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fakery in todays music
Old 30th May 2011
  #61
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I was begging for autotune while watching mike tyson try to sing at the end of "the Hangover 2"

other than that, i prefer a genuine performance
Old 30th May 2011
  #62
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Antaren - Indeed, The King's Speech was a wonderful movie. One of the best I've seen in a long while. I love Geoffrey Rush and Colin Firth. There are always exceptions to generalities. My point was that the majority is crap.
Old 30th May 2011
  #63
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric2sax View Post
  • You put 5 talented musicians on one stage playing instruments and singing direct through PA system.
  • Then put on a second stage 3 musicans, a bunch of tracks, pyro, half-naked dancing women & guys.
Who will the masses be attracted to?

Its always been about the audience (the record buyers) and what they want. In this age of 50 million dollar movies and effects that entertain us. It is only natural that the music audience wants to be entertained in like fashion.

I don't like it, but understand it. My hope is that the audience for real unfiltered live music does not die...
You talk like there's only one audience.

Sure, if one wants the biggest audience, he can try to play to the lowest common denominator, debasing the content in order to keep the interest and attention of the shallowest minds and shortest attention spans. And depending on how far you're willing to debase yourself and your music, you can probably hang on to many of those folks. But it will surely come at the cost of losing audience from the other end of the audience spectrum. Ultimately one has to decide what he's doing. Is he trying to make the most money possible or does he want to make music that he'll respect in the morning?
Old 30th May 2011
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solidtube View Post
I'd rather be entertained when I go to a show than admiring how great the musicians were. Norah Jones and her band are great musicians but the show was boring as hell. Michael Jackson might have mimed his singing but his shows were incredibly exciting and entertaining.
I have to say, it is attitudes like this that have put us where we are today. As someone else stated, it used to be that going to hear and see great musicians was entertainment. Why the need for "action" has superceded things like talent escapes me.

Baseball used to be a great game but many found it boring and so the TV suits forced changes like the designated hitter to provide more "action" for the people who did not understand the intricacies of the game.

Movies used to be about plot, acting, and meaningful dialog. These days, that is considered dull so now the majority of movies have lots of "action" and special effects.

Live musical performances used to be about the music. Now if there is not a ton of dancing to hold the interest of the audience, performances are considered boring.

It is evident that the attention span of people has shifted along with the ability to recognize talent or perhaps better put, appreciate talent.

It is indeed sad.
Old 30th May 2011
  #65
Back in the 50s, aging hasbeens and particularly TV personalities used to pick up a few bucks 'performing' at supermarket grand openings and special appearances. They'd put on a record, no band in sight, the singer would lip synch from a fold up stage or the back of a flat bed in between cheezy prize giveaways and such. It's hard to imagine anyone was fooled. I know, as a little kid, I wasn't. Of course, I was the kind of little kid who counted six gun shots and went nuts when cowboys and crooks and cops on TV didn't reload but just kept right on shooting, 18, 20, 30 rounds and more... [This was the quaint era before people felt the need to have 22 round clips.]
Old 30th May 2011
  #66
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Igotsoul4u's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by spice house View Post
the worst is when the musicians that are actually miced up aren't on stage...

bad choice with lady gaga, shes actually very talented but just chooses to make ****ty sounding synth pop music
HAHA. best description of Gaga. Watup philly!!
Old 30th May 2011
  #67
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
since when does entertainment have to be Real?

Movies are not usually.
Television? not often.
Books can or can not be......
Comedy is often just made up.

Nobody ever said you had to pass a musical test to entertain people.
You just have to be entertaining to someone.
There's a big difference between literal truth and artistic truth.

Sadly, many of those inclined to lipsynching seldom deliver either.
Old 30th May 2011
  #68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solidtube View Post
I'd rather be entertained when I go to a show than admiring how great the musicians were. Norah Jones and her band are great musicians but the show was boring as hell. Michael Jackson might have mimed his singing but his shows were incredibly exciting and entertaining.
Proof that we are not all the same. Solidtube probably speaks for many.

But not for me.


No shame in either position.
Old 30th May 2011
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henge View Post
Actually by todays standards most of them sounded like crap!
Compare the sound from the Ed Sullivan show or even Johnny Carson to Saturday Night Live.The sonics are way different. The PERFORMANCES were better but the sound was mostly crap. Might just be me though...
you mean when the bands would fake their instruments on ed sullivan but the singer would really sing? what was that band called... oh yea, the DOORS
Old 30th May 2011
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimOBrienFlorida View Post
The Monkees ... 'faked it' while others played.
until the Monkees said "screw you" to their show's producers and started playing their own instruments both live on tour and in the studio...

just wanted to point out my bizarre knowledge of obscure monkees trivia... ;-)
Old 30th May 2011
  #71
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Great topic...

