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console prices: what happend?
Old 28th December 2010
  #1
console prices: what happend?

I was offered a SSL 4k in working condition (recapped and maintained by a tech 5 month ago) out of a working studio (so no cellar dead console thing) for

attention gentleman. 9k$

with cabling.

no automation.

what happend? any info on what the main problem right now is? (except the usual the musicbiz is dead and we all gonna die, tragedy).
Old 28th December 2010
  #2
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Necola View Post
I was offered a SSL 4k in working condition (recapped and maintained by a tech 5 month ago) out of a working studio (so no cellar dead console thing) for

attention gentleman. 9k$

with cabling.

no automation.

what happend? any info on what the main problem right now is? (except the usual the musicbiz is dead and we all gonna die, tragedy).

$9k? That is an unbelievable price? Did it need a lot of repairing? What size was it?
Old 28th December 2010
  #3
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paultools's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Necola View Post

no automation.
Old 28th December 2010
  #4
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DrFrankencopter's Avatar
Quote:
what happened?
Is this a serious question? The answer is obvious....ITB.

Convenience trumps sonics is the new paradigm. That's why MP3 sales are beating CD (and lets not even get into SACD/DSD).

$9K's a pretty killer deal IMO. How much would a retrofit fader automation cost?

Cheers

Kris
Old 28th December 2010
  #5
So much gear, so little demand for it!
Old 28th December 2010
  #6
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
So much gear, so little demand for it!
lol...you know the PM i sent ya LOLZ!!
Old 28th December 2010
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by paultools View Post
no computer and/or not working..
Old 28th December 2010
  #8
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BradLyons's Avatar
 

There are various reasons and factors as to "why", but only the original seller can say why. However, we can speculate. One thing about the 4K is that although it is an amazing sounding console, do you know what it costs to power it per month? Not to mention all of the routine maitenance and up-keep that is needed to make it function and ready to run/mix without issue. It's certainly possible that the seller has fallen on hard-times, it's also possible that maybe they have a new board coming in and just want it gone at whatever cost.

The 4K is a different product these days---it's always going to be a wonderful console, but is it really necessary? I know of one particular studio that has the console, but it's really a patchbay as EVERYTHING they are doing is inside of ProToolsHD. At that point, what's the point? IMHO it makes sense (in their situation) to either do a DControl---or upgrade to something like a Neve Genesys with Automation or even a Duality.
Old 28th December 2010
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
$9k? That is an unbelievable price? Did it need a lot of repairing? What size was it?
actually I dont know.. sorry.. seems like it was a small edition 32 faderish.. but not cut down.. will ask again.
Old 28th December 2010
  #10
yeah got that..

the question is: why should anyone else spend 60k on a "new" Neve (the one that looks like one) instead of buying an old beast and invest in maintnance?

who is buying those new Genesys, Neves whatever?



Quote:
Originally Posted by BradLyons View Post
There are various reasons and factors as to "why", but only the original seller can say why. However, we can speculate. One thing about the 4K is that although it is an amazing sounding console, do you know what it costs to power it per month? Not to mention all of the routine maitenance and up-keep that is needed to make it function and ready to run/mix without issue. It's certainly possible that the seller has fallen on hard-times, it's also possible that maybe they have a new board coming in and just want it gone at whatever cost.

The 4K is a different product these days---it's always going to be a wonderful console, but is it really necessary? I know of one particular studio that has the console, but it's really a patchbay as EVERYTHING they are doing is inside of ProToolsHD. At that point, what's the point? IMHO it makes sense (in their situation) to either do a DControl---or upgrade to something like a Neve Genesys with Automation or even a Duality.
Old 28th December 2010
  #11
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carllock's Avatar
 

I might get flamed for this but:

1995-ITB sounded 60% as good as "classic analog"

2000-ITB sounded 70% as good as "classic analog"

2005-ITB sounded 80% as good as "classic analog"

2010-ITB sounded 90% as good as "classic analog"

2011-ITB looks like it will be about 95% as good

So if trending holds up, I am sure no later than 4Q 2012, we should have (ITB) sound that matches any analog configuration every made.

