I would have, moving from a TDM system to a native system.

Thanks,

Beau
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
Doc_'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by beau View Post
How much latency are you getting?

Are you able to record scratch guitars or bass using amp farm, sansamp, guitar rig with a whole band and not have the latency issues? Or is it simply just "manageable" if the players adjust to compensate for the delayed monitoring?

Not trying to jump on either side of the argument, but those would be the concerns I would have, moving from a TDM system to a native system.

Thanks,

Beau
Beau,those are definite concerns...using plugins on input can be challenging if you have many plugins using up the processing power of the host computer...if there is a very large track count, with dozens of plugins open a overdub may require disabling some plugins to get the take.

with the latest Apple 8 core... 32-64 buffers is really no problem,which in most cases will not introduce enough latency to be a problem.There is a threshold on any system,and when crossed will give you problems.

starting from scratch with a bands full of plugins open for tracking should not be a problem though.
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_ View Post
we have both systems currently running here...although they do null,there is without question a perceived difference in the two,in blind tests...
But that's quite obviously a contradiction - if the results null, there's NO difference in the end product.

When you say a "perceived difference", are you referring to sound or workflow?
Old 8th August 2011
  #26
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s.d.finley's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_ View Post
we have both systems currently running here...although they do null,there is without question a perceived difference in the two,in blind tests...

we understand identical should be identical,but it may have to do with the process along the way...all we can figure...

with that said, it is subjective as to what sounds better,and both platforms can clearly make a record...

peace
Doc do both systems use the same type of interface/clock?

Asfaras what is on Avids site concerning FF; I believe that is called 'marketing'.
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #27
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Doc Mixwell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
But that's quite obviously a contradiction - if the results null, there's NO difference in the end product.

When you say a "perceived difference", are you referring to sound or workflow?
I believe I can algin my opinion, with the people who are hearing a difference in HD native....

These systems are sounding different and nulling....go figure???
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #28
Gear Maniac
 
Doc_'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by s.d.finley View Post
Doc do both systems use the same type of interface/clock?

Asfaras what is on Avids site concerning FF; I believe that is called 'marketing'.
we have a Apogee Symphony i/o used on both the TDM and Native systems...I am going to try and find time to get some examples together...

the mixes we have been listening to I can not put up on the forum,the artist will freak...

I do understand the contradiction here completely,but it is what it is...
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
I believe I can algin my opinion, with the people who are hearing a difference in HD native....

These systems are sounding different and nulling....go figure???
Exactly - whatever my personal opinion, if someone says they've blind tested and consistently people hear a difference, that has to be looked into further...but if the results null, there's a cock-up somewhere...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_ View Post
we have a Apogee Symphony i/o used on both the TDM and Native systems...I am going to try and find time to get some examples together...

the mixes we have been listening to I can not put up on the forum,the artist will freak...

I do understand the contradiction here completely,but it is what it is...
Understandable re the mixes.

But you can understand the confusion, right? if 2 identical bit-for-bit copies "sound" different, there's something else going on...either that, or they're not identical, and you're making an error in the null test.
Old 8th August 2011 | Show parent
  #30
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Tobymusic,

Yes, I have read the White Papers. One of them is called, amazingly, "The 48 Bit Mixer", explaining about TDM.

And if you go to the Avid website and read the overview about HD Native, it specifically mentions the 64 bit floating point.

The fact is they use two different mixing methods and that may account for the slight differences that people are hearing.
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