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Waves permanently lowers prices? Dynamics Plugins
Old 3rd January 2011
  #61
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Buckley View Post
Yes, you are still misunderstanding. You wrote... "I purchased a Waves bundle many years ago (for around $2500-to this day, the most I've EVER spent on plugins from a single company). If I want to continue using these plugins I have to pay an annual (or regular) FEE."

WUP is not a yearly fee. You pay it when only if your Waves version is not compatible with your OS or DAW. I purchased the Waves Gold Bundle in 2000 at the AES convention for $800 or something. I don`t recall the version but I did not have to pay a WUP until 2009. Thats 9 years! When I did pay the WUP, I got two new plugs (H-Comp and H-Delay) which I love and everything runs perfectly with my new OS and DAW version.
That is Waves' CURRENT WUP policy. As I said, they have revised this policy over the years (to try and keep disgruntled customers). When I first experienced WUP many years ago, I wanted to upgrade my bundle, and I hadn't maintained my WUP. THE COST HAD ACCRUED over the years and I was being asked to pay (if I remember correctly) something like $800!

Just the fact that they (at that point) would think that is a valid business practice MAKES ME DISLIKE THEM.

ALSO, I just received an e-mail from from Waves with the subject line "YOUR WUP IS ABOUT TO EXPIRE".

There is no mention of only needing to update when OS etc changes. Just "PAY FOR WUP NOW OR ELSE..."

Again, this is not a business practice I feel I want to support. As others have stated, if you don't like it, don't buy it.

I don't like it, I won't buy it.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #62
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Tube World's Avatar
I think the CLA bundle will be next. After getting the JJP after that, I won't need my UAD1 cards in my computer anymore.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #63
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Muser's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMoon View Post
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the issue the fact remains, i own plugins that still work perfectly fine on Windows 7 that were designed for win 98 and they haven't cost me a penny to re-install, upgrade my OS etc etc. I dig the box out run the set up expecting an error message with each new OS and ... they work just fine. Plus, they have never needed updates or bug fixes, they worked from the word go cos the coding was done properly.
The right of it is that Waves have a business model which includes WUP to update. if you don't like it you have a right to say why.

the wrong of it is to take the opportunity to undermine a company for all sorts of mall informed reasons. not that I'm saying YOU are doing that.

if you think waves are charging for nothing other than taking advantage of a major application or OS upgrade without offering any new innovation or additional value, then that's a fair argument.

but saying they are poor plug-ins or badly coded I don't think is the right argument to get what you want.

anyhow.. it looks like they are spitting them up for individual purchases.
which is a fair and honest way of proceeding imo.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #64
Gear Head
 

Hi, Waves make top sounding plug ins,

But I would like to make a point regarding their treatment of their customers that I am the angry owner of a $2500 APA-44 which is less than 5 years old, no longer supported by Waves or beyond Mac OS 10.4, and sadly, it's worth less than $300 used. Thanks Waves, Never again.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #65
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont View Post
Apparently... you don't understand it.

If you didn't have a major OS upgrade, or DAW change that required a new update... then why did you have to buy WUP exactly?

And, WUP on the SSL bundle is not $200.
a Major OS upgrade is a normal thing. A DAW change or upgrade also.
Happens every 3-4 years. Why should I additionally pay for that as a
customer with Waves? I don't have to pay with others! It's that simple!
If I buy an upgrade for some plugins, then I assume that additonal functions
have been implemented or whatever. But not for the same thing.

The idea behing ILOK: Use your plugin on every plattform. Pay only for license!!
So their plan is AGAINST this idea.

Another point: Take a look at their webshop. Waves C1, how much does it cost? The prices are just to "impress" new customers and try to pretend to be a high-end plugin software house. All marketing strategy. If then someone offers it for 40% less, it sounds like "oh that high end stuff on sale!". Horror Prices for outdated Gold bundle etc. I can do most of it with Logic stock plugins.