I'm suprised everyday that ppl eat this stuff
up with a spoon...

The Rat-race takes up all of their time,
no time to question anything----

They wanna work less,
but buy more material things...
Gotta keep up The appearence!

Here's a great article about the state of music:

The Quietus | Opinion | Black Sky Thinking | How The Music Industry Is Killing Music And Blaming The Fans


Amazing!

Best,
Tom
Old 31st May 2011
  #72
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jindrich's Avatar
 

I agree with the original poster.

Today's "music" isn't about music anymore, but about fashion, celebrity, marketing, etc. Thank you MTV.



Remeber 1985's Live Aid concerts? These are the artists that played:


London Wembley Stadium

Coldstream Guards – "Royal Salute", "God Save The Queen" (W 12:00);
Status Quo – "Rockin' All Over the World", "Caroline", "Don't Waste My Time" (W 12:02);
The Style Council – "You're the Best Thing", "Big Boss Groove", "Internationalists", "Walls Come Tumbling Down" (W 12:19);
The Boomtown Rats – "I Don't Like Mondays", "Drag Me Down", "Rat Trap", "For He's A Jolly Good Fellow" (sung by the audience) (W 12:44);
Adam Ant – "Vive Le Rock" (W 13:00);
Ultravox – "Reap The Wild Wind", "Dancing with Tears in My Eyes", "One Small Day", "Vienna" (W 13:16);
Spandau Ballet – "Only When You Leave", "Virgin", "True" (W 13:47);
Elvis Costello – "All You Need Is Love" (W 14:07);
Nik Kershaw – "Wide Boy", "Don Quixote", "The Riddle", "Wouldn't It Be Good" (W 14:22);
Sade – "Why Can't We Live Together", "Your Love Is King", "Is It A Crime" (W 14:55);
Sting and Phil Collins (with Branford Marsalis) – "Roxanne", "Driven To Tears", "Against All Odds (Take A Look At Me Now)", "Message In A Bottle", "In the Air Tonight", "Long Long Way To Go", "Every Breath You Take" (W 15:18);
Howard Jones – "Hide And Seek" (W 15:50)
Bryan Ferry (with Pink Floyd's David Gilmour on guitar) – "Sensation", "Boys And Girls", "Slave To Love", "Jealous Guy" (W 16:07);
Paul Young – "Do They Know It's Christmas?" (intro), "Come Back and Stay", "That's The Way Love Is" (with Alison Moyet), "Every Time You Go Away" (W 16:38);
U2 – "Sunday Bloody Sunday", "Bad" (with snippets of "Satellite Of Love", "Ruby Tuesday", "Sympathy For The Devil" and "Walk On The Wild Side") (W 17:20);
Dire Straits – "Money for Nothing" (with Sting), "Sultans Of Swing" (W 18:00);
Queen (introduced by comedians Mel Smith and Griff Rhys Jones) – "Bohemian Rhapsody"/"Radio Ga-Ga", "Hammer to Fall", "Crazy Little Thing Called Love", "We Will Rock You"/"We Are the Champions" (W 18:44);
David Bowie (with Thomas Dolby on keyboards) – "TVC 15", "Rebel Rebel", "Modern Love", "Heroes" (W 19:22);
The Who (introduced by Jack Nicholson) – "My Generation"/"Pinball Wizard", "Love, Reign O'er Me", "Won't Get Fooled Again" (W 20:00);
Elton John (introduced by Billy Connolly) – "I'm Still Standing", "Bennie and the Jets", "Rocket Man", "Don't Go Breaking My Heart" (with Kiki Dee), "Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me" (with George Michael and backing vocals by Andrew Ridgeley), "Can I Get a Witness" (W 20:50);
Finale at Wembley Stadium:
a) Freddie Mercury and Brian May (Queen) – "Is This The World We Created?" (W 21:48),
b) Paul McCartney – "Let It Be" (W 21:51),
c) Band Aid (led by Bob Geldof) – "Do They Know It's Christmas?" (W 21:54);

