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Waves permanently lowers prices? Dynamics Plugins
Old 4th January 2011
  #121
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I hope waves goes belly up...freakn ****** bags. Sorry guys, I had to get that out. carry on heh
Old 4th January 2011
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lagavulin16 View Post
I looked into buying Waves stuff at one point. My conclusion is that with WUP, and if you ever plan on selling them, the only one that makes sense to buy is the Mercury or Diamond bundles.

None of the other ones make sense from a cost and expense perspective... obviously if you can bill out the usage of them and make money off of them YMMV, but I have plenty of plugins I own that do the job for me just fine.
Due to the license transfer fees, when buying a bundle it can be a good plan to put them on a second iLok and use a hub.

Means when selling up you don't have to pay a transfer fee you just sell the iLok.
Old 4th January 2011
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superburtm View Post
I hope waves goes belly up...freakn ****** bags. Sorry guys, I had to get that out. carry on heh
What did they do? Make some plug-ins you can't afford and you wonder why?

Oh just the usual then.
Old 4th January 2011
  #124
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superburtm's Avatar
 

no... I can a fford it just fine thank you and I actually owned a waves bundle since '99. What they did to me was unspeakable. HORRIBLE business.


Quote:
Originally Posted by therealbigd View Post
What did they do? Make some plug-ins you can't afford and you wonder why?

Oh just the usual then.
Old 4th January 2011
  #125
At least Waves respond to customer enquiry.

I have been trying to get DUY to transfer a collection I bought off a fellow GS for over a month.
Eventually gave up and he was kind enough to send me the iLok.
Of course I can't upgrade them and don't really own them as the iLok is still in his name.
I will never buy another DUY plugin and will actively hate on them.
fuuck DUY.
Old 4th January 2011
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superburtm View Post
no... I can a fford it just fine thank you and I actually owned a waves bundle since '99. What they did to me was unspeakable. HORRIBLE business.
care to share or are you just leaving everyone in the dark with your ranting?
Old 4th January 2011
  #127
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superburtm's Avatar
 

sorry I am not "allowed" to


Quote:
Originally Posted by therealbigd View Post
care to share or are you just leaving everyone in the dark with your ranting?
Old 4th January 2011
  #128
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duvalle's Avatar
 

imho waves makes some great plug ins.
the update to vst3 is very nice for all cubase users …

i agree that the best value is the mercury bundle.
but you get a lot of plugs, you probably don't need.

so having the chance to only buy what you need now is great.
only thing missing is a "personal bundle" like buy 10 plugs and get 20% discount.

that said, they should drop the ilok and make it a serial protection again.
or at least offer serial as an alternative. doesn't make sense to me to get all the ilok stuff for only 1 or 2 plugs, no?
Old 4th January 2011
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superburtm View Post
sorry I am not "allowed" to
I call BS.

Unless Waves have a court injunction against you, of course you can, leave names out if you feel better.

If you won't, I assume you're not saying because it's a problem at your end not at theirs. If they have got a court injunction then it's your fault and the court agrees.
Old 4th January 2011
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duvalle View Post
imho waves makes some great plug ins.
the update to vst3 is very nice for all cubase users …

i agree that the best value is the mercury bundle.
but you get a lot of plugs, you probably don't need.

so having the chance to only buy what you need now is great.
only thing missing is a "personal bundle" like buy 10 plugs and get 20% discount.

that said, they should drop the ilok and make it a serial protection again.
or at least offer serial as an alternative. doesn't make sense to me to get all the ilok stuff for only 1 or 2 plugs, no?
Agreed, I bought lots of bundles but none of the 'metal' packages (metal as in Gold / Mercury etc, not as in screaming people) because I just don't need them, most of them are little better than the ones that come included with the DAW.

The upside of buying something like Mercury is that as Waves make new plugins you get them free - it's 'buy once, plugins for life'. I just couldn't face spending that much money, especially on a productI didn't want 3/4 of!
Old 4th January 2011
  #131
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haha. Ok ....you said it, not me.

Waves is getting their due karma.
If you mistreat your customers long enough, you end up with none.

Quote:
Originally Posted by therealbigd View Post
I call BS.

Unless Waves have a court injunction against you, of course you can, leave names out if you feel better.