I like their API collection, the LinMB, the S1. Waves CLA. Tested the first three. But I would never buy it.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #66
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audiogeek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timsplace View Post
Here's what I understand: I purchased a Waves bundle many years ago ...If I want to continue using these plugins I have to pay an annual (or regular) FEE. ...
Nope, that's a lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timsplace View Post
...
ALSO, I just received an e-mail from from Waves with the subject line "YOUR WUP IS ABOUT TO EXPIRE".
That's helpful, and they certainly don't owe you such consideration. How nice of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timsplace View Post
There is no mention of only needing to update when OS etc changes.
It's not their responsibility to tell you twice. They've already explained that in the info on the website about the WUP. Just like buying a car, or even a pair of jeans, do your own research before you pay money for something. tutt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timsplace View Post
Just "PAY FOR WUP NOW OR ELSE..."
Pics or it didn't happen. Seriously.

Back on topic, this is great news about Waves! I can finally pick and choose the individual plugs from API or V-Series, without having to spring for the whole Classics Collection. I'm pumped!
Old 3rd January 2011
  #67
Gear Maniac
 
ArisA's Avatar
 

I never would buy a waves bundle. It kinda seems to me that this should be an "allround" bundle to make everything. I guess there are people which like that. They're not as nerdy as we are and the whole day on GS checking new product alert or they check always for the new stuff :D

They want something, professional, that works for them, theire WF

So, if u have the money, why not, i personally wouldnt. I also have Waves plugin

S1 Imager

Thats the only tool i need and thats damn important for me, paid like 200$ only for that plugin heh, lifetime license btw...
Old 3rd January 2011
  #68
Lives for gear
 

QUOTE: "Why should I additionally pay for that as a
customer with Waves? I don't have to pay with others!"

Yes, you do. You just haven't thought through it.


The biggest issue anymore with WUP, is that so many people don't understand it. If Waves ever discontinue it, it will be because of this, rather than whether it's fair or unfair.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #69
Lives for gear
One thing that's good about Waves is they have nice plugin packages for PT. They had the right to charge extra because you got the TDM versions along with the RTAS so they had to charge twice the dev cost for each plugin. Now that TDM is going out the window slowly I think Waves are starting to sing a different tune.

In most cases though, the plugins that normally come with DAWs like Samplitude, DP, Live, Cubendo, Sonar, etc are just as good as the Waves plugins. If you're in PT land though, pretty much everyone is likely to have a few Waves plugs lying around because of the proprietary Avidesign format.

It's great they're coming down in price because it means more people can afford them if they want something other than standard digirack plugs which are very usable but you gotta work em.

Most plug algorithms are relatively pure in their math including the standard waves plugs unless they're emulating something like the UAD or model based waves plugs. It's sort of like the difference between standard DAW summing and something like Harrison mixbus.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #70
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Tube World's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by systematika View Post
In most cases though, the plugins that normally come with DAWs like Samplitude, DP, Live, Cubendo, Sonar, etc are just as good as the Waves plugins.
I use Samplitude, Cubase, and have used Sonar. Can you tell me what plug ins in any of these DAWS have the sound and character of the V, SSL, API, CLA, and Ren packages for instance? I could not find them in my versions.

Thanks
Old 3rd January 2011
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nst7 View Post
QUOTE: "Why should I additionally pay for that as a
customer with Waves? I don't have to pay with others!"

Yes, you do. You just haven't thought through it.


The biggest issue anymore with WUP, is that so many people don't understand it. If Waves ever discontinue it, it will be because of this, rather than whether it's fair or unfair.
ok, sounds like there is some secret I don't understand. Maybe you could explain it to me ... so far I don't see the point. I would be unwilling to pay for their homework.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #72
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I'm not gonna join the wup discussion, I think it's ok-ish in it's current form though. The only problem is that they will add a plugin or 2, but NEVER upgrade existing ones. When other companies ask for money they usually give you something. An x.0 update for that plugin. I mean, take the gold bundle. Yes, the added some plugins, but 90% of that bundle is over 10 years old and sounds like it... Those gui's alone could use a serious makeover. They're becoming vintage in a bad way...

All their "allround" bundles need a serious makeover really... Mercury is great. No doubt, but there isn't an interesting upgrade path towards it. All the other bundles include the old ones. With Horizon you get a few of the new ones (CLA comps and JJP analog) but that's it. For the interesting stuff you have to either buy the small dedicated bundles 1-by-1 or go straight to Mercury. Who in his right mind would buy Platinum?... Diamond? That's a couple 1000s worth of 10 year old plugs...
Old 3rd January 2011
  #73
Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
ok, sounds like there is some secret I don't understand. Maybe you could explain it to me ... so far I don't see the point. I would be unwilling to pay for their homework.
Every company charges for upgrade/updates. Whether this is in a transparent cost like the WUP (and therefore charged only to those who need it) or built into the cost of the original purchase (with other manufacturers), it's still there.