JFK Stadium

Bernard Watson – "All I Really Want to Do", "Interview" (JFK 13:51);
Joan Baez (introduced by Jack Nicholson) – "Amazing Grace"/"We Are the World" (JFK 14:02);
The Hooters – "And We Danced", "All You Zombies" (JFK 14:12);
The Four Tops – "Shake Me, Wake Me (When It's Over)", "Bernadette", "It's The Same Old Song", "Reach Out I'll Be There", "I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie, Honey Bunch)" (JFK 14:33);
Billy Ocean – "Caribbean Queen", "Loverboy" (JFK 14:45);
Black Sabbath (introduced by Chevy Chase) – "Children of the Grave", "Iron Man", "Paranoid" (JFK 14:52);
Run-D.M.C. – "Jam Master Jay", "King Of Rock" (JFK 15:12);
Rick Springfield – "Love Somebody", "State of the Heart", "Human Touch" (JFK 15:30);
REO Speedwagon – "Can't Fight This Feeling", "Roll With The Changes" (JFK 15:47);
Crosby, Stills and Nash – "Southern Cross", "Teach Your Children", "Suite: Judy Blue Eyes" (JFK 16:15);
Judas Priest – "Living After Midnight", "The Green Manalishi (With The Two-Pronged Crown)", "You've Got Another Thing Comin'" (JFK 16:26);
Bryan Adams (introduced by Jack Nicholson) – "Kids Wanna Rock", "Summer Of '69", "Tears Are Not Enough", "Cuts Like a Knife" (JFK 17:02);
The Beach Boys (introduced by Marilyn McCoo) – "California Girls", "Help Me, Rhonda", "Wouldn't It Be Nice", "Good Vibrations", "Surfin' USA" (JFK 17:40);
George Thorogood and the Destroyers – "Who Do You Love" (with Bo Diddley), "The Sky Is Crying", "Madison Blues" (with Albert Collins) (JFK 18:26);
Simple Minds – "Ghost Dancing", "Don't You (Forget About Me)", "Promised You A Miracle" (JFK 19:07);
The Pretenders – "Time The Avenger", "Message Of Love", "Stop Your Sobbing", "Back On The Chain Gang", "Middle of the Road" (JFK 19:41);
Santana and Pat Metheny – "Brotherhood", "Primera Invasion", "Open Invitation", "By The Pool"/"Right Now" (JFK 20:21);
Ashford & Simpson – "Solid", "Reach Out and Touch (Somebody's Hand)" (with Teddy Pendergrass) (JFK 20:57);
Madonna (introduced by Bette Midler) – "Holiday", "Into The Groove", "Love Makes The World Go Round" (JFK 21:27);
Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers (introduced by Don Johnson) – "American Girl", "The Waiting", "Rebels", "Refugee" (JFK 22:14);
Kenny Loggins – "Footloose" (JFK 22:30);
The Cars – "You Might Think", "Drive", "Just What I Needed", "Heartbeat City" (JFK 22:49);
Neil Young – "Sugar Mountain", "The Needle and the Damage Done", "Helpless", "Nothing Is Perfect", "Powderfinger" (JFK 23:07);
Power Station – "Murderess", "Get It On" (JFK 23:43);
Thompson Twins – "Hold Me Now", "Revolution" (with Madonna, Steve Stevens and Nile Rodgers) (JFK 00:21);
Eric Clapton (with Phil Collins) – "White Room", "She's Waiting", "Layla" (JFK 00:39);
Phil Collins (having flown Concorde from UK to USA) – "Against All Odds (Take A Look At Me Now)", "In The Air Tonight" (JFK 01:04);
Led Zeppelin Reunion – (with Jimmy Page, Robert Plant, John Paul Jones, Tony Thompson, Paul Martinez, and Phil Collins) – "Rock and Roll", "Whole Lotta Love", "Stairway To Heaven" (JFK 01:10);
Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young – "Only Love Can Break Your Heart", "Daylight Again"/"Find The Cost of Freedom" (JFK 01:40);
Duran Duran – "A View to a Kill", "Union Of The Snake", "Save A Prayer", "The Reflex" (JFK 01:45);
Patti LaBelle – "New Attitude", "Imagine", "Forever Young", "Stir It Up", "Over The Rainbow", "Why Can't I Get It Over" (JFK 02:20);
Hall & Oates – "Out Of Touch", "Maneater", "Get Ready" (with Eddie Kendricks), "Ain't Too Proud To Beg" (with David Ruffin), "The Way You Do The Things You Do", "My Girl" (with Eddie Kendricks and David Ruffin) (JFK 02:50);
Mick Jagger (with Hall & Oates / Eddie Kendricks / David Ruffin) – "Lonely At The Top", "Just Another Night", "Miss You", "State Of Shock"/"It's Only Rock 'n Roll (But I Like It)" (with Tina Turner) (JFK 03:15);
Finale at JFK Stadium:
Bob Dylan, Keith Richards and Ronnie Wood
------------------------------------------------



ALL those artists were the Top of the Pops at the time.

