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Why is pro tools midi work flow so bad?
Old 29th December 2010
  #1
Gear Head
 

Why is pro tools midi work flow so bad?

I like pro tools for the editing..

but the midi/intruement part is horrible. Im talking serious midi.. not engineer who needs to play a few midi notes every 2 years..

but some one who composes with it every day... Its a breathtaking un-creative experince..

The plugins take 5 to 10 seconds to load.. the whole program feels like its going to crack down the middle, when you have more then about 4-5 rtas instruments..

Also it restarts my pc... I cant believe the programing is so poor that a music daw would crash my whole system like that..

Even far more complex computer games never do that..

I still dont get why cant all daws be as realiable and well made as reason?
Old 30th December 2010
  #2
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uncle duncan's Avatar
 

When PT first hit the market, it didn't do midi at all - only audio. They say the latest version of PT has decent midi implementation, although still not as good as Logic or DP on a Mac.
Old 30th December 2010
  #3
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JoaT's Avatar
Midi is a relatively recent addition to PT (PT 5.0, 1999). It was introduced at the same time they launched LE, which also brought native processing to the mix (RTAS plugs).

For many Midi in PT has long been somewhat trivial too. Back in the days the tracks were usually sequenced in Logic and mixed in PT as audio. PTHD would probably still be without midi capabilities had there not been the LE line and if the competitions audio capabilities would not have risen to really compete with PT's. In order to stay competitive they have had to implement Midi.
Old 30th December 2010
  #4
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

dont have any of your issues here!!

Works fine here - is missing a few creative functions - but more than copes with oodles of channels with lots of controller data. Velocity handling and editing is top notch. Guess it's one of those "if it works for ya then cool, shame if not" scenarios........ and as a couple will attest to - I'm not exactly running a low end show here
Old 30th December 2010
  #5
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
I'm absolutely LOVING PT for it's midi capabilities. Coming from DP the only thing I was missing was a notation window, and with 8.x, they have it so I've switched completely from writing in DP and producing in PT, to doing everything in PT. And I'm loving life.

I do have to say that for bigger templates (more than 6-8 VI's) I host them off-board in VEP.
Old 30th December 2010
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I'm absolutely LOVING PT for it's midi capabilities...

.......doing everything in PT. And I'm loving life.

Same here.

Also very stable on PC (PTHD8), although the only VI's I'm running are stock PT and NI Battery.
Old 30th December 2010
  #7
Gear Head
 

I think i was trying to make a more genral point about the build quality of pro tools LE.

I run it on a pc. And before i hear this thing about having my system properly configured.

My system works perfectly. And any way even if not. I can run games on it.

I can run Daws like reason and presonus one. PERFECTLY.

In fact i dont think i ever had reason crash once. and I dont think that i ever heard about it crashing once either. on any mac or pc system i have used it on.

Most people would think thats amazing. if they were pro tools LE users..

For me thats not amazing. Its just normal.

On my pc I have pro tools le 8.

And here are the problems with it.


When i have a track triggering Hybrid to play and apregio... all the sudden it will go out of key for no reason?

The audio crackles and sputters. with the turn errors off. then it shuts down my computer with a massive error every 30 min or so.


If people say they like pro tools 8 LE interface and work flow for running built in RTas instruments or 3rd party RTAS insturment plugins.

Then all i can say is that they are missing out. Because other DAWS like reason and pre sonus studio one.. are far better made .. and no excuses.

Reason has always worked perfectly on the pc. I have never heard of one release of pro tools LE that wasnt bug ladden and crashing...
Old 30th December 2010
  #8
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uncle duncan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby snowby View Post
....I have never heard of one release of pro tools LE that wasnt bug ladden and crashing...
You get what you pay for.
Old 30th December 2010
  #9
Gear Head
 