So is getting that "extra" 5%-10% in "sound" worth the space/repairs/air conditioning/acquisition cost of analog recording? For me sadly the answer is no.
Old 28th December 2010
  #12
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No flame, but was has changed with DAW's in the last 10 years that give these numbers? PT 8 sounds the same to me as PT 6.



Anyhow, SSL 4k for $9000. This isn't market value. But a computer with TR and automation sells these days for about 12k.

Funky Junk sells cut down 24 channel SSL's for 30-40k with no computer or TR (depending on model) and there is a waiting list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Necola View Post
yeah got that..

the question is: why should anyone else spend 60k on a "new" Neve (the one that looks like one) instead of buying an old beast and invest in maintnance?

who is buying those new Genesys, Neves whatever?
I know quite a few very good studios grabbing 4k's right now. It's a smart move IMO, as these are built like tanks and very serviceable ( modular, all through hole) these boards will run forever. The GC guy is wrong about that. Most of the new consoles being built are not serviceable in the field, and none of them that are in SSL 4k price range.
Old 28th December 2010
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carllock View Post
1995-ITB sounded 60% as good as "classic analog"

2000-ITB sounded 70% as good as "classic analog"

2005-ITB sounded 80% as good as "classic analog"

2010-ITB sounded 90% as good as "classic analog"

2011-ITB looks like it will be about 95% as good

So if trending holds up, I am sure no later than 4Q 2012, we should have (ITB) sound that matches any analog configuration every made.

So is getting that "extra" 5%-10% in "sound" worth the space/repairs/air conditioning/acquisition cost of analog recording? For me sadly the answer is no.
You don't need a flame suit. It's just a question of how you arrived at these dubious conclusions.

Regardless of whether ITB is sounding better or the same as a well calibrated analog, or hybrid analog/digital signal chain, your logic is pretty flawed. To me, a lot of your assertions are not valid. What's "Classic Analog" anyway? A Soundcraft desk and an Otari 8 Track? Maybe some people just like working on desks?

Fwiw, the business model of the last 30 years is failing and there is massive change and re-adjustment happening. For those that "actually care" about the sonics of their recordings there are "buying opportunities" in "High End" equipment in both the analog AND digital realm. Understanding the studio business, the global economy and problems like piracy within the music business will better explain why some studios are going out of business, and why others are not. That is why opportunities like the one above are presenting themselves.

For the rest, convenience and a small footprint are king. But oddly, it always seems that it's the "Convenience" crowd that are shouting from the Minarets that the days of big studios and analog are over. This is completely Bogus. If convenience is your driver, (which it obviously is) then why not just state that as YOUR M.O. and leave it at that?

Good Day
Old 28th December 2010
  #14
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Player1's Avatar
 

Player1

Quote:
Originally Posted by carllock View Post
I might get flamed for this but:

1995-ITB sounded 60% as good as "classic analog"

2000-ITB sounded 70% as good as "classic analog"

2005-ITB sounded 80% as good as "classic analog"

2010-ITB sounded 90% as good as "classic analog"

2011-ITB looks like it will be about 95% as good

So if trending holds up, I am sure no later than 4Q 2012, we should have (ITB) sound that matches any analog configuration every made.

So is getting that "extra" 5%-10% in "sound" worth the space/repairs/air conditioning/acquisition cost of analog recording? For me sadly the answer is no.
My guess would be that you don't have much experience with really great sounding consoles.
Old 28th December 2010
  #15
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player1 View Post
My guess would be that you don't have much experience with really great sounding consoles.
i do and i agree with him

and that SSL ITB and console compare proved how close things are
Old 28th December 2010
  #16
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BradLyons's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Necola View Post
yeah got that..

the question is: why should anyone else spend 60k on a "new" Neve (the one that looks like one) instead of buying an old beast and invest in maintnance?