Imagine if you wanted to do a 2011 Live Aid....

....there wouldn't be a single intrument on stage
Old 31st May 2011
  #73
I know as one of the old coots, that that Live Aid band list is supposed to make me go, Yeah man, it was better in the old days.

But, honest to gosh, that list looks, to me, like it's filled with supremely boring, bloated, self-important bands. I'd easily take Gaga over most of them (at that point in time, anyhow*), Auto-Tune and all.

Sorry, my fellow old guys. heh



*Now, you wanna talk about a few of those guys in their prime, Neil Young, Bob Dylan, that's another story. And Elvis Costello was doing some interesting work at that point, for sure. But, overall, I'm afraid it looks like an ordeal to me. More proof, I'm sure, that we're all different.
Old 31st May 2011
  #74
Old 31st May 2011
  #75
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You certainly picked the wrong person to attack. Gaggag can play, sing and write. As can Katey Perry and Bruno Mars all of which I am completely tired of hearing.
Old 31st May 2011
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thepilgrimsdream View Post
Lol...was that for real??? 
Old 31st May 2011
  #77
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much rather prefer this lady gaga

Old 31st May 2011
  #78
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PMoshay's Avatar
 

I see it from this perspective........

1. You can sit in your chair and complain about how there is so few great artists.

2. You can sieze this opportunity to be a great artist that will have the worlds ears open and ready to hear you.


Opportunity is knocking for those ready work.
Don't worry about what everyone else is doing, worry about what you're doing.
Old 31st May 2011
  #79
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Swami Digital's Avatar
 

Music is entertainment. It's always been part showmanship and part pure aesthetic of the music. Some people prefer pure music without the showmanship, but showmanship does sell and to be both great and popular you have to have both.

I do think it's funny this question is posed on gearslutz. There are plenty of people moaning on other forums about how music has become too much about gear and technology and not enough about songwriting, while the level of gear worship here is practically idolatrous.

Frankly, there's no need to worry about other's process. Why worry about what others listen to or do with their money? As long as you are producing music that fulfills you...
Old 31st May 2011
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solidtube View Post
I'd rather be entertained when I go to a show than admiring how great the musicians were. Norah Jones and her band are great musicians but the show was boring as hell. Michael Jackson might have mimed his singing but his shows were incredibly exciting and entertaining.
Why shouldnt you expect both though ? Norah jones being boring is because you dont like her, not because it was being played live.. You can be authentic and entertaining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
Bruce Willis was shot dozens of times in his movies and shows up at TV interviews without even a scratch and not even one person has called him out on it!
yes but music is not movies.. You can find examples of things that are fake throughout everything but just because you can join the dots doesnt validate them as the same thing. ive seen people buy plastic plants that dont need water but that doesnt have any relevance to music or the examples i made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
What about the blatant fakery on the internets? I've heard that some people don't even use their real names! I wonder what Mr Ebulb thinks about that?
Once again that point has no relationship to music.. My argument isnt about generic fakes through everything that exists in the world, its about how its eroded music. Just because you accept artificial sweetener doesnt mean the concept works across everything else in the world.. otherwise why dont we just let athletes at the olympics take drugs ? its because integrity matters..

To be honest, i dont have a problem with Gaga calling herself Gaga, im not adverse to showmanship but it gets to a point where everything is fabricated and its simply too much. You can dress things up but there comes a point where you loose the fundamental integrity.

but i would like to know from everyone who thinks the fakery is ok, if Lady Gaga didnt show up and someone else mimed for her at the concert do you feel that is still acceptible ? If the actual artist doesnt contribute anything to the sound than what difference would it make ?
Old 31st May 2011
  #81
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
I see it from this perspective........

1. You can sit in your chair and complain about how there is so few great artists.

2. You can sieze this opportunity to be a great artist that will have the worlds ears open and ready to hear you.


Opportunity is knocking for those ready work.
Don't worry about what everyone else is doing, worry about what you're doing.



That's
the answer, right there!


Still...
it's fun to kvetch.
Old 31st May 2011
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neenja View Post
You certainly picked the wrong person to attack. Gaggag can play, sing and write. As can Katey Perry and Bruno Mars all of which I am completely tired of hearing.
My statements werent intended to be a direct attack on Gaga but she was on TV at the time. You could easily substitue a whole bunch of modern pop stars and it would be the exact same message i was trying to make.

But having said that, If someone has talent and can write and sing, why are they on TV miming, to an overproduced song, written by someone else ??. It gets back to my point originally where i said, if someone gave gaga a few mics in a room and told her to come up with the next album do you think the results would appeal to her current fans ?
Old 31st May 2011
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post



That's the answer, right there!