Answer = Cubase! Seriously, even doing really complex things is easy enough for a bone head like me to figure out plus, the stability is quite good.
Old 30th December 2010
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGloriousEnd View Post
Answer = Cubase! Seriously, even doing really complex things is easy enough for a bone head like me to figure out plus, the stability is quite good.
+1 don't know about the stability thing, but i believe cubase is better in every way. Get ready to duck, these statements make you very unpopular here lol if anyone wants specifics to why i think cubases midi or audio is far superior i know both programs inside and out. PT does have the stability, noob level ease of use, and "industry standard" compatability advantages going on however. I'm sure i left a few out I don't hate pro tools but cubase/nuendo is just a more streamlined and advanced program imho.
Old 30th December 2010
  #11
Lives for gear
 

hmm idk... just finished installing it so only had it up and running a few hours now, but i find the MIDI to be rather impressive, i think the work flow is as good or better then anything else i've used. getting the system stable and powerful enough will take some tweaking and possibly upgrading, but so far i can tell i'm going to really like PT9... i never really liked Cubase for MIDI, PT is easier to set-up and the routing i can tell is going to be super handy, i already like PT better
Old 30th December 2010
  #12
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby snowby View Post
I think i was trying to make a more genral point about the build quality of pro tools LE.

I run it on a pc. And before i hear this thing about having my system properly configured.

My system works perfectly. And any way even if not. I can run games on it.

I can run Daws like reason and presonus one. PERFECTLY.

In fact i dont think i ever had reason crash once. and I dont think that i ever heard about it crashing once either. on any mac or pc system i have used it on.

Most people would think thats amazing. if they were pro tools LE users..

For me thats not amazing. Its just normal.

On my pc I have pro tools le 8.

And here are the problems with it.


When i have a track triggering Hybrid to play and apregio... all the sudden it will go out of key for no reason?

The audio crackles and sputters. with the turn errors off. then it shuts down my computer with a massive error every 30 min or so.


If people say they like pro tools 8 LE interface and work flow for running built in RTas instruments or 3rd party RTAS insturment plugins.

Then all i can say is that they are missing out. Because other DAWS like reason and pre sonus studio one.. are far better made .. and no excuses.

Reason has always worked perfectly on the pc. I have never heard of one release of pro tools LE that wasnt bug ladden and crashing...

No offense, but what's your point?

You like Reason and Presonus Studio one? Great, all the more power too you. You hate PT LE8? Great, don't use it if you don't like it.

I mean, what's your point? Trying to convince people that have PT LE8 running perfectly that it actually runs like crap because it crashes your system?

Rtas instruments are indeed more resource hungry than their VSTi and AUi counterparts. It's pretty well known to most, something Avid is apparently looking at and for the time being most powerusers have found fairly elegant ways (VEP, KORE, VST-Wrapper) to get around it.

You want me to quit using PT9 because your system runs games but not PT LE8? Hate to disappoint you...
Old 30th December 2010
  #13
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby snowby View Post
I think i was trying to make a more genral point about the build quality of pro tools LE.

I run it on a pc. And before i hear this thing about having my system properly configured.
there's your main problem. PT on a PC can be a pain in the ass...... it's why few go that route although there are some guys who really get it working well.

PT is VERY fussy about approved components so if you don't have the Avid approved spec PC then you're risking it.

<edit-addition : seems quite a few ARE running it well on PC these days so maybe you just need to look at your PC components and make sure they're all inline with AVID recommendations>
Old 30th December 2010
  #14
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarfishMusic View Post
+1 don't know about the stability thing, but i believe cubase is better in every way. Get ready to duck, these statements make you very unpopular here lol if anyone wants specifics to why i think cubases midi or audio is far superior i know both programs inside and out. PT does have the stability, noob level ease of use, and "industry standard" compatability advantages going on however. I'm sure i left a few out I don't hate pro tools but cubase/nuendo is just a more streamlined and advanced program imho.
None of them are more streamlined or advanced than any other. They all do things a little differently. Cubase misses proper trims, VCAs, decent routing - PT misses some of the MIDI features of Cubase (although as high profile Nuendo and PT users here I'm only ever looking at what Nuendo is missing in terms of useful functions - but then again my day to day work is production in large scale recordings).
Old 30th December 2010
  #15
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarfishMusic View Post
+1 don't know about the stability thing, but i believe cubase is better in every way. Get ready to duck, these statements make you very unpopular here lol if anyone wants specifics to why i think cubases midi or audio is far superior i know both programs inside and out. PT does have the stability, noob level ease of use, and "industry standard" compatability advantages going on however. I'm sure i left a few out I don't hate pro tools but cubase/nuendo is just a more streamlined and advanced program imho.
I switched from Cubase to PT and have never regretted it. At the time Cubase didn't have true VI tracks. You still had to run a separate Plugin and Midi track. Scroll all the way down you project to edit some VI automation with no overview of the project and where you were. Very annoying. No sidechaining. The VST2.x protocol doesn't support it. Rtas did. No way to move/copy insert slots around. If I wanted to put an EQ between plugins on slot 1 and 2 I had to save #2. Delete it. Load on #3, load setting. Terrible workflow for creative plugin use.

