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fakery in todays music
Old 29th May 2011
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand View Post
Since when has selling popular music been about authentic performances? Last time I checked it was about selling hit songs.

It's nice and all for performers to be the real thing. I respect and appreciate it. But I don't think for a moment that it's necessary to be the real thing in order to be a star. That's about hits. Hits and authentic performing ability are two very different topics altogether. There is no requirement that a person be both the real thing and a hit maker in order to be rewarded as a star or sell records.

I doubt that most people get into the music business because they want to be respected as true artists. Usually it's money and fame that attracts them, regardless as to whatever they might like for others to believe. That being the case, what should a rational person expect knowing that the game is about selling hits and the players are about making money and getting famous?
This gets down to part of the uncomfortable dynamic on this website.

Many of the people on this site are interested in music.

Many others are interested in selling music.

And, of course, many of us have negotiated a sometimes tortured path between the two.
Old 29th May 2011
  #32
Lives for snowflakes
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

.
I don't mind a bit of "trickery" being used to make a recording...

...Just as I don't mind being payed with a check.


But the problem comes when what has been written is a "BAD check"!
heh
.
Old 29th May 2011
  #33
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Didn't Sinatra sing other people's songs and play with session musicians or did he have a band that provided inputs etc? Just some perspective that what she's doing is not new.


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Old 29th May 2011
  #34
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  • You put 5 talented musicians on one stage playing instruments and singing direct through PA system.
  • Then put on a second stage 3 musicans, a bunch of tracks, pyro, half-naked dancing women & guys.
Who will the masses be attracted to?

Its always been about the audience (the record buyers) and what they want. In this age of 50 million dollar movies and effects that entertain us. It is only natural that the music audience wants to be entertained in like fashion.

I don't like it, but understand it. My hope is that the audience for real unfiltered live music does not die...
Old 29th May 2011
  #35
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Sinatra is all about charts...He had a core band that traveled and supplemented with students, hired guns and so forth. Every note was written down and expected to be played as written.

As for the topic, I agree with the others, Gaga is a bad example. The lady has chops. Really... She just chooses to do **** music.
Her choice.

Fakery has been going on since the 40's... or maybe even before that.
Back then though it was mostly because of the limitations of technology and not the talent of the performers.

TV productions were not set up for big bands to play live etc.

I love it when people look at someone like Brittany Spears and say "well how can she dance and sing at the same time".
I dunno?
Ethel Mermen seems to have done it rather well.
So have many other Broadway performers.

The real problem is today's music is so processed, so homogenized and so awful that it's virtually impossible to perform life.

I doubt I could crap on queue live in front of 5000 guests at a show.
Same goes for today's music.
It's so bad it just can't be performed live.

Take Carol King, James Taylor, The Eagles, Amy Grant, Joan Osborne, Judy Collins, Chicago, EFW, Billy Joel, Elton John, George Michael, Frank Sinatra etc
and put them on your lawn at your daughter's wedding reception and I can assure you they will sound pretty much like they sound on the records.
I've heard most of them in person and can vouch for that.

it's called talent.

Something missing from today's MAINSTREAM music.

The real talent is in the clubs...Indies and so forth.
People that most of us never heard of.

Just my somewhat caustic 2 cents.
Old 30th May 2011
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazman View Post

Didn't Sinatra sing other people's songs and play with session musicians or did he have a band that provided inputs etc?

Just some perspective that what she's doing is not new.
Yep.

,,,But Sinatra was actually capable of SINGING them, and those session musicians were actually capable of PLAYING the parts (all together, live, and without copious amounts of gizmosity to put them in pitch and time).

In other words, I wasn't being handed a "bad check".


As to Lady Gaga, well as talented as she may be, you're right: It's nothing new (which is what bores me to tears about her stuff).

...Still, I can't blame her for not wanting to starve to death just to please ME!
.
Old 30th May 2011
  #37
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The Cure used to mess with Top of the Pops all the time, they would purposely lip sync horribly and would even switch up instruments haha, like the drummer would "play" bass and so on..

check robert smith's guitar playing!!!! HAHAHA

Old 30th May 2011
  #38
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the point i was making initially was that nowdays the fakery is all too common.. I know that back in the 60s there were people who didnt write their own songs and examples of people miming but it wasnt like it is nowdays where every last drop is fabricated through the entire process.. nothing is real anymore its all been touched up and tinkered with and what people are watching/listening to is nothing but smoke and mirrors..

In regards to Lady Gaga, i actually never said i disliked her and i always suspected she had some sort of voice/talent and wasnt just totally a prop like some of them.. But the performance i saw on TV was exactly as i described, if she can sing then why doesnt she sing and play live ? Most of these types of performers also mime their concerts now, where do you draw the line before you could reasonably label it fraud ?