If you won't, I assume you're not saying because it's a problem at your end not at theirs. If they have got a court injunction then it's your fault and the court agrees.
Old 4th January 2011
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lagavulin16 View Post
I looked into buying Waves stuff at one point. My conclusion is that with WUP, and if you ever plan on selling them, the only one that makes sense to buy is the Mercury or Diamond bundles.

None of the other ones make sense from a cost and expense perspective... obviously if you can bill out the usage of them and make money off of them YMMV, but I have plenty of plugins I own that do the job for me just fine.
wow! Finally someone understands my simple calculation with the API bundle and sees the main point! Yes, you are right, only those bundles make sense, and not their small items, making the calculation over a long period of time.
Old 4th January 2011
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
You clearly don't understand software development. And if you think that the complexity of the development of most of the audio hardware that sells around here for multiple thousands of dollars in anywhere close to the complexity that Waves deals with with that breadth of product on multiple platforms, you definitely don't understand software development. It's staggering how complex these types of large code bases can become. I know this also from personal experience.
You call a plugin large code? Are you kidding me? Large code is application software, not a compressor plugin. There is the VST/AU standard and if you are am experienced programmer you will be able to write "reasonable code" fullfilling specs. Bad programmers are enough out there, I know.
Old 4th January 2011
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
Does Stillwell have people doing in-depth analysis of lots of vintage hardware for emulation purposes?
neither does Waves. Otherwise their SSL4000 compressor wouldn't cause so much aliasing. I am working in the hardware/signal processing field. From my observation, a lot of these developments are a sort of constant failure. A compressor is no more than an AGC. In my field (communications), an AGC is just one element in a system of much more complex blocks. And measuring impulse responses, well, it's not a date to reserve a street for a hollywood movie, don't you agree? You can do it even yourself, with today's freeware. Even at night.

To put some salt in the discussion:

the best way to make a plugin is to adapt some existing algos, add a new GUI, write some famous name on it and sell it for a high price. I know some sellers don't like what I am writing, I can understand.
Old 4th January 2011
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superburtm View Post
haha. Ok ....you said it, not me.
I still think you're just whinging.

Quote:
Waves is getting their due karma.
If you mistreat your customers long enough, you end up with none.
The music industry is a harsh and vicious place. I don't know why members of the production industries think they're an exception.

If you want the best, you pay for the best, you take seemingly expensive upgrade paths and customer policies. But in return, you get the best, you get the support, you get the quality. If that's not your thing, there's PLENTY of cheaper, simpler and equally usable options - take Nomad Factory for example, a huge range of plugs covering everything Waves do, just cheaper, simpler, and don't sound quite as good. But the customer support doesn't follow, and you can't admit to owning some of the world's best plug-ins.

They're not alone in that though. Some of the policies of Apple, Fender, Electrovoice, Avid, etc; are also bad and unhelpful. But the fact remains that those companies are industry leaders, and will always have the audience who put quality before worrying about cost, customer policies and all that jazz.

Waves isn't compulsory buying. It's optional. If you like them enough to live with the things about the company you don't like, buy it. If the balance isn't acceptable, don't buy it. But they're not the only company in the world with controversial policies and like I said, the music industry is a harsh place and the production industries do not have a right of free passage around that.
Old 4th January 2011
  #136
Old 4th January 2011
  #137
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Steab's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by superburtm View Post
Waves is getting their due karma.
If you mistreat your customers long enough, you end up with none.
Bingo. They're obviously not to their 0 point yet, but that law works.
Old 4th January 2011
  #138
Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
You call a plugin large code? Are you kidding me? Large code is application software, not a compressor plugin. There is the VST/AU standard and if you are am experienced programmer you will be able to write "reasonable code" fullfilling specs. Bad programmers are enough out there, I know.
Do you have any idea how many plugins they have? Just the amount of user interface code (which is a serious pain in a multi-platform world) would qualify them as being fairly large scale development, leaving aside all of the work behind the scenes to support the algorithms in multiple platforms.

I've written more code than 99% of the individual developers on the planet, so I'm in a fair position to evaluate the level of effort required. They have a huge range of plugs that cover a lot of problem domains, and which require a lot of R&D, and a lot of just plain grunt work coding and testing.
Old 4th January 2011
  #139
Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
the best way to make a plugin is to adapt some existing algos, add a new GUI, write some famous name on it and sell it for a high price. I know some sellers don't like what I am writing, I can understand.
The best way to make yourself look like a fool is to make a bunch of vague accusations that you have zero proof of, and to continue to demonstrate that you don't know what you are talking about wrt to software development, because you are so anti- something that you don't care if you actually have a case or not.