I'm sure this has all been tackled in the past 5 years, and by no means do I want to put down Cubase in any sort of way, all I want to say is that no program is definitively better than the other. At the time PT gave me all those things. Cubase didn't. Some lack of feature I don't use may be a workflow killer for someone else and vice versa. And of course, going to PT gave me a few new things to scratch my head about.

I don't get why people want to convince the world the grass is greener on their side of the DAW-fence. Why does one have to be better than the other? Use whatever works best for you and let others make their own choice...
Old 30th December 2010
  #16
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

exactly - the features suit different roles. All do the job - they do it slightly differently and with differently focussed feature sets.
Old 30th December 2010
  #17
Gear Head
 

I never said about features..

I said about the poor implementation of them. If your recording bands all day, im sure pro tools wipes the floor with all the other daws.. (except reason record obviously..thumbsup

I was saying that pro tools LE on pc is no good.

This aproved hardware thing as well? Thats crazy. Reason and Presonus one dont require you to buy a new mother board to run their programs.


I do like pro tools mixer screen and routing and editing. And its a shame to see it go.

but unstable opperation and blulky,clumbsy,buggy work flow when trying to run 5-6 instrument plugins means its getting uninstalled.
Old 30th December 2010
  #18
quit playing games on your PC.
Old 30th December 2010
  #19
Also...It might behoove you to have a different DAW for MIDI based composition. I have DP, Logic, and PT. I usually use Logic for what you're trying to do...Then I bring it into ProTools.
Its a tiny task...But its no big hassle.
Old 30th December 2010
  #20
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby snowby View Post
I never said about features..

I said about the poor implementation of them. If your recording bands all day, im sure pro tools wipes the floor with all the other daws.. (except reason record obviously..thumbsup

I was saying that pro tools LE on pc is no good.

This aproved hardware thing as well? Thats crazy. Reason and Presonus one dont require you to buy a new mother board to run their programs.


I do like pro tools mixer screen and routing and editing. And its a shame to see it go.

but unstable opperation and blulky,clumbsy,buggy work flow when trying to run 5-6 instrument plugins means its getting uninstalled.
Do you have an avid approved computer? PT8 runs fine here, but I have to agree with you about the MIDI, I don't like it or use it.
Old 30th December 2010
  #21
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DanDaMan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by willylumplumps View Post
Also...It might behoove you to have a different DAW for MIDI based composition. I have DP, Logic, and PT. I usually use Logic for what you're trying to do...Then I bring it into ProTools.
Its a tiny task...But its no big hassle.
Same here, track in Logic, then import into PT
Old 30th December 2010
  #22
Gear Nut
 

It sucks because it isn't logic

With logic you can easily make multiple tracks that feed into one to save cpu and do multiple takes/layers. It's just in my opinion the best DAW.
Old 30th December 2010
  #23
Lives for gear
10 year protools user here. A few things I found out over the years. PT and PC only go together if you do your homework with compatibility, tweak it and use no internet on it. I booted another operationg system on another hard drive just for this back in the day. Some can run it decent even on a run of the mill not supported pc, but when a real 20+ track session with plugs comes into play it can drop anytime any day...Some people never get this far and say it works even if not compatibile. I know a guy who would boast about his homemade pc and when he finally used it more than a hobby he shat himself. Build a approved Pc or get a MAC for dependability!

On the midi side I feel you! I would just use something like reason or live rewire all the time to write. It was possible in PT to compose with midi, but became a drag and was less than inspiring as much as I told myself it was fine...I had not much a clue until I got rid of the rewire and went into Logic for midi...Was able to ditch rewire and have everything all in one with a super fast midi workflow. Didin't beleive it till I tried it for month! Also no plugin crashes in Logic where PT it was a weekly ordeal with rtas. Especially on the VI Rtas side.