In fact i dont think there's anything left to fake so there's probably no line left to draw.. Short of actually getting someone else who looks like the "artist" to do the miming so they don't even need to show up.. Id be interested to know if those who support the fakery would say the artist not actually turning up qualifies as being unacceptible ? Or is that still ok as long as you mime to their records ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post

Only in the late 60s were some big rock bands able to demand going on live -- and then it was a crap shoot because the studio staff often didn't know how to deal with their set ups in terms of capture.
That is a good point, any miming that happened in the 60s/70s was because of technical hurdles, it wasnt through the bands or singers wanting to try and conceal anything. The reasons are very different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
It's pop music. What do you expect? As soon as I see dancers on stage, I know I'm in trouble. What's THAT all about? Musicians used to be entertaining without them.
You want real?
Try traditional jazz or classical music, it's still hot after 200+ years!
Thats the thing its not really music because nobody plays anything, but the strange thing is not many people will pay to go and watch backing dancers jump around to a CD on their own.. It has to look like someone is actually performing a song..

Quote:
Originally Posted by zapsmith9 View Post
it's quite funny to see the pop music apologists rush in to deny any and all criticisms directed at todays current poptarts. yep, they gotta defend the lamers, posers and no-talent twits. lacking songwriting skill, vocal skill or instrumental skill is now seen as a POSITIVE on the pop music resume (as long as one is marketable, full of attitude, attractive and follows the gatekeeper's orders). and no, it hasn't always been that way. it (fakery) used to be the exception, and now it's the RULE. the top artists of pop music in the past (brian wilson, the beatles, MJ, prince, bowie, hendrix, queen, pink floyd, supertramp, etc.) used to dominate via their 3-pillar SKILLS. now, top pop artists dominate via the ABSENCE of said skills.
Spot on..
Old 30th May 2011
  #39
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Quote:
In fact i dont think there's anything left to fake so there's probably no line left to draw.. Short of actually getting someone else who looks like the "artist" to do the miming so they don't even need to show up.. Id be interested to know if those who support the fakery would say the artist not actually turning up qualifies as being unacceptible ? Or is that still ok as long as you mime to their records
This was done a bunch in the 80's dance music scene - if I recall, they called them 'track acts'. These dance/club music artists would have two or three groups touring around to clubs under the band name, would show up - lip sync 2 or 3 songs and leave.
Old 30th May 2011
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loopy View Post

As for the topic, I agree with the others, Gaga is a bad example. The lady has chops. Really... She just chooses to do **** music.
Her choice.
Lady Gaga was the example purely because she was on the TV at the time i posted, I dont really follow current pop stars but nonetheless it was all as i described.. Whether she has talent or not makes no difference if its all buried.

Im not just criticising people who mime, the point i was making is when you combined the sum of everything together its shocking how little is actually authentic.
Old 30th May 2011
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggator6 View Post
This was done a bunch in the 80's dance music scene - if I recall, they called them 'track acts'. These dance/club music artists would have two or three groups touring around to clubs under the band name, would show up - lip sync 2 or 3 songs and leave.
Ok. so what would happen if Gaga went a bit gaga and didnt show up. If they just dressed someone up as her and held the concert anyway, do you think the audience would then feel ripped off because its not real ?

If fakery is accepted im curious to know how far you can lower the threshold before peoples "bull**** radar" actually kicks in.
Old 30th May 2011
  #42
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since when does entertainment have to be Real?

Movies are not usually.
Television? not often.
Books can or can not be......
Comedy is often just made up.

Nobody ever said you had to pass a musical test to entertain people.
You just have to be entertaining to someone.
Old 30th May 2011
  #43
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
And it's not just the music industry. Movies are crap - just vehicles for special effects.
Did you see "The King's Speech?" Damn good acting. Special effects? Maybe somewhere but that sure wasn't essential to the movie.
Old 30th May 2011
  #44
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebulb View Post

Im not just criticising people who mime, the point i was making is when you combined the sum of everything together its shocking how little is actually authentic.
you know what else is fake?

Professional Wrestling!


A friend of mine still has a voucher from the class-action suit that went against Milli Vanilli. There were fakes in those days, but people back then didn't just sit there and take it, they called their lawyer!

My question is, which is sadder? Not caring enough to file a lawsuit? Or caring so much you file a lawsuit?
Old 30th May 2011
  #45
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take louis and ella.

lady gaga is a different genre of music altogether.

People are attracted to overproduced electronic music these days, but who was really more talented?

Lady Gaga sells her body, not her music.

louis and ella sold real music.

The industry sells a person more than their music today. This destroyed the music industry
Old 30th May 2011
  #46
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jmikeperkins's Avatar
The #1 problem with most of today's music is the lack of decent melody writing. You just get piles of flat and boring songs with 3-4 notes in them, all in a narrow range, no resolution, and maybe 2 chords in the whole song. That's the real problem. There are other problems too, but lack of melody is the big one. I could put up with all sorts of fakery if the songs were better.
Old 30th May 2011
  #47
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PMoshay's Avatar
 

Bruce Willis was shot dozens of times in his movies and shows up at TV interviews without even a scratch and not even one person has called him out on it!