Quote:
And measuring impulse responses, well, it's not a date to reserve a street for a hollywood movie, don't you agree? You can do it even yourself, with today's freeware. Even at night
Yeh, I can just walk up to a famous studio and tell them to leave for a day while I set up all my equipment and take measurements of their studio, or a well known cathedral or opera house. I do that all the time.
Old 4th January 2011
  #140
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
Do you have any idea how many plugins they have? Just the amount of user interface code (which is a serious pain in a multi-platform world) would qualify them as being fairly large scale development, leaving aside all of the work behind the scenes to support the algorithms in multiple platforms.

I've written more code than 99% of the individual developers on the planet, so I'm in a fair position to evaluate the level of effort required. They have a huge range of plugs that cover a lot of problem domains, and which require a lot of R&D, and a lot of just plain grunt work coding and testing.
it's funny to read that from an experienced person.

I don't care how many plugins they have as long as the number of plugins scales reasonable with the number of involved programmers. That is their own decision. I take ONE plugin and think about how difficult it is to make it work or port it, because I as a user might own only this plugin. So I think about how much effort it is and how much I would pay for it.

Also don't forget that many general subroutines can be reused. In this sense, offering more plugins made by more programmers, the efford per plugin even decreases because of the synergy effect. And if I pay WUP I don't pay it for ALL plugins (except the bundle), but only for those I own. So no point in arguing about quantity anyway. If some company offers too many products with a team too small, it's their problem. I would be willing to pay 30$ wup for a API bundle, but not 150$, not 30% of the price of so, since this price is not a bargain.

It sounds like you want to whine about the burden of software development.
Old 4th January 2011
  #141
Whatever. I can see that this is going to be a waste of time. If you think that maintaining large amounts of shared code across multiple platforms isn't incredibly complex over time, then you don't have a clue and probably aren't going to get one and you'll continue to come up with rationalizations to hate what you want to hate. So knock yourself out.
Old 4th January 2011
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
Whatever. I can see that this is going to be a waste of time. If you think that maintaining large amounts of shared code across multiple platforms isn't incredibly complex over time, then you don't have a clue and probably aren't going to get one and you'll continue to come up with rationalizations to hate what you want to hate. So knock yourself out.
Your main statement is "you don't have a clue".

Apart from that I hardly read any reasonable argument. I just said that complexity is a question of team size etc. and that you cannot view it this way. You ignore my arguments, good for you. In the end what matters is if the product is attractive from customers viewpoint of not. I do not donate money just like that, only to charity.
Old 5th January 2011
  #143
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by markham View Post
...there are lots and lots of us who do need what 64-bit offers, and we need it as soon as possible.
What you don't need is lots and lots of bugs. I'm sure that every developer in the industry is working just as fast as they can to create a stable 64 bit version of their products that won't orphan their users' valuable ongoing projects that were started using earlier versions.
Old 5th January 2011
  #144
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duvalle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
They have a huge range of plugs that cover a lot of problem domains, and which require a lot of R&D, and a lot of just plain grunt work coding and testing.
little ot, but you seem to be an expierenced programmer - so just out of interest:
don't they use some sort of a framework that holds all plug ins? i thought they would "only" have to drop the algos and the gui for the plugs into that framework and if something doesn't work on a platform because of an OS change they don't have to work it out on every single plug in but make a change in the framework?
i do some php coding, so i was thinking of something like a object-oriented PHP 5 class library ... no?
Old 5th January 2011
  #145
Quote:
Originally Posted by duvalle View Post
little ot, but you seem to be an expierenced programmer - so just out of interest:
don't they use some sort of a framework that holds all plug ins? i thought they would "only" have to drop the algos and the gui for the plugs into that framework and if something doesn't work on a platform because of an OS change they don't have to work it out on every single plug in but make a change in the framework?
i do some php coding, so i was thinking of something like a object-oriented PHP 5 class library ... no?
It would be a lot more complicated than that in reality. I'm sure that they've spent a lot of time over the years continuing to re-factor their code and avoid as much replication as possible. And yes, in those cases where there is a change in that common code, it would only (in theory at least) have to be made once.

