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console prices: what happend?
Old 30th December 2010
  #121
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You seem to have missed the point entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman View Post
its not a question of taste, seriously
It's ENTIRELY a question of taste. If analogue kit was identifiably better, I would buy some.

I don't own any.

Work the rest out yourself.

Quote:
....yes, it matters
...it´s not the only difference
the issue is that no digital device can emulate a hardware yet that has a character, including tape, guitar amps, eqs, comps an so on
linear phase eqs and clean digital eqs work very good, but no emulation can do what a helios does or a trident or a presonus 100$ eq
SO WHAT?!

It doesn't need to. It has it's own sound, it's own functions, it's own character. What is it about constantly trying to achieve something that's ALREADY been achieved?

You like hardware. Great! So it's a disappointment to you that no piece of software can do what your hardware does.

But me, I am perfectly happy with what the software does, so I couldn't give a rats arse whether it emulates analogue or not! It does what I want it to do, so when I pair it with my doing, I get the sound I want. That is all that matters.

Quote:
mackie desk eqs are really annyoing maybe, so don´´t talk about comparing this to supreme digital eq ala sonnex, it´s just a nice statement for your argumentation, but it´s not reality
peace
But... but.... but.... Analogue is better than digital? And therefore Mackie analogue must be better than Sonnox digital? No? You can't be right or right, it's definitely right or wrong, so just pull the traