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Waves permanently lowers prices? Dynamics Plugins
Old 3rd January 2011
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont View Post
Yes, Waves has permanently lowered prices on all of their bundles... pretty dramatically, too... effective Jan 1st.

They also have allowed for purchasing of individual plugins.. Like the SSL E channel for instance, etc. Although, it's still a better buy to purchase the bundle.
so you can potentially buy just the API 2500 now? or just the 550b?
Old 3rd January 2011
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I've had waves for the better part of 10 years. I've wupped twice in that time, neither time for the full $200.

Tell me, how do you think other companies pay for tech support or development costs? 'Cos it doesn't come for free....the customer pays for it in the end.

I also don't really see why how your mentality works should affect how we pay for software! the fact that you don't really understand, or see software as different from hardware (and hence the same rules of ownership don't really apply).

Logic 8 to 9 requires no update to waves - if it runs under 8, it'll run under 9. There's no such thing as a "free" update, the only thing that changes is how it's charged for. If you can't get your head around that concept, I suggest doing some background reading on economics.
I am willing to pay a reasonable initial price, and this should include any future update just to make it work on the next generation DAW software and OS if no additional functionality is incorporated. The company has to develop a newer version for the new OS anyway, because it wants to sell the plugin to the next customer. BUT I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PAY FOR IT. So this efford has to be done anyway. There is nothing to deeply understand here. If the company drops the plugin, then it should include a reasonable upgrade price for previous owners to a new plugin filling the gap. That is a user friendly policy.

BTW I don't like UAD either, especially their "second hand" policy: Sell everything or nothing. From a certain version on, I experience drop outs under Cubase and UAD1. So no newer UAD version for me.

If Waves think their plugins would cost otherwise double as much, ok, then it's perhaps understandable. Neither I or you know how much money they make. I would not buy a Flux alchemist for 600$-900$.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #93
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Waves or BMW?

cleanup
Old 3rd January 2011
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escape View Post
People who complain about charges for updates don´t understand the nature of the buisiness.
If you buy into the company BMW, by purchasing a 5 series model and a few years later BMW releases a newer version of that model, is there anyone who expects to get that for free, just because you bought the old one?

I know many people who have problems dealing rationally with immaterial goods.
They´re mostly amateurs.
Sure. I explain you the nature of business, how I see it. Make high quality attractive products, keep with development or die.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #95
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cleanup
Old 3rd January 2011
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escape View Post
Hey Homeproducer, I did´nt adress this to you specifically,
but answer me this: Would you expect to get the new BMW 5series for free?
of course not, because it is a different product, not the same just ported on a new OS.
Old 4th January 2011
  #97
Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
of course not, because it is a different product, not the same just ported on a new OS.
If you think that products of this sort don't take considerable effort to port to a new OS, or a very different form of the same OS which has been going on with Apple for a while for instance, then you are quite wrong. There is significant engineering effort to keep this broad a set of plugins running on a range of OSes, within a range of DAWs. An upgrade charge is often quite justified, and in some cases probably doesn't really at all cover the actual costs of the work.
Old 4th January 2011
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywoods View Post
I saw this comin when they announced Universal Audio was going RTAS.
huh? UA plugins are not going native rtas. You just no longer have to use the rtas-vst wrapper with your uad2 card. You can connect your UAD2 card to PT direct thru rtas now.
Old 4th January 2011
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
If you rely on fast tech support, that's ok for you. I don't need it. If the products would be very cheap, then I would understand what you wrote "build into the cost of the original purchase".

Just make a simple calculation: You are using their stuff for 10 years (why not?). You are doing 3 DAW updates in that time. Now calculate the total cost. It's simply not my mentality to pay for software as if I had purchased a couple of tube devices where I have to change tubes every three years.
And not for the original price. It's the same as buying or renting. Renting is more expensive over a long period.
You don't understand WUP do you? I suggest you go and READ it before MOANING about it.

If you don't need fast tech support, don't pay for it. There's no obligation to buy WUP.

If you only make 3 DAW updates, you only need to pay for WUP when you do those updates. You don't have to subscribe for the whole 10 years.

This is good value for money, not bad. It means that those who never update their systems (like people still running PT6.4 on an OS9 G4) don't have to pay the same fees as those who buy a new computer every year. Now, where would it be fair for those (non-changing) users to subsidise the support of those (fast changing) users?

I see WUP as something you would pay for and can opt-out of, not something that you shouldn't pay for and have to.

