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King Crimson - Discipline
Old 6th August 2011
  #1
Gear Nut
 

King Crimson - Discipline

Can anyone point me to wear I can find some details of the recording of this album? Specifically the signal chain for Fripp's part in Frame By Frame. Its gotta be recorded direct, but into what!

Killer track, killer record!
Old 6th August 2011
  #2
Gear Head
 
Left to starve's Avatar
 

Yes, definitely my favorite crimson record.
Old 6th August 2011
  #3
Gear Nut
 

I know Fripp was into Roland guitar synths and amps when this album was recorded. So the guitar used was probably a Roland.
Old 7th August 2011
  #4
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Muser's Avatar
Fripp. Roland GR-300 guitar system with a couple of the CV pedals. Roland JC-120. a Fender Twin. Roland Space Echo. maybe the 201.
some clever switching systems to be able to perform all the important backbone of the track live.

Belew. Strat, Roland JC-120. I think he uses the roland DC-30 and a Electro Harmonix Deluxe Memory Man. I think he probably uses some kind of momentary footswitch trick to kick them in and rout them to the amp.

the DC-30 for when he hits the strings above the nut and the EH is mounted on a stand for hands on control.

They probably use other tricks too in the way they use the JC amps. I think one speaker on the JC handled the chorus with some pitch modulation. so I guess if you could switch one speaker off you'd get a slightly modulated pitch. I think they use a good degree of compression as well. but how they might exploit all the possible routes to a desk in a recording situation by using an extension speaker from one side of the roland JC for more separation or whatever else, is anyones guess.

Belew seems to have a downgraded slightly delayed signal in the right, often. but in a studio you could possibly do that using something like a lexicon primetime.

I doubt they use much direct signal. Fripp gets his sound coming out of his amps so I doubt he'd need a direct signal. Often tony Levin is playing two parts as well. his chapman stick is probably split with the higher strings going to a JC-120. so the fast riffs are doubled by Levin while he also plays the Bass line on the lower strings, through a different amp and cab.

There were a number of revisions on the JC-120 Amps and there's no real resource I know of that explains them.

but knowing these guys philosophy on performance, they probably just recorded live.
Old 7th August 2011
  #5
Gear Maniac
 

I would think a large part of that sound is pure technique.

You can get similar tone with the in-between positions of a good strat.

Check out the Crafty Guitar stuff with Fripp, and their acoustic guitars can get a similar tone.

Not so much the equipment, just how it's played.
Old 7th August 2011
  #6
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mrmike186's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
I think one speaker on the JC handled the chorus with some pitch modulation. so I guess if you could switch one speaker off you'd get a slightly modulated pitch.
I thought the beauty of the JC 120 was the real chorus of two speakers going back and forth. Also used by Andy Summers for those classic Police recordings.

I had a front row seat of this tour in 1980 or 81. I am not a guitar geek but I do remember TONS of foot pedals for Fripp and Belew.
Old 7th August 2011
  #7
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Silvertone's Avatar
You could go to the Three of a Perfect Pair camp that Tony, Adrian and Pat Mastelotto are hosting at Blue Moon Resort in a few weeks and ask them. All of them are just great guys with very interesting war stories...

Three of a Perfect Pair Camp
Old 7th August 2011
  #8
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Muser's Avatar
Yeah, Fripp and Summers also made that sheltering sky record together.

Belew & Fripp seem to have a number of footswitches, but I rarely saw many FX pedals as such. around that time at least. Later, Fripp got a rather complex setup but he seems to have rationalized it the last time I saw. maybe for more efficient transport. it basically looked like 3 Eventide 7600's.

Belew though had an insane array of equipment. I expect it's his experimental rig and maybe a studio rig. but I guess he rationalized the choices for live. and the sounds he used for the particular project.

actually the thing he uses on the stand live isn't the Electro Harmonix Deluxe Memory Man it's the Poly Chorus.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmike186 View Post
I thought the beauty of the JC 120 was the real chorus of two speakers going back and forth. Also used by Andy Summers for those classic Police recordings.

I had a front row seat of this tour in 1980 or 81. I am not a guitar geek but I do remember TONS of foot pedals for Fripp and Belew.
Old 7th August 2011
  #9
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jmikeperkins's Avatar
I also saw the Discipline tour when it came through Austin, TX. I remember Roland stuff everywhere. Despite all the gear, Fripp's tone was actually fairly clean and dry. Belew, on the other hand, made his guitar sound like an elephant. Belew was the comic foil, Fripp was the straight man, and their guitar tones matched their roles. REALLY SOLID sounding band on that tour. Bruford and Tony Levin were amazingly tight as a rhythm section, almost hypnotic.
Old 8th August 2011
  #10
Gear Nut
 

Adrian Belew came to Buenos Aires few months ago. I went to his Guitar Clinic, which basically was an "interview" of all of us (probably 40-50 guys) asking him different things. Regarding Frame by Frame, he explained that he and Fripp played kind of the same riff, one of them with one additional note, so, it sound "weird" until a number of repetitions, where it is all consistent again, just for one bar, and then the "oddity" began again. He explained that those days Fripp was well into oriental music and gamelan music. To give us an example of that, Adrian recorded one of the guitars of Frame by Frame in his loop pedal, and then he played Robert's part over it. If I remember correctly, the two guitars sounded in "sync" every 6 rounds. It was an interesting concept.

