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Hedd or Fatso Which one first?
Old 4th August 2003
  #1
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Hedd or Fatso Which one first?

Which unit would make the most impact on an overall mix. Currently, I'm using the converters in my D8B. I'm thinking the Fatso would be used on kik/snr and vocals...maybe ovrs. The Heed could be used on all over dub. Would their be a phase issue using the Hedd on ovrs and the rest of the drums through the D8B coverters? Thanks
Tim
Old 4th August 2003
  #2
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lucey's Avatar
2 different animals... get em both eventually.

The HEDD could be the master clock as well as a good AD, which would help the tone a bunch. I'd go very easy on the A/D FX and use the FX more at mixing but that's just me.

The FATSO is a good warming tool for good sounding digital, but why bother if your clock sucks.

What's your master clock?
Old 4th August 2003
  #3
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The HEDD really improves the sound of the d8b. Really. I use nothing but Crane song converters going into and out of my d8b. Spider & HEDD going in, and HEDD going out. I do use a Lucid D/A for monitoring, however (at least until Nathan & I finish our Lucid, Mytek, Benchmark D/A shootout...).

Scott
Old 4th August 2003
  #4
"Which unit would make the most impact on an overall mix."

Hmmmm kind of a trick question,

IMHO - if you record everything via a Fatso, you will have less trouble mixing it all!

But the Tape & Pentode process cheer up mixes no end...

Old 4th August 2003
  #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
[B
IMHO - if you record everything via a Fatso, you will have less trouble mixing it all!

[/B]
god damn...i think i need to rob dave derr....or a bank or something....
Old 4th August 2003
  #6
Both are great units. But without great A/D and D/A(especially for monitoring), it's futile to expect truly great results out of your gear. In addition clocking all of your digital gear off the the Crane Song HEDD will yield improvements as well. Harmonic distortion should be secondary to fidelity IMO. Without a high quality path (mics, preamps, A/D/A) as the main portion of the sonics, all you are doing is putting sugary icing on a turd (and who wants to eat that?).
Old 4th August 2003
  #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by NathanEldred
all you are doing is putting sugary icing on a turd (and who wants to eat that?).
after a few blunts i'll eat anything...
Old 5th August 2003
  #8
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What percent improvement do you guys think I will get going into the hedd into the masterlink as opposed to using the converters in the masterlink...plus the tape sim stuff....
Old 5th August 2003
  #9
Quote:
Originally posted by TML
What percent improvement do you guys think I will get going into the hedd into the masterlink as opposed to using the converters in the masterlink...plus the tape sim stuff....
It's very difficult to quantify that kind of thing, but basically there isn't much of a contest. It's just something you know when you hear it. There will be more depth, more realism, it won't collapse your mix or hype the highs like the ADC's on the Masterlink (who's converters kind of suck really compared to a pro unit). Don't forget about all or any of the overdubbs also used with the HEDD. It saves raunchy electric guitars to digital, and great converters help the whole mix gel a lot better and saves headaches during mixdown.
Old 5th August 2003
  #10
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lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by TML
What percent improvement do you guys think I will get going into the hedd into the masterlink as opposed to using the converters in the masterlink...plus the tape sim stuff....
Are you saying you come out of the d8b and do something analog on the way to the Masterlink?

Or do you just mix digi to digi?
Old 5th August 2003
  #11
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I'm coming out of the d8b into a pair of daking eq's then into an ssl compressor then to a masterlink.
Old 5th August 2003
  #12
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DigitMus-
What do you need to use the hedd with the d8b....Just use spdif into the mackie and out?Thanks
Old 5th August 2003
  #13
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No, I don't use S/PDIF inputs on the d8b; they reclock the signal & crop it down to 20 bits. My main front end is the Crane Song Spider, and I'll occasionally use the HEDD when the Spider's been pulled out for location work. I use a PDI-8 card in the Alt I/O slot and connect whichever converters I'm using via a Z-Sys AES router (saves me from having to re-patch, since I also use the AltI/O for AES sends/returns to effects when mixing).
My primary use for the HEDD is either as A-D & D-A to analog gear for processing/re-amping or for similar duties when printing a mix. It goes like this at final mixdown (to Masterlink):
d8b AES (main) out -> Z-Sys Q2 digital equalizer -> AES in of HEDD, analog out of HEDD to pair of Trakker compressors, back to analog in of HEDD (set to 44.1, dithered to 16bits, tape & tube controls set to taste), AES out -> Masterlink.
I hope you can follow that - it's a little confusing until you realize the HEDD can act as multiple things simultaneously - an A->D converter, a D->A converter and an analog tape & tube simulator. And it does all of them REALLY well...