Also worth noting, it's not just there for updates. And new plugins that are added to a bundle are downloadable free. So if you buy the SSL pack and have WUP, and then they make an J9000 emulation, you get that FREE! And no, you don't to buy WUP every year til they release it, you simply wait for it's release, and buy WUP for 1 year when you want it (and get all the other updates too).

Can people please familiarise themselves with how WUP works before whinging about it.
Old 4th January 2011
  #100
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turtlejon's Avatar
 

i feel the comparison to stillwell is really unfair
REALLY REALLY!!! unfair

one has to spend a lot of cash and get a lot of "filler" plugs before the price becomes similar

IR1 - 550$
IRL - 250$
verbiage - 70$

the most expensive plug stillwell has is 70$, and he sent me the last 2 upgrades to mine for free. (FREE!!)

even to compare when i bought the renaissance bundle - 350 + 3 wup's @ 70 each = 510$ (and that is the "bottom of the barrel" of waves stuff)

to buy everything stillwell makes is less than 400$, and no wup... (and so far free updates!!)

when waves sent me the last wup notice, i decided instead of spending 70$ a year to stay at the same place, i could spend 70$ a year on stillwell plugs, and at least "get ahead" on some level.

wup is not ridiculous on, say, a platinum level, 200$ a year, get some freebies, avg. cost kinda low.
but what i have paid for the little renn bundle is, after 3 wuppins, just unfair. none of the other plugs i own have to be updated anywhere near as often. i believe they specifically make them not to work with upgrades. all my other plugs worked just fine when i switched to 10.6. didn't HAVE to up them, they worked. waves just stopped cold, wouldn't even load. that really seems like planned obsolescence. i can't imagine it's not.
i'm a businessman, i understand this is what they do. they've been doing it for a long time, and are still in business. i can elect to leave at any time and wup is entirely optional.
just sayin that the competition has just as good plugs, much lower cost (esp. for entry level stuff), free updates, better customer service, and a business plan that i feel is more responsible and fair for the customer, esp. low end customers.
so, for me, the choice is clear.
when i have 3 grand to just blow on plugins, i may come back to waves.
at my present budget, it seems to be much less cost effective, and much more hassle to choose waves
Old 4th January 2011
  #101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES View Post
Sorry I understand WUP.
But there is no reason why I have to pay again and again for a bundle.
For example the AU standard is the same for years but if my OS changes WUP.

So no Waves Bundle again for me:

They take my money for nothing; at least the plug ins are great yes....
But WUP over and over again is =

Waves SSL Bundle for me now 600 bought WUP = 800$ next WUp it will be 1000$ next WUP 1200$....1400$ etc...

I am not their BANKER giving credit for new development I am the customer.
Let me know when UAD starts to WUP it will be the time I buy HW only.
It sucks, I wouldn't mind paying more the first time around either. Fine, that's what it costs and I am fine with it but an indefinite amount? It really sucks cause over time you could own the hardware versions.
Old 4th January 2011
  #102
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TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by n8tron View Post
so you can potentially buy just the API 2500 now? or just the 550b?
Yes.
Old 4th January 2011
  #103
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TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtlejon View Post
wup is not ridiculous on, say, a platinum level, 200$ a year, get some freebies, avg. cost kinda low.
but what i have paid for the little renn bundle is, after 3 wuppins, just unfair.
Quote:
none of the other plugs i own have to be updated anywhere near as often.
Why have you had to re-WUP three times for compatibility?

I own Mercury.... have had it since before WUP even existed. I've only re-WUPped once in the last 3-4 years, and that was because I needed to get up to V7 and get all the free plugins that were waiting for me as part of Mercury (I think I got at least 12 free plugins just for re-WUPping). That also gave me a year of coverage (not just a one time upgrade fee) for other upgrades.

Your situation sounds like you were needlessly buying WUP... not because you had to, but because you thought you did (as others have as well).
Old 4th January 2011
  #104
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theothermarkwilliams's Avatar
 

Over the years, I have gone from Logic 6 to Logic 7 to Logic 8 to Logic 9.
In roughly the same timespan, I've gone from Panther (OSX 10.3) to Tiger (10.4) to Leopard (10.5) to Snow Leopard (10.6).

Only ONE TIME did I have to update my Waves plugs to make them work after the transition, and that was when going from a PPC machine to an Intel machine. It cost me $81.60 at the time, and that was before I knew dealers (like Tony) can get that for you cheaper.

Every other time, with every other update and system change I made, they worked just fine. I did NOT have to pay WUP for them to work. I did not have to pay ANYTHING.