Now punch ins,drum edits,tight edits give me PT all day!
Old 30th December 2010
  #24
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nodie33 View Post
It sucks because it isn't logic

With logic you can easily make multiple tracks that feed into one to save cpu and do multiple takes/layers. It's just in my opinion the best DAW.
Wow... You're joking right

if there is one thing even the biggest Logic fans will agree on it's the crappy implementation of multi-timbral instruments. PT (and just about every other DAW) kills Logics workflow on that feature. Not to say that the midi implementation as a whole on Logic is bad btw. It's deeper than PT.
Old 30th December 2010
  #25
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGloriousEnd View Post
Answer = Cubase! Seriously, even doing really complex things is easy enough for a bone head like me to figure out plus, the stability is quite good.
+1

Cubase started as a MIDI program, and Steinberg made the first didn't they? (Pro 16?) so they've always been ahead in that department. Plus, it's audio capabilities are really on the ball too. Never had a problem, not once!
Old 30th December 2010
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby snowby View Post
I never said about features..

I said about the poor implementation of them. If your recording bands all day, im sure pro tools wipes the floor with all the other daws.. (except reason record obviously..thumbsup

I was saying that pro tools LE on pc is no good.

This aproved hardware thing as well? Thats crazy. Reason and Presonus one dont require you to buy a new mother board to run their programs.


I do like pro tools mixer screen and routing and editing. And its a shame to see it go.

but unstable opperation and blulky,clumbsy,buggy work flow when trying to run 5-6 instrument plugins means its getting uninstalled.
Neither does PT. It just gives you some options that were tested by Avid.
Old 30th December 2010
  #27
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Energie's Avatar
 

I am more then happy with the Midi in PT. Works for me and my workflow. Biggest complaint would be that perhaps it isn't as effecient as other programs when running Plugs, but that is all based on hersay and not my personal experiences.
Old 30th December 2010
  #28
Lives for gear
well i don't think any other daw is much better than the other it just depends on what you do. If you record lots of instruments and do some midi, protools is more than enough on every level. If you do a lot of virtual instruments or are a electronic musician Logic.Ableton or even reason might be a lot faster and more creative for you. I was reading Dr. Lukes twitter and he had the same issues between the daws and kept sending tweet to avid bitching about it. I got by in protools for some time but was really bothered when I went to a friends house,pulled it up and we wanted to just get some scratch itb midi stuff going with a live band thing....it just took to long and was a headache. With ableton live or logic I could just program a beat,play a synth then play guitar,singer sings and roll with it working out things as we go with little hassle on a pa in a live band situation writing. Same with rappers that come over and want to develop a song from scratch..they have little patients so live or logic is very great for this. They don't care how I get there as long as it doesn't waste too much time and it's fun.

Bottom line everyone has different needs and some things work better for others, but please try it before you knock it, and we're not all the same in the way we write or record.
Old 30th December 2010
  #29
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby snowby View Post
I was saying that pro tools LE on pc is no good.

This aproved hardware thing as well? Thats crazy. Reason and Presonus one dont require you to buy a new mother board to run their programs.
If you say it's crazy then, I guess it is.

To me, crazy would be defying the manufacturer's published approved hardware compatibility requirements and expecting the thing to work.

Why should I have to put diesel fuel instead of gasoline into my Audi TDI? That's "crazy". None of my other cars require me to buy special fuel.
Old 30th December 2010
  #30
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Energie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattg082 View Post
well i don't think any other daw is much better than the other it just depends on what you do. If you record lots of instruments and do some midi, protools is more than enough on every level. If you do a lot of virtual instruments or are a electronic musician Logic.Ableton or even reason might be a lot faster and more creative for you. I was reading Dr. Lukes twitter and he had the same issues between the daws and kept sending tweet to avid bitching about it. I got by in protools for some time but was really bothered when I went to a friends house,pulled it up and we wanted to just get some scratch itb midi stuff going with a live band thing....it just took to long and was a headache. With ableton live or logic I could just program a beat,play a synth then play guitar,singer sings and roll with it working out things as we go with little hassle on a pa in a live band situation writing. Same with rappers that come over and want to develop a song from scratch..they have little patients so live or logic is very great for this. They don't care how I get there as long as it doesn't waste too much time and it's fun.

Bottom line everyone has different needs and some things work better for others, but please try it before you knock it, and we're not all the same in the way we write or record.

I don't understand this. What takes long in pro tools? I pull up an instrument, bam, its there. I have no issues waiting, except for Large VI's that them in themselves take just a tad to load. no waiting here.
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