What homework are you referring to - R+D? if so, you're already paying for it with every software company you buy from. In the age of downloading, the 3 biggest costs will be R+D, tech support and marketing.

A company the size of Waves has a LOT of customers, many of whom need a lot of hand-holding. Yet they still respond to tech support requests VERY quickly - within hours most of the time. Even someone like Massey, good as his customer service is, takes a day or two. That's the sort of service WUP pays for, and I for one am glad of it.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
ok, sounds like there is some secret I don't understand. Maybe you could explain it to me ... so far I don't see the point. I would be unwilling to pay for their homework.
McDSP v4 to v5. $29 per plug.
Soundtoys v3 to v4 $99
Native Instruments Komplete 6 to 7 $199

All the big boy software developers charge for upgrades. Waves calls it Wup and adds some other stuff to it like their own ilok insurance thingy. That's the only difference. Whether ones upgrade policy is fairer then the other is a whole different discussion...
Old 3rd January 2011
  #75
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Every company charges for upgrade/updates. Whether this is in a transparent cost like the WUP (and therefore charged only to those who need it) or built into the cost of the original purchase (with other manufacturers), it's still there.

What homework are you referring to - R+D? if so, you're already paying for it with every software company you buy from. In the age of downloading, the 3 biggest costs will be R+D, tech support and marketing.

A company the size of Waves has a LOT of customers, many of whom need a lot of hand-holding. Yet they still respond to tech support requests VERY quickly - within hours most of the time. Even someone like Massey, good as his customer service is, takes a day or two. That's the sort of service WUP pays for, and I for one am glad of it.
If you rely on fast tech support, that's ok for you. I don't need it. If the products would be very cheap, then I would understand what you wrote "build into the cost of the original purchase".

Just make a simple calculation: You are using their stuff for 10 years (why not?). You are doing 3 DAW updates in that time. Now calculate the total cost. It's simply not my mentality to pay for software as if I had purchased a couple of tube devices where I have to change tubes every three years.
And not for the original price. It's the same as buying or renting. Renting is more expensive over a long period.

If I update from Logic 8 to 9 and Leopard to Snow Leopard, I don't like to reconsider every ###ing little software I have. It will be too painful. It should just run with the latest free update!
Old 3rd January 2011
  #76
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mavano View Post
McDSP v4 to v5. $29 per plug.
Soundtoys v3 to v4 $99
Native Instruments Komplete 6 to 7 $199

All the big boy software developers charge for upgrades. Waves calls it Wup and adds some other stuff to it like their own ilok insurance thingy. That's the only difference. Whether ones upgrade policy is fairer then the other is a whole different discussion...
Yes, thanks! Here is the point:

I don't have to upgrade to from 5 to Komplete 7. I can wait for Komplete 9, still can purchase the update and will have many many more features, a doubled library etc.

Soundtoys extend their palette with their updates. Waves does not!

It may be good for really professional custumers, relying on ensurance etc. but not for semi-professional. And Ilok offers insurance themself.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #77
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
Yes, thanks! Here is the point:

I don't have to upgrade to from 5 to Komplete 7. I can wait for Komplete 9, still can purchase the update and will have many many more features, a doubled library etc.

Soundtoys extend their palette with their updates. Waves does not!
Waves started to add plugins to their bundles in the past years. Look at their site. Gold had 5 plugins added. Not to mention Mercury...

Now, I don't own waves products for the reason I stated earlier, but I do feel they get more hatred then they "today" deserve. I don't care what Wup was. Today it looks relatively fair.

Question though. Do plugins actually stop working when you go from PT8 to 9? or Logic 8 to 9? I don't even see how they could do that code wise. Win XP to Win7 I understand, but then we're talking once every 3 years at the very least for upgrading. And with the current prices at Waves + the abillity to use the Wup expenses as discount on a new bundle it simply isn't that bad from my perspective...
Old 3rd January 2011
  #78
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tube World View Post
I use Samplitude, Cubase, and have used Sonar. Can you tell me what plug ins in any of these DAWS have the sound and character of the V, SSL, API, CLA, and Ren packages for instance? I could not find them in my versions.