Recently, I decided to WUP that old bundle for other reasons, and it cost me $30.

So, over the course of 4 different OSes and 4 different DAW versions, I have paid a grand total of $111.60. Not bad, if you ask me. Especially given that I didn't even have to do the most recent $30 update for that bundle.
Old 4th January 2011
  #105
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Ernest Buckley's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
The audio software market has changed a great deal over the past few years.

For over a decade most people I know were sold a big Waves bundle by their dealer as part of their very first DAW purchase. This was a good idea because the plug-ins that came for free with virtually all DAWs during the '90s sounded terrible. Most of us only used a few of the many Waves plug-ins however each individual used a different few. The resentment of WUP was simply that you were paying to upgrade everything in order to be able to use the tiny few plug-ins that you depended on. The price was perfectly reasonable for what it covered but it felt pretty steep to folks who in practice were only using five or ten of the plugs.

Ten years ago it would have been smarter to just buy the plugs that you used but dealers were not inclined to offer people that choice. I suspect this was largely based on dealers advertising extremely competitive prices for DAWs and then looking to compensate for the low margin by selling folks a big Waves bundle with their new DAW. Today most DAWs are a software-only purchase, the free plugs are worlds better and people prefer to buy just a few critical plugs rather than a bundle.
Excellent post/points. I`ve been using DP for 11 years, been using Waves for 10. I got the Gold Bundle because at the time, the MOTU plugs were doing nothing for me. Granted, there are plugs in the Gold Bundle that I have never touched in 10 years but I would say I have used about 15-20 of them from time to time. With that said, MOTU did improve upon their plugs, especially their Masterworks EQ which is quite nice and their Masterworks Leveler which can slam tracks quite tastefully.

It may have taken Waves a while to catch on but it looks like they are moving in the right direction. By them slashing prices and making individual plugs available, it completely opens up their catalog to most recordists. This is a plus for us long time users because Waves will most likely make more $$$ once people realize how good their software is and that will in turn make their future plugs that much better. More $$$ = more R&D = BETTER PRODUCT. Its a win-win for everyone.
Old 4th January 2011
  #106
Here for the gear
 

The lower pricing was so attractive I just bought the CLA Classic Compressor bundle.
Old 4th January 2011
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire Prod View Post
Now if they can only join the rest of the world and support 64 bit....

heh
I don't get why people would want to go 64 bit. It's great they're updating it and all new machines I guess should have the option but most of the world is still on 32 bit because the software end is a mess and there's little benefit compared to the headache of dealing with the mess on the software end.

It will be another 2 years before 64 bit is worth it, at best.

It's not any faster, all it lets you do is address more than 4 gb of ram and I've never seen a waves plugin eat that much.

:P
Old 4th January 2011
  #108
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turtlejon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont View Post
Why have you had to re-WUP three times for compatibility?

I own Mercury.... have had it since before WUP even existed. I've only re-WUPped once in the last 3-4 years, and that was because I needed to get up to V7 and get all the free plugins that were waiting for me as part of Mercury (I think I got at least 12 free plugins just for re-WUPping). That also gave me a year of coverage (not just a one time upgrade fee) for other upgrades.

Your situation sounds like you were needlessly buying WUP... not because you had to, but because you thought you did (as others have as well).
actually got a new laptop a couple times since then, and when i switched to mac there were compatibility issues.
and i waited till it was necessary, instead of when they first warned me, and they charge more the longer you wait. regular wup on the rennn bundle is 75$ or so, and it was up to like, over 120$ by the time it was time... (again, on the big$ bundles, it's capped)

and on the renn bundle, since i got it, all that has been added, or changed, is that they added a sidechain on the compressor. a side chain! woo hoo! a sidechain! the one standard with logic even has a sidechain. what comp doesn't?

i believe that as new software comes out, they stop supporting the older platforms. so one may put it off indefinitely as long as they never want to use anything new, and seemingly, only if....

it really is moot on some of the mega dollar bundles, but at my level, i'm approaching having paid double.....

i think what puts me off the most is how strict they are. they are pirated just as much as every other so i don't believe the strictness is preventing piracy. i believe it is, in fact to capitalize off of the honest folks who do pay...
and it just feels "piggy" compared, especially, with stillwell.
just a feeling more than anything else...
Old 4th January 2011
  #109
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turtlejon's Avatar
 

ok, so i'll nibble some of my words here...

they lowered the wup....