I always thought it was some delay there, but Adrian explained that no delay was used, and the "effect" we heard was because of this technique.

I hope I made a good explanation of what I heard from him, it is difficult to explain it in English, which is not my first language, as you sure already know by now.

Thanks and regards,
Martin
Old 8th August 2011
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinoto View Post
I hope I made a good explanation of what I heard from him
Very well stated.

Thank you for that insight, Martin.
Old 8th August 2011
  #12
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RCM - Ronan's Avatar
One of my favorite albums ever.

One big highlight of my career was getting to mix a live album of King Crimson recorded right after they finished that album and they were playing all the tunes from that album. It was amazing to feel like I was sort of working on one of my favorite albums of all time.
Old 8th August 2011
  #13
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Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCM - Ronan View Post
One of my favorite albums ever.

One big highlight of my career was getting to mix a live album of King Crimson recorded right after they finished that album and they were playing all the tunes from that album. It was amazing to feel like I was sort of working on one of my favorite albums of all time.
I know what you mean Ronan. Tony Levin was one of my all time favorite bass players when growing up. Saw the Discipline tour, saw him with Gabriel many times. To end up being friends with him and getting to master his last 3 albums (also got to mix a song on the last one as well) has been quite a trip for me.

I just got done with an album that has Tony playing bass, Alan White from Yes on the drums and David Torn playing guitar... reminded me of King Crimson meets Yes... individually, some of the best work these guys have done IMHO. Will be out in September on Lazy Bones Records out of New Zealand. (I'm not trying to "plug it", I'm just very excited by this special piece of work... apologies).

For me Discipline and Three of a Perfect Pair were THE two defacto King Crimson records! I has just started playing Chapman Stick around this time, so you can imagine having these two albums to go by and trying to cop some of Tonys Stick playing... I was so over my head at the time... still am!
Old 8th August 2011
  #14
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Bob Ross's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
I just got done with an album that has Tony playing bass, Alan White from Yes on the drums and David Torn playing guitar... reminded me of King Crimson meets Yes... individually, some of the best work these guys have done IMHO. Will be out in September on Lazy Bones Records out of New Zealand. (I'm not trying to "plug it", I'm just very excited by this special piece of work... apologies).
Ha! I just learned about the existence of this album maybe a week ago, stumbled across mention of it on Tony's website. I am very excited! Looking forward to its release.
Old 8th August 2011
  #15
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steveschizoid's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
For me Discipline and Three of a Perfect Pair were THE two defacto King Crimson records! I has just started playing Chapman Stick around this time, so you can imagine having these two albums to go by and trying to cop some of Tonys Stick playing... I was so over my head at the time... still am!
I thought Beat was pretty stellar as well!
Old 8th August 2011
  #16
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Nighthawk77's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Left to starve View Post
Yes, definitely my favorite crimson record.
I also saw this tour, great album!
Shortly after I was invited to meet Mr. Fripp to talk to him about recording a live CD.
I drove down to meet him with a friend of mine, while eating lunch in a cafe, Fripp walked in with a lovely blue acoustic guitar, said nothing, sat down at our table and played while we ate.
The place was empty except for my friend, Fripp and myself.

He played for some time, said very little, then left.

Amazing stuff, later saw him improving with the League of Crafty Guitarist.
I have many of his solo and Crimson discs but I have to say his acoustic playing was some of the best I have heard.
Old 8th August 2011
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveschizoid View Post
I thought Beat was pretty stellar as well!
That whole trio of albums is great. Discipline is still my fave. On my very first listen to Frame By Frame, I figured it was some sort of sequencer. I had a hard time believing my friend (who played the record for me) when he told me that was a guitarist playing live. Mind blowing.

Here's a great video from the Beat tour. Fantastic show opener:




And not to take this discussion off track by touching off some silly analog/digital kind of debate, but I do think that the footage is all the more magical and dramatic for its being shot on film rather than video. Adds some kind of intangible depth to the music IMHO.
Old 8th August 2011
  #18
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TurboJets's Avatar
"Red" slays me.

Fripp is a god.
Old 8th August 2011
  #19
Don't even get me started on Red! John Wetton's bass sounds like friggin' brontosaurus- glorious Hiwatt growl.