Scott
Old 5th August 2003
  #14
Quote:
Originally posted by TML
I'm coming out of the d8b into a pair of daking eq's then into an ssl compressor then to a masterlink.
You'll benefit tremendously from the Hedd's converters.

I personally would go out of the Hedd's D/A to the Dakings and SSL comp, than back into the Hedd unit A/D going AES(88.2 or 96K dependant on muisc style) into the Masterlink.

That is sorta the way I do it now when mixing to the Masterlink.
Old 5th August 2003
  #15
I use a Hedd / Masterlink combo too..

Cept my mix is analog (imagine post any analog compressor) - so I capture it at 24 bit 96k

I would urge you guys to try that....

I then SRC (Sample rate convert) that down to 24 bit 44.1 for mastering in my PT Mix + rig .. (I use a Finalizer 96k with the 'up down' upgrade..)

I f I had PT HD, I would try 96k mastering sessions...

The Hedd at 96k is stunning, & the process sounds get better too...

Old 5th August 2003
  #16
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lucey's Avatar
Just to be objective ... keep in mind that the DA on the HEDD is not as good as the DAC1.

So this chain is nice if you're not having it mastered professionally:
HEDD D/A
EQ
BUSS COMP
HEDD A/D w.FX



Yet I don't add the HEDD 192 FX until final mastering, and I prefer to avoid the sound of reduction, especially when adding the FX.

So if you were sending it to one of us HEDD mastering guys you could get a DAC 1, FATSO and the new A/D from Benchmark and keep it cleaner, leaving room for mastering to work for you.

DAC1
EQ
SSL or FATSO
ADC


This would allow your tracking to be:
EQ
FATSO
ADC

Which would be very nice indeed.

The HEDD A/D is a bit 'forward' and a robust compared to the source. For tracking I find this great on guitars and bass yet not as spacious on drums/overheads and acoustic guitars as I'd like. Just my taste.

You're not going to go wrong with a HEDD192 and everyone should have one! Yet it's not the only answer. I find it indespensible yet sometimes I also want a softer, more spacious AD both for tracking and for program mastering, especially when I come off of 1/2" tape.

The Benchmark DAC1 is great and the AD is worth a look if the AD is as nice.



Hey there's just too much great gear!
Old 5th August 2003
  #17
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Spoke to Dave Hill yesterday. He brought up the Spider as well. Don't think I want to get locked into 8 pre's and the Cransong converters just yet. Already have enough pre's. So many choices. I have a very important project thats needs to be done in a couple of weeks. It's all mixed. What unit would help improve the mixes the most..........a DAC1 and a Fatso..or a Hedd. My mastering engineer said that the hedd will improve the depth and soundfield about 10 to 15%. He also wrote one of the reviews on the unit. Thanks
Tim
Old 5th August 2003
  #18
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lucey's Avatar
Well if it's all tracked and mixed ... "what would help most" ... for around $3k.....




mmm




.....







I suggest Mastering ... The mix through a DAC1 to a transformer (or tranny-less) ATR102 1/2" tape ... followed by an STC-8 for compresssion, maybe some eq if needed, and a HEDD192 A/D with FX as needed straight to 16 bits. Burned to Taiyo Gold CDR. Usually for $750 a record or less, in 4-5 days

Sorry all .. it was my only answer!







okay Jules ... throw me out
Old 5th August 2003
  #19
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lucey's Avatar
p.s. Your mastering engineer should do the HEDD ... the FX are best left to the end of the chain when mastering is involved, and if he has a HEDD you don't need one.
Old 5th August 2003
  #20
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Brian-
My mastering guys said that I should go into the masterlink digital through the hedd from the d8b. He said both the converters and the clock in the unit will improve the sound over my apogee clock card in the d8b and the coverters in masterlink. He was telling me to leave my eq and ssl out and let him give the mix a shot. Or maybe I should save up for radar and screw it all...no plugin's..no antares......OK all you bands...new rules...you have to be able to play, sing and write tunes.......no that will never happen.
Tim
Old 5th August 2003
  #21
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lucey's Avatar
mmm ... this is getting interesting.