BIG WUP!
Old 4th January 2011
  #110
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Mercado_Negro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by systematika View Post
I don't get why people would want to go 64 bit. It's great they're updating it and all new machines I guess should have the option but most of the world is still on 32 bit because the software end is a mess and there's little benefit compared to the headache of dealing with the mess on the software end.

It will be another 2 years before 64 bit is worth it, at best.

It's not any faster, all it lets you do is address more than 4 gb of ram and I've never seen a waves plugin eat that much.

:P
It is worth it now. A high amount of users are mixing/producing in 64-bits environments where ideally all plug-ins should run under such architecture to avoid using external and/or internal tools like 'bridges' which take up more CPU. When users ask for 64-bits versions they probably don't need that architecture to use more RAM because those tools simply don't require it (like Waves plug-ins), it may be simply because they're running other plug-ins like Kontakt, Omnisphere, Nebula, etc., which do use more than 4 GB of RAM under certain circumstances and they need/want to use such plug-ins in those projects/sessions.
Old 4th January 2011
  #111
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theothermarkwilliams's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by systematika View Post
I don't get why people would want to go 64 bit. It's great they're updating it and all new machines I guess should have the option but most of the world is still on 32 bit because the software end is a mess and there's little benefit compared to the headache of dealing with the mess on the software end.

It will be another 2 years before 64 bit is worth it, at best.

It's not any faster, all it lets you do is address more than 4 gb of ram and I've never seen a waves plugin eat that much.

:P
Dude, it's not that a Waves plugin eats much RAM, it's that other plugins do. Sample libraries eat RAM for breakfast: Drum sampler programs, strings, keys, any Kontakt instruments, Spectrasonics stuff, etc.

There are thousands of us who benefit tremendously from the ability to access greater amounts of RAM. And you can't actually address 4GB in a 32-bit system, anyways.

You don't have to wait 2 years before 64-bit is worth it. You just have to work differently than you currently do. You might not need it for your style of productions, and that's great. But there are lots and lots of us who do need what 64-bit offers, and we need it as soon as possible.
Old 4th January 2011
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
If you think that products of this sort don't take considerable effort to port to a new OS, or a very different form of the same OS which has been going on with Apple for a while for instance, then you are quite wrong. There is significant engineering effort to keep this broad a set of plugins running on a range of OSes, within a range of DAWs. An upgrade charge is often quite justified, and in some cases probably doesn't really at all cover the actual costs of the work.
look:

Software vs hardware: no manufacturing costs, no repair costs. But PIRACY. Lets suppose no piracy was there.

So you think someone develops some plugin and then can put his hands in his pockets and do nothing? Like selling a hit record 1 Mio times? As I said, new platform meens he has to port it to that platform to attract new customers, that happens according to his own interest! Your arguments are as "silly" as mine. So you mean he just charges some fee and then can conveniently port it. Better: he writes the software in such a way as to FORCE people to buy the update plan because otherwise the old software wouldn't work. Very tempting, easy to abuse this method. In the end, its a plus minus calculation for the brand. Waves reduced WUP not because they wanted, but were forced to do it.

So if I would buy the API collection, I would pay "less than 150$", but how much less it doesn't tell me on their side. So if I purchased it and assume 2 updates (most probably only for the same functionality!), thats up to 300$ more than the paid price. So I add it and then I decide that it's too expensive for me, buy an Elysia Alpha compressor plugin instead, in the hope or believe that updates to new OS are free. End of the story.
Old 4th January 2011
  #113
Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
look:

Software vs hardware: no manufacturing costs, no repair costs. But PIRACY. Lets suppose no piracy was there.
What the hell do you think that many thousands of man hours is? That's manufacturing cost. Software doesn't just appear, it's written and it's very tedious to write, and in a multi-platform product is EXTREMELY tedious to test and verify and write. I know this from very personal experience. Large scale software (and Waves has a breadth of products that they very easily qualify) is enormously more complex than the bulk of the hardware audio products that commonly sell for multiple thousands of dollars (of which a lot has to be margin because of the very small market.)
Old 4th January 2011
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
What the hell do you think that many thousands of man hours is? That's manufacturing cost. Software doesn't just appear, it's written and it's very tedious to write, and in a multi-platform product is EXTREMELY tedious to test and verify and write. I know this from very personal experience. Large scale software (and Waves has a breadth of products that they very easily qualify) is enormously more complex than the bulk of the hardware audio products that commonly sell for multiple thousands of dollars (of which a lot has to be margin because of the very small market.)
Don't mix up development cost and manufacturing cost.

Software means trivial reproduction, and one-time development investment, unless porting to a new OS.