Thanks
In my last paragraph, I explicitly omitted the emulations for the reason that they are emulations and therefore have different signal processing math. However, anything in the gold/diamond/etc bundles are pretty much the same as everything else.

So probably with the exception of anything in the diamond bundle which is still pretty standard, everything else (ssl, v, api, etc) is likely worth it. That being said, I'll likely never buy the diamond bundle again.

I even did a null test with their paragraphic EQ and the standard EQ that comes with live and found out that their Q is simply just a bit wider. Now understand that all plugins should have slightly different filter design in something as complex as an EQ. However the difference with the same settings with compensation for Q the audio had only about 5% difference. That's likely because it didn't quite match it all the way due to slightly different parameter math in their ticks and things like that..

This isn't exact science because there wasn't a control, but the fact that I could get a freebie included plugin to 95% of the way null with a comparable waves plugin says that the mystery behind them isn't really a mystery at all and some people do have valid points in questioning how good some Waves software really is and if it's worth the price.

You would never get two separate analog eqs to null. Even two EQs from the same brand and model will not necessarily null. That's why the analog guys will always win the war, because there's more variables involved when you're dealing with gear. A computer just does nothing but crunch numbers.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #79
Lives for gear
 

WUP plus Mercury Bundle is actually one of the better deals around. Many dealers will give a large discount on waves, and when you pay $200 for WUP, once every year or two, you get thousands of dollars in free plugins every year.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #80
Motown legend
 
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The audio software market has changed a great deal over the past few years.

For over a decade most people I know were sold a big Waves bundle by their dealer as part of their very first DAW purchase. This was a good idea because the plug-ins that came for free with virtually all DAWs during the '90s sounded terrible. Most of us only used a few of the many Waves plug-ins however each individual used a different few. The resentment of WUP was simply that you were paying to upgrade everything in order to be able to use the tiny few plug-ins that you depended on. The price was perfectly reasonable for what it covered but it felt pretty steep to folks who in practice were only using five or ten of the plugs.

Ten years ago it would have been smarter to just buy the plugs that you used but dealers were not inclined to offer people that choice. I suspect this was largely based on dealers advertising extremely competitive prices for DAWs and then looking to compensate for the low margin by selling folks a big Waves bundle with their new DAW. Today most DAWs are a software-only purchase, the free plugs are worlds better and people prefer to buy just a few critical plugs rather than a bundle.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #81
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
The audio software market has changed a great deal over the past few years.

For over a decade most people I know were sold a big Waves bundle by their dealer as part of their very first DAW purchase. This was a good idea because the plug-ins that came for free with virtually all DAWs during the '90s sounded terrible. Most of us only used a few of the many Waves plug-ins however each individual used a different few. The resentment of WUP was simply that you were paying to upgrade everything in order to be able to use the tiny few plug-ins that you depended on. The price was perfectly reasonable for what it covered but it felt pretty steep to folks who in practice were only using five or ten of the plugs.

Ten years ago it would have been smarter to just buy the plugs that you used but dealers were not inclined to offer people that choice. I suspect this was largely based on dealers advertising extremely competitive prices for DAWs and then looking to compensate for the low margin by selling folks a big Waves bundle with their new DAW. Today most DAWs are a software-only purchase, the free plugs are worlds better and people prefer to buy just a few critical plugs rather than a bundle.
Pretty much sums it up....

Also they were one of the first 3rd party TDM devs and that shaped things up a great deal because in those days like you said the plugs sucked, but that was because CPU power was puny compared to having dedicated dsp and avidesign never released a public SDK so nobody but trusted partners could dev for the platform.