But, as anyone who has developed a lot of cross platform code knows, it comes at a high cost. There is a strong tension between wanting to factor as much code as possible into common libraries and the complexities of the fact that each OS/DAW has different requirements. And between the desire to separate per-platform/DAW code so that there are as few chances for changes in one breaking changes in the other, and having as little per-platform code as possible.

It's all a tradeoff and getting it right is an ongoing process that eats up a lot of brain cycles and time (which equals money), and of course at any point something can change in the environment that you didn't forsee, and no amount of abstraction will save you from a a painful restructuring. In fact sometimes the actual work you did to carefully abstract things and limit the exposure of data is what causes the need to restructure because now something that you carefully protected needs to become visible to other code in a way that really is sub-optimal based on your current design.

There's also going to be significant complexity caused by the fact that you will likely have two different sets of people working algorithms vs. working on interface, and probably different people who are experts on different development platforms. And different implementations of all of the algorithms for native vs. DSP based systems. All that has to be coordinated and it's herding people that creates the most complexity in large software endeavors. It's always a tradeoff between more people, which means more capacity to achieve things, and the fact that each new person increases the complexity non-linearly.

And of course the more common code you build up, the slower your response comes because any changes in that common code can have huge ramifications that aren't easy to foresee, and you can't just make quick changes because everyone is affected and they are also currently working, and possibly moving forward based on the existing common framework while you are changing it. The other options is lots of replications, but more autonomy in each group. So again, a tradeoff that's always difficult to balance and which eats up resources to manage and improve over time.
Old 5th January 2011
  #146
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duvalle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
It would be a lot more complicated than that in reality.
thx for the details dean!
Old 5th January 2011
  #147
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Quote:
I don't have to upgrade to from 5 to Komplete 7. I can wait for Komplete 9, still can purchase the update and will have many many more features, a doubled library etc.

Soundtoys extend their palette with their updates. Waves does not!
You can skip versions with Waves as well...and they have "extended their palette" with most of their bundles over the years.

Quote:
It may be good for really professional custumers, relying on ensurance etc. but not for semi-professional. And Ilok offers insurance themself.
The "insurance" that iLok offers is nothing like what Waves offers, and is not really insurance...it just gived you temporary licenses while you work out getting replacement licenses if something goes wrong with your iLok. If it breaks you should be fine as they should be able to retrieve those licenses for you, but if it's lost or stolen you're pretty much out of luck...it's up to the individual software manufacturers to replace those licenses for you, and most will not. With Waves's coverage if your iLok is lost or stolen you do get a replacement license.

Quote:
I am willing to pay a reasonable initial price, and this should include any future update just to make it work on the next generation DAW software and OS if no additional functionality is incorporated. The company has to develop a newer version for the new OS anyway, because it wants to sell the plugin to the next customer. BUT I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.
Why shouldn't you have to pay for it?

Most companies...Waves included...do include a grace period where you get updates like that at no charge, but most do charge for them eventually. And I'm not sure why they "shouldn't".
Old 5th January 2011
  #148
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audiogeek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duardo View Post
...

Most companies...Waves included...do include a grace period where you get updates like that at no charge, but most do charge for them eventually. ...
Yup Waves gives you a full year, which is more than some other companies!
Old 5th January 2011
  #149
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turtlejon's Avatar
 

i disagree with that leat post, too. waves is the only developer i use the products of that does not just keep free incremental upgrades going forever. every few months i get an email from izotope, or stillwell, or breverb, or... whomever, telling me there is a new free update waiting...
when everything started switching to intel, the only plugs that didn't just work on machine were waves... everyone else gave me the free upgrade to work with the new system. waves charged me 120$ on a 350$ bundle. when i upgraded to 10.6. everything works, except waves... same deal...
when a plug is discontinued, and a new one with a significant improvement comes along, every other mfgr that i have dealt with so far gives al least a deal on the new one, nothing from waves.
i believe that a genuinely fair policy would be to charge everyone the same amount. but, once again, those spending big$ get a much cheaper price per plug than i do.... i guess i should just get used to it.... this is amerika...
Old 5th January 2011
  #150
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Quantum7's Avatar
I've often been tempted to buy Mercury, but c'mon-2011 and still no 64-bit plug-ins? I won't invest in a company that lags in the past.
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