Extremely tedious to write ... I feel with you. Fortunately, there are other companies out there which charge less and do the same job successfully. Work is tedious and should be in general. So what's the point?

I myself do hardware development and this is sometimes 100 times more tedious.
Old 4th January 2011
  #115
Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
Don't mix up development cost and manufacturing cost.

Software means trivial reproduction, and one-time development investment, unless porting to a new OS.
Bzzt... wrong. Software on that level is a constant resource drain and money sucker. It's always requiring work to chase issues on various platforms and DAWs, deal with inconsistences in versions of OSes and DAWs that are constantly coming out, improving the architcture to make it more portable, testing, documentation, tutorials, packaging (in the software sense), dealing with things likes iLok getting cracked, etc...

And, BTW, TEDIOUS is another way of saying, expensive. If you think that a company that has the breadth of product that Waves has is supposed to operate on the shoestring budgets that a company like Stillwell does, which is basically just a couple guys as I understand it, and with a small number of products, you are mistaken. Is Stillwell going out and gathering really high quality impulse responses from places that aren't cheap to get access to and giving them away? Does Stillwell have people doing in-depth analysis of lots of vintage hardware for emulation purposes? No, they are a small company and their overhead is correspondingly small, but so is their capacity to deliver product. And as they grow, they will probably not be able to continue to operate like they do now.

You clearly don't understand software development. And if you think that the complexity of the development of most of the audio hardware that sells around here for multiple thousands of dollars in anywhere close to the complexity that Waves deals with with that breadth of product on multiple platforms, you definitely don't understand software development. It's staggering how complex these types of large code bases can become. I know this also from personal experience.
Old 4th January 2011
  #116
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barryjohns's Avatar
 

I love Waves, WUP has NEVER been an issue for me. I'd be willng to bet that most folks commenting in the thread have little real experience with recent Waves plugs beyond a trial that they most likely didn't really put them through their paces.

I own more Plugs than I'd like to admit or tell my wife, my Waves plugs are the ones I go to by far the most!
Old 4th January 2011
  #117
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TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
Software means trivial reproduction, and one-time development investment, unless porting to a new OS.

Extremely tedious to write ... I feel with you. Fortunately, there are other companies out there which charge less and do the same job successfully. Work is tedious and should be in general. So what's the point?
I can tell you that developing, and maintaining a plugin is definitely NOT a one time development investment. There are a lot of aspects that you may not be privy to. But, as someone who might be privy to some of these details, I can tell you it is far more complicated than that.

You are right in that the "materials" to make a plugin are much less. You don't need 50 resistors and 100 capacitors, etc to make a unit. But, the costs end up quite similar at the end of the day when you take other aspects into account.

Either way... this discussion has gone in a lot of directions.

Back to the topic... which is errr...??? Oh yeah, Waves just dropped their prices by a HUGE amount.

Did anyone else forget the topic after the second page?
Old 4th January 2011
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
look:

Software vs hardware: no manufacturing costs, no repair costs. But PIRACY. Lets suppose no piracy was there.
If there are no manufacturing costs, I challenge you now to have a complete, accurate emulation of a Raindirk Console built for me (I love those consoles). I will give you $100 for it. That means, you get $100 profit because there are no manufacturing costs.

It's a deal right? It's an easy $100 for you and I get a cool plugin.
Old 4th January 2011
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
Don't mix up development cost and manufacturing cost.

Software means trivial reproduction, and one-time development investment, unless porting to a new OS.

Extremely tedious to write ... I feel with you. Fortunately, there are other companies out there which charge less and do the same job successfully. Work is tedious and should be in general. So what's the point?

I myself do hardware development and this is sometimes 100 times more tedious.
Your point is still wrong!

We build 1176s and LA-2As and 3As and Pultec EQs in the studio.

The first one cost us about £400. Because we spent ages tinkering and playing with stuff. The 10th one cost us literally about £40 because we bought all the parts in bulk from Radio Spares and could buy fixed value resistors because we'd worked out the correct resistances and what not. Given, each plug-in does not cost even £40 to make, but in the volumes that API produce 550Bs, it does not cost them a huge amount more than Waves making the emulation.
Old 4th January 2011
  #120
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lagavulin16's Avatar
 

I looked into buying Waves stuff at one point. My conclusion is that with WUP, and if you ever plan on selling them, the only one that makes sense to buy is the Mercury or Diamond bundles.

None of the other ones make sense from a cost and expense perspective... obviously if you can bill out the usage of them and make money off of them YMMV, but I have plenty of plugins I own that do the job for me just fine.
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