Protools would've stomped all the other DAWs out of business a long time ago if they offered their LE natively and opened up their SDK which as for the SDK still needs to be done.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #82
Lives for gear
 

yes thats the point. Currently I would only consider LinMB, CLA and API and the deesser. Nothing more. For limiters there are better choices. EQs I have enough. So if WUP would be attractive for individual bundles, it would make sense.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #83
Quote:
Originally Posted by echojulca View Post
Honestly the price drop does not surprise me. Am I the only person that thought Waves Plug ins were over priced? Maybe, maybe not, but I always have. They are great and that`s why I bought them, I spend a pretty penny on their plugins, because the do what they do great.
But, for all but the specialty bundles (when purchased separately), they aren't overpriced at all. If you look at the per-plugin price of all of the native bundles from the small to the large, the per-plugin price is generally around $50, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. That's the same price that Stillwell charges for their smaller plugs. It's just that they mainly choose to do business via bundles instead of selling separates.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #84
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TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timsplace View Post
Here's what I understand: I purchased a Waves bundle many years ago (for around $2500-to this day, the most I've EVER spent on plugins from a single company). If I want to continue using these plugins I have to pay an annual (or regular) FEE.
No.... You are entirely incorrect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
a Major OS upgrade is a normal thing. A DAW change or upgrade also.
Happens every 3-4 years. Why should I additionally pay for that as a
customer with Waves? I don't have to pay with others!
Of course you do... There are only a handful of developers who have never charged for an update/ upgrade (many of which haven't been around long enough for a major OS change, etc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Ten years ago it would have been smarter to just buy the plugs that you used but dealers were not inclined to offer people that choice. I suspect this was largely based on dealers advertising extremely competitive prices for DAWs and then looking to compensate for the low margin by selling folks a big Waves bundle with their new DAW.
Your speculation above on "dealers" is mostly inaccurate.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #85
Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
If you rely on fast tech support, that's ok for you. I don't need it. If the products would be very cheap, then I would understand what you wrote "build into the cost of the original purchase".

Just make a simple calculation: You are using their stuff for 10 years (why not?). You are doing 3 DAW updates in that time. Now calculate the total cost. It's simply not my mentality to pay for software as if I had purchased a couple of tube devices where I have to change tubes every three years.
And not for the original price. It's the same as buying or renting. Renting is more expensive over a long period.

If I update from Logic 8 to 9 and Leopard to Snow Leopard, I don't like to reconsider every ###ing little software I have. It will be too painful. It should just run with the latest free update!
I've had waves for the better part of 10 years. I've wupped twice in that time, neither time for the full $200.

Tell me, how do you think other companies pay for tech support or development costs? 'Cos it doesn't come for free....the customer pays for it in the end.

I also don't really see why how your mentality works should affect how we pay for software! the fact that you don't really understand, or see software as different from hardware (and hence the same rules of ownership don't really apply).

Logic 8 to 9 requires no update to waves - if it runs under 8, it'll run under 9. There's no such thing as a "free" update, the only thing that changes is how it's charged for. If you can't get your head around that concept, I suggest doing some background reading on economics.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #86
Gear Addict
 

Appologies to all of the Waves users (and Sellers) are excited about Waves dropping their prices. This thread is NOT necessarily about WUP, I just take every opportunity to shed light on my personal experience with the company. When I first experienced WUP (as an ACCRUING service charge at the time) I deemed it unfair and complained to the company who then graciously lowered what they were asking me to pay at the time (they originally wanted $800 but lowered to less than $400-But just for me personally that one time). Waves has since changed their policy to be friendlier to their customer base (WUP is not nearly the GOUGE that it was), but this doesn't change the fact that they were willing to expect that initially. That first experience left such a bad taste in my mouth, I've refused to support them.

None of my previous statements were lies (as was accused), as they described the WUP policy of that time (as I thought I was stating clearly enough).
Old 3rd January 2011
  #87
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ProducerBoy's Avatar
 

Waves permanently lowers prices?

I'm glad they've done this. TransX, the API 550B, and Puigchild are great plugs I'd like to add to the folder. I just don't want the bundles.


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Old 3rd January 2011
  #88
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Empire Prod's Avatar
 

Now if they can only join the rest of the world and support 64 bit....

heh
Old 3rd January 2011
  #89
Gear Addict
 

They are working on 64 bit from what i understand. I think transx is one of the best from Waves. Seems like a bargain at 100 dollars. That and RenBass for 75.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #90
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Hollywoods's Avatar
 

I saw this comin when they announced Universal Audio was going RTAS.
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