who is buying those new Genesys, Neves whatever?
When you're spending $1,500 a month in electricity---or when you're having to constantly tech the console, it can become a liability FAST. As to who is buying these newer consoles? You'd be surprised just who and how many are actually selling. Believe it or not, the large format console is on its way back--in a modified form these days. There are still those that are going to want the 64+ input/fader congifurations for the reason that they want that large console for both image AND actual performance. Obviously, these are few and far between but the market is still there. AND there are those that want to get out, making deals on used consoles which in the end---others win now getting the console of their dreams. In the end it comes down to market and who it is--- EVERY ONE'S NEEDS ARE DIFFERENT FROM THE NEXT :-) What works for you may not work for me, and vice versa.
Old 28th December 2010
  #17
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turtlejon's Avatar
 

yeah, when i read those "percentages" i think the poster was trying more to show the trend, than point to any specific data or anything. as far as i know, there is no standardized way to measure this kind of "quality." measure noise, linearity etc. but not goodness...
and even if PT6 sounds the same as PT8 there are a lot of new plugins and stuff that do in fact sound better than the ones from the mid 90's, so i don't think the trend being illustrated here is false, or exaggerated, at all. there are some rockin' ITB mixes happening out there. and there was some real quality in the old, expensive days. these are both true, and while they may seem to conflict, the average home studio gear is not as well made as the stuff from back in the day, but the programing, and algorithms are far superior.
i guess it's unfair to compare a vintage SSL/Studer to an mbox. clearly. as well it is unfair to compare my old porta-03 to my Metric Halo, say.
so if we are going to compare something to an mbox, let it be the porta-03, that is fair. and if you want to compare the ssl, maybe try pickin on something in that price range.
the ol 1961 truck in the neighbors yard could smush the carolla, but factors like mileage, reliability, and convenience add up in the end....
Old 28th December 2010
  #18
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carllock's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Player1 View Post
My guess would be that you don't have much experience with really great sounding consoles.
Let me put that fire out...I owned API (LOve that sound),SSL's and Neve's. TAC. Tascam. Otari. Studer. I'm Old as the hills but my hearing still test in the range of people 1/3 my age.

My first pro musician gig was in 1979 ( was a kid when I started). I'm Old as the hills but my hearing still test in the range of people 1/3 my age.

My first analog recorder was a Fostex B-16, from there went into various 1" and 2" tape formats including a mint A800.

ITB is an absolute pain in the arse to get close to that classic analog sound. In the mid 1980's I started working close with a lot of companies as a beta tester and consultant.

All you guys who have analog consoles should be proud you own the best in "perceived" sound...its the perceived "worth" of sound quality what this thread is about.

I would love to grab a 4000 for $10k, but I would rather keep working with Duende(s)/UAD in my systems, and various other hi quality plugs....it's where we will all end up anyway. I joined the lazy i-pod generation. Flame me....

I say all that to say this ain't no kid pulling numbers from the air. 5 years from now GS readers will pull up my post as see I almost hit it on the head....check back guys!
Old 28th December 2010
  #19
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narcoman's Avatar
 

I don't even think that's such a great deal - remember these things cost to run and service. I've a mid 70s Neve console here - use it all the time. Cost me £30k a few years ago. I doubt I'd be able to get £10k for it now..... Space and servicing ......


Who has the money?
Who has the space?

That simple.


Do they sound good? - yup of course they do. I wouldn't part with my Neve.
Old 28th December 2010
  #20
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$9,000 for an SSL K in good nick - bloody hell!

The prices are really going through the roof now. Bloody collectors, they're ruining the market for everyone now!

I just paid £300 for a nice in-line 24 + 16 desk from AMR a few weeks ago, the market's going crazy here! Seriously, these are almost Behringer prices!!!
Old 28th December 2010
  #21
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kooz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
I know quite a few very good studios grabbing 4k's right now. It's a smart move IMO, as these are built like tanks and very serviceable ( modular, all through hole) these boards will run forever. The GC guy is wrong about that. Most of the new consoles being built are not serviceable in the field, and none of them that are in SSL 4k price range.
The only issue I see moving forward with consoles of this era is the computer: if a key component dies that is proprietary, you're in trouble.

I was pretty much given (that's right, with cabling and spares that cost $400k or so when purchased new) a Euphonix CS2000, and my main concern is the computer, a 486. what should happen if it goes bad? I'm looking at a whole bunch of trouble, unless someone has a working replacement they're willing to sell me to have as a backup against that day.
Old 28th December 2010
  #22
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TornadoTed's Avatar
That is a stupidly low price but I'm not that surprised. I think the model for the future has got to be to keep overheads as low as possible and the running costs on that console are huge.
Old 28th December 2010
  #23
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by carllock View Post
I might get flamed for this but:

1995-ITB sounded 60% as good as "classic analog"

2000-ITB sounded 70% as good as "classic analog"

2005-ITB sounded 80% as good as "classic analog"

2010-ITB sounded 90% as good as "classic analog"

2011-ITB looks like it will be about 95% as good

So if trending holds up, I am sure no later than 4Q 2012, we should have (ITB) sound that matches any analog configuration every made.