At the time, I really thought the trio of 80s Crimson albums was the dawn of a new form of music. I was a teenager when they came out and I just thought they would make a lot of music obsolete. I was in a cover band doing INXS and Fixx covers with a drummer who was obsessed with Bruford. you can imagine the musical implications.
Old 8th August 2011
  #20
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Appleroad's Avatar
 

Hey all- A longtime friend of mine was monitor engineer on the Discipline tour. I asked him for any insights into the stage rigs, and here's his initial response-more to come!

"Basics: Adrian and Robert both used Roland JC120 amps. We ran them into the PA with double DI boxes (no mics). Adrian played his beat up Zappa era Strat with an Alembic 9v tone booster built in, that was always on. It started with a stock Fender trem and ended with a Kahler locking trem. Robert played a Roland G 808 guitar with GR300 synth. His main pedal was the classic Burns Buzzaround. Adrian had Roland analog delay (green box not pedal) EH Memoryman, Envelope Filter, a mute switch for stuttering guitar sound, Boss chorus (the big metal one) lots of stuff in a suitcase that we ended up rack mounting."
Old 8th August 2011
  #21
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Appleroad's Avatar
 

stuttering guitar sound, sorry!
Old 9th August 2011
  #22
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Muser's Avatar
hmmm interesting.. boy Roland have a lot to answer for.

Those alembic boosters are available btw.
Old 9th August 2011
  #23
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tzujan's Avatar
 

Love Discipline, got to see the original tour as well as several others including a show a 12th and Porter in Nashville - almost made me want to move there!

If you are a fan of the record you owe it to yourself to get the DGM remastered version. From my understanding, the original CD masters of Three of A Perfect Pair and Discipline were transfers from vinyl where as the DGM versions were re-mastered from the master tapes. The differences are huge. And I don't mean just loudness, but clarity detail and overall sound quality.
Old 9th August 2011
  #24
In that case, I shall stick to my vinyl copies which sound excellent. That said, I got the recent anniversary reissue CD of Red for the bonus tracks and it was well- worth purchasing.

Funny that this thread should come up now. My primary care physician is a big King Crimson fan- we often get distracted from my healthcare talking about them- and a recent visit with him and this thread prompted me to buy tickets to see Adrian Belew in Boston next month. Tony Levin's Stickmen is opening, so you're all to blame for a night of me hanging with total prog- geeks that is sure to make a Star Trek convention look like a biker rally in comparison.
Old 9th August 2011
  #25
Gear Addict
 
rynugz007's Avatar
 

There is a live DVD from that era called "neal and jack and me". 2 seperate concerts, both sooooo good. I found a copy at best buy.

Sent from my DROID2 using Gearslutz.com App
Old 9th August 2011
  #26
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ddageek's Avatar
 

This thread sent me looking for my rolodex from the late 90s, I was trying to find Fripps old guitar tech John Stark, as well as the guys from the old Midi Switching Guys at Uptown technologies.
Any time either would walk in the door or call it was at least an hour of Crimson talk! Then we would end up at Intelix and talk about the king Crimson monitor rig
Old 9th August 2011
  #27
Gear Addict
 

I saw the Discipline tour. Don't remember what Belew had for pedals but I do remember Fripp had a RAT and a JC120 that night. Not a combination I'd think to use but boy did he sound good. The whole band was incredible and unbelievably tight. Great show.
Old 9th August 2011
  #28
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TurboJets's Avatar
It's interesting how this topic comes up now of Fripp, King Crimson, leading eventually no doubt to more discussion on prog rock and prog guitars. For me anyway. I am just getting into a phase of trying to uderstand Fripp concepts like Soundscapes for ambient electric guitar.

I just bought a Seagull 12 string and it makes me think of Greg Lake and the sound deserves a nice lush background of sequenced ambient guitar. Been looking at some of Roger Linn's latest offerings to help make that happen. Has anyone in the thread played with the AdrenaLinn sequencer stuff?
Old 19th August 2011
  #29
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Muser's Avatar
currently I'm making a link between early Mike Oldfield and later Crimson and Eno.

some early Oldfield is sort of like steve reich, Moondog and Irish/Scottish folk mixed in a the vat, manned by James Joyce.

oldfield seems to be already making the GR300 type sounds, just with his technique and approach to the studio as an instrument.

early Oldfield is blowing me away right now.

later Crimson really wasn't that popular in the UK, neither was Eno really. but I'm not sure how much they struck a chord in the U.S.
U.S. is obviously vast as a market, but what they did seem to have been able to make much more sense over there.
Old 19th August 2011
  #30
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
later Crimson really wasn't that popular in the UK
So, they prefer "I talk to the Wind" to "ProzaKc Blues" or "Happy with What You Have to Be Happy With"?

Fancy.

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