The digital sound of your chain is mostly in the A/D and in the summing. How much can be gained by the HEDD clock overseeing a D to D pass? I'm gonna guess that very little or nothing can be gained, but I've never tried that one. If your cables are okay you should simply be transfering the mix to the Masterlink.

Now if you reclock the d8b during summing you might get some benefit, but is it worth $3000? Don't know.

Yes ... the effects will help the sound, yet I'd wait for them until Mastering.

Maybe your wallet is in luck! Your accountant will love you. Buy nothing and just wait on the whole purchase until you're more sure. As for now, if it's going to mastering and he has a HEDD 192 and other good tools ... you're done.
Old 5th August 2003
  #22
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Brian-
I'm also in pre-production for 4 full length pop punk/emo records and I don't want to go to tape....budgets are small...Indie labels.....and the playing can be interesting to say the least...too much tape comping...too much time...it's so nice to tell the kids....you need to punch in the band here at this stop....ready....and were done.........wanted something that will help my current cd project and something I can't use to improve the next 4 records. Initially I was thinking a fatso would help....Then I was told to try the Hedd...better coverters across a 32 track mix...the clock...and I could use it on the 2 bus........more applications than a fatso for the time being...........I hear yah on the dough factor.......Just starting doing projects all digital and its really hard to place certain things in the mix that should sound creamy and rich..............HELP! Me....I'm in SLUT hell!
Tim
Old 5th August 2003
  #23
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lucey's Avatar
get the FATSO and a DAC1 right now to fatten up the 4 projects and to hear what you really have. Then mix them in the box ... and send them at the kids expense to ... uuh ... an inexpensive, high quality mastering house with a HEDD192 that will give you a sample cut for free to review and make comments on each project.

then take the dough from the 4 gigs and get a HEDD for future projects.

color over quality for that music ... and leave the overall quality improvement for mastering. but you get a HEDD asap.
Old 5th August 2003
  #24
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Thanks for you input Brian. Whats the dac 1...a 2 channel adda?
Old 5th August 2003
  #25
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lucey's Avatar
The DAC1 is a 2 channel Digital to Analog converter .. and it's really amazing.

Jitter killling, re-clocking scheme. So you hear what's really there.

www.benchmarkmedia.com
Old 5th August 2003
  #26
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Thanks for the link. So the unit will allow me to hear the output off my masterlink and PT...thus making better mixing decisions. is that the jist of the box.
Old 5th August 2003
  #27
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lucey's Avatar
ya
Old 5th August 2003
  #28
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Brian-
Logic would be that if your listening to a cd..mastered...major label..etc...the sound coming from your monitors should be the same type of tone you should be able to achieve...or not..with your gear. Does the DAC 1 let you hear things better...and make those decisions so that when the product comes back from the mastering house..it better represents what a major label cd should be. In other words...I'm not hearing the true final product for comparison to other cd's until it comes back from a mastering house with great D to A and dithering.......to get closer to reality..the DAC 1 fills in the gap. I have located both the fatso and DAC 1 at a dealer nearby and probably will take a couple hr's drive to check them out. I'm I totally gone?
TIm
Old 5th August 2003
  #29
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jazzius's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by TML
[B]Brian-
Logic would be that if your listening to a cd..mastered...major label..etc...the sound coming from your monitors should be the same type of tone you should be able to achieve..
yeah, providing you also have the same gear/experience as the talent behind the major label release......but maybe they had better monitoring then you have! (can you clearly hear what's happening between 35-70 hz for instance?)

Quote:
Does the DAC 1 let you hear things better...and make those decisions so that when the product comes back from the mastering house.it better represents what a major label cd should be.
The theory is that the more transparently you hear something, the better placed you are to put in the right kind/ammount of distortion! (be this compression, EQ, limiting, tape, Fatso, Hedd or whatever

Quote:
it better represents what a major label cd should be.
I wouldn't worry about this one....a lot of major label stuff sounds like ass.....

cheers
Old 5th August 2003
  #30
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
The DAC1 cleans up the digital so you hear what's really there, as opposed to the low mid fuzz or high smear of most DA. If you mix digitally, knowing what you have certainly helps. After monitors the DA is tops.



Agreed ... "Major label mastering" is not the mark, sad to say. Great mastering is the mark.




Ultimately you have to decide, but I'd get the DAC1 for sure. Then the HEDD or the FATSO is your call. Given the material you described, I'd do FAT, then HEDD. Get the FATSO and hear it ... decide then.



Either way .... great things await. So much great gear ... so little time is the name of the forum!
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