Still... it's fun to kvetch.

i agree.. but i will always be happy to hear and make commentary on culture and social changes especially in music.. at the end of the day im not going to loose any sleep over things i dont agree with. I'll just keep on doing the stuff that appeals to me.
Old 31st May 2011
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ears2thesky View Post
Fakery shmakery.
It's all fake in one way or another.
When you overdub: that's fake.
When you change the dynamics or EQ: that's fake.
When you add some reverb or delay: that's fake.
When you close mic everything: that's fake.
When you replace real sounds with samples: that's fake.
Disco was fake.
Techno is fake.
Hip hop is fake.
Frank Zappa edited live performances with studio overdubs all the time: fakery.
When hasn't top 40 pop NOT been fake? Remember Milli Vanilli?
I couldn't care less how an album is produced as long as it sounds good.

If you can't reproduce the album live: that's sad. I think fake musicianship is my biggest pet peeve. I got the first Mr. Bungle album right when it came out and was impressed by the music and production. I saw them live a couple of months later, and to my amazement they nailed every note and even took things beyond the recording. Blew my mind. Nothing fake about that musicianship.
What he said....
Old 31st May 2011
  #85
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Swami Digital's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebulb View Post
But having said that, If someone has talent and can write and sing, why are they on TV miming, to an overproduced song, written by someone else ??
Because that is what people want, and that is what sells? What you want or do not want doesn't have bearing on whether they have talent or not.

Personally it doesn't appeal to me. I even think studio albums have too much perfection. I'd rather hear a live performance with mistakes left in, but genuine creativity and spontaneous improvisation... but that doesn't mean that I would decry talented people giving the masses what they want.
Old 31st May 2011
  #86
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neenja View Post
You certainly picked the wrong person to attack. Gaggag can play, sing and write. As can Katey Perry and Bruno Mars all of which I am completely tired of hearing.
...So I guess Lady Gaga is kinda like the artistic opposite of GENTLEMAN Gaga (who can play bagpipes -- but doesn't)!

.
Old 31st May 2011
  #87
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post

Bruce Willis was shot dozens of times in his movies and shows up at TV interviews without even a scratch and not even one person has called him out on it!
Upon re-reading, I just realized how poignant this statement really is:

...Now if a Bruce Willis movie wes being purported as some sort of "documentary", I might actually be upset about it.

But the movies Bruce does are clearly marked as FICTION.

...So I really wouldn't mind if -- oh, let's say Gorillaz (a fake act to start with) -- put together something that was totally fictional (even at a "live" event).

The problem I have is when some act is promoted as an actual "musical artist", and I'm handed a total fiction.

In my book, that's a "bad check".

.
Old 31st May 2011
  #88
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i like synth music. I think whatever sounds good is what matters. And its personal. Old men love to complain about "kids these days"
Old 31st May 2011
  #89
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I really don't care what's "fake" or "real" in music. Even great records with great musicians use smoke and mirrors sometimes for creative purposes. I do agree that a lot of records currently rely heavily on what's going on on the "other" side of the glass.

I do agree that the pinnacle of recorded music has come and gone, and I believe it's the state of the industry is the reason, though I concede that their is some very good music around today (not much that is great though)

The best argument for this I have heard is that if you look at the top 100 songs from 1971 (for example) you will see a surprising amount of songs that are still played regularly and instantly recognizable 40 years later.

You will not hear the same amount of music from 2011 played 40 years from now for sure. Heck, even the charts from 10 years ago have very little that has stood up.

I love music from the early scratchy blues recordings, big band era, swing, early rock and jazz, 60's soul and psychadelia, and 70's fusion but I mainly listen to stuff recorded within the last decade. Always looking for the next sound that will move mountains.

Still waiting...
Old 31st May 2011
  #90
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleestack View Post

i like synth music.
So do I.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleestack View Post

I think whatever sounds good is what matters.
I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleestack View Post

And its personal.
Damn right, it is!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleestack View Post

Old men love to complain about "kids these days"
Well, of COURSE we do!

...We old farts may have diminished lung capacity, but we have a lot more time on our hands, and also the benefit of experience, to boot!

...And might I point out that a whole lot of what many folks call "synth music" is full of samples bitten from records made over the last 100 years by folks who are now dead (...and as far as the ability to actually make music, could pretty much mop the floor with these kids!).

...Or otherwise, why the hell would these kids be sampling these old farts' work (instead of actually playing their own damn instruments)?

.
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