And i was looking into the Harry Potter movies background....... i can't find anything real about it!!!!

I also listened closely to a Led Zeppelin album and heard a rhythm guitar playing under the guitar solo...... and we all know that there is only one guitarist in Led Zeppelin!?!?! He can't solo & play rhythm guitar at the same time!!!!!

We've been DUPED!!!!!.......... i want my entertainment free of any Tom Foolery!
Old 30th May 2011
  #48
Sky
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Sky's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I'd guarantee that mr ebulb wasn't around in the 60s or 70s. Rose tinted vision - there was plenty of cack from back then, it's just not lasted.

Same way there's plenty of good stuff around now that will last, whereas the cack will be here and gone. You think people will listen to Cheryl Cole in 5 years? nope...though we still hear the best pop from 5-10 years ago regularly played on radio, adverts etc.

Old as the hills moan, old as the hills misconception.
Agree. Pop music can be fickle. Sometimes pop sounds like cack and then comes around again. For example, when we were kids hearing this one-hit wonder on the radio in between Beatles and Stones songs we thought "What the heck is that?" Pretty cool in it's own right though, especially in a 1970 context:




Sky
Old 30th May 2011
  #49
js1
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In this so called past that people are talking about, the "fakery" that we're discussing was done primarily by having a better musician play the part, or a good musician taking a bunch of runs at it.

The fakery we're talking about today is to take an unacceptable performance by a non musician, and have another non musician edit it into something that appears musical when looking at it on a computer monitor.

NOT the same.

js
Old 30th May 2011
  #51
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlheinz View Post
Music alone does not sell tickets and t-shirts unless you are established as a no frills artist..People need a show or something to see.A new artist is expected to cater to the demands of the visual generation if they are global and huge.Show/biz!!!...One is expected to be an entertainer.
I'd rather be entertained when I go to a show than admiring how great the musicians were. Norah Jones and her band are great musicians but the show was boring as hell. Michael Jackson might have mimed his singing but his shows were incredibly exciting and entertaining.
Old 30th May 2011
  #52
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solidtube View Post

I'd rather be entertained when I go to a show than admiring how great the musicians were.
This statement is very telling:

This might surprise some folks, but it was not that long ago when great musicianship (in and of itself) WAS considered to be entertaining!

It seems that the importance of the music itself has diminished to the point where it is little more than a condiment, sprinkled on the main (visual) course.

...And heaven help you if the plate you're serving up has too much spinach and not enough candy for the "Average Joe"!

I wonder if audio-only releases would even exist AT ALL today if it weren't for the automobile: Its one of the last places left on earth where a person (the driver, at least) doesn't have the (sane) option of watching the visual "bling".

.
Old 30th May 2011
  #53
Registered User
What about the blatant fakery on the internets? I've heard that some people don't even use their real names! I wonder what Mr Ebulb thinks about that?
Old 30th May 2011
  #54
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Lrmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
What about the blatant fakery on the internets? I've heard that some people don't even use their real names! I wonder what Mr Ebulb thinks about that?


Um, maybe you should think before you make such baseless claims -- I'll have you know my legal first name is "Lrmusic."
Old 30th May 2011
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lrmusic View Post
... I'll have you know ...
Here we go with the birth certificates, again...
Old 30th May 2011
  #56
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric2sax View Post
  • Then put on a second stage 3 musicans, a bunch of tracks, pyro, half-naked dancing women & guys.

What about me?

Old 30th May 2011
  #57
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Two words : vocals & synthesisers (and I'm not talking about vocoders).
Music now is just vocals over a synthesised backing track.
Old 30th May 2011
  #58
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Faking it has been around forever however it sure seems like now there is a much larger overall percentage of it. Technology has made it so much easier to fake stuff and instead of a few people doing it, now the few controlling players mass produce it and shove it down our throats. The good news is that you don't have to financially support it, it's a choice. If you have children you can educate them about it so they don't waste their time and money with it and buy into all the surounding marketing hype (it's called parenting folks, don't be a pussy just do your job, be best buds with your kids after they are 21). There are plenty of real acts to support for every generation (you don't have to like it yourself). Manufactured music crap runs in cycles, right now it's up, down the road it will fade some into the background just like it has done so before, but it will always be there unfortunately. We actually have a pretty high tolerance for fake goods. Just look at all the plastic in your life. Right now your a probably sitting at a desk with a plastic fake wood covering in a house with plastic fake wood siding. There are master woodworkers shaking their heads over that fact just as we engineers shake our heads over the fake music.
Old 30th May 2011
  #59
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cavern's Avatar
 

On the path of no return
Fakery of music
Fakery of the world
Faster less we remember
Faster yet we forget
Old 30th May 2011
  #60
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Why don't cows vote?

If you think about that question long and hard, you'll figure out why people like pop music.
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