So is getting that "extra" 5%-10% in "sound" worth the space/repairs/air conditioning/acquisition cost of analog recording? For me sadly the answer is no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
i do and i agree with him

and that SSL ITB and console compare proved how close things are


I do think you're correct and like Mike, I've done my time on analog consoles.

But if you couple this with the fact that so many mid-level and high end studios have gone out of business, you will end up with a ton of consoles on the market. Maybe not all as cheap as Georges's find, but the marketplace has certainly been inundated with analog consoles.
Old 28th December 2010
  #24
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Ok, listen.. I'm software guy.. but.. sweet jesus.. an SSL 4k for 9k? are you freaking kidding me? If I had the means I would be ALLL over that kinda thing. I mean hell.. I've been looking at buying some out board that.. well I have a tentative selection to research further... that would cost just above $10k.. and that's for 2 freaking channels! I mean.. 1 stereo EQ, 2 mono compressors, and 1 stereo preamp.

I've never used a real console.. but my sense is there's a big freaking difference between a mouse and keyboard and a freaking console.. probably some pro's and cons to each but..

I don't know.. I guess I just want a console.. and I'm willing to learn to operate a soldering gun and understand schematics and whatever else..
Old 28th December 2010
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
lol...you know the PM i sent ya LOLZ!!
Even though it is cruel to laugh... it is somewhat funny. In a sick/sad/heartbreaking way.
Old 28th December 2010
  #26
No matter what anybody says I will ALWAYS prefer working on an analog console. For me it doesn't really matter about the sound of the console vs ITB, but despite having to use recall sheets, not having automation or whatever the console doesn't have that a £400 copy of Logic does, my workflow will still never be as good ITB. I love being able to touch everything and make tiny changes without having to switch to channels and open up a plugin, etc...

Now, should I buy an Allen&Heath GS3000 or wait until I can get a 32/48 channel SSL for £2,000? heh
Old 28th December 2010
  #27
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Sigma's Avatar
remember "edited out" does his mixes ITB..and he just bought a new ferrari
Old 28th December 2010
  #28
He must be the new low sparking high heeled boy?
Old 28th December 2010
  #29
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
I do think you're correct and like Mike, I've done my time on analog consoles.

But if you couple this with the fact that so many mid-level and high end studios have gone out of business, you will end up with a ton of consoles on the market. Maybe not all as cheap as Georges's find, but the marketplace has certainly been inundated with analog consoles.
tony is "on point" look if you want the overhead and maintenance of a console for it's "sex appeal" [and can afford it] that's cool ...but really i'm into the new minimalist thing not the old school "bells and whistles"..one day i will think an eq curve and it will happen LOLZ!!
Old 29th December 2010
  #30
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travisbrown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Necola View Post
I was offered a SSL 4k in working condition (recapped and maintained by a tech 5 month ago) out of a working studio (so no cellar dead console thing) for
attention gentleman. 9k$
with cabling.
no automation.
what happend? any info on what the main problem right now is? .
A friend phoned me a year or so ago and asked if I wanted to get in on buying Jim Vallance's E-Series SSL from his home studio after they finished working on drums for the latest Bryan Adams album. Vallance was decommissioning his studio and moving. Had been regularly maintained by John Vertacic and was in excellent working order. Crazy stupid low price – like giveaway price.

However, would probably have spent another $100k commissioning the thing in a suitable room with power and treatment. Then the operating and maintenance costs....

Compare the cost/benefit to a hybrid or ITB setup that can be run in a smaller, cheaper space with less OMA. These are things that depress the large-format console market.

Though for $9k, you should just buy it and let it sit in the room dark to impress clients. They like seeing a big console when they walk in the control room or check your website out.

Or for $9k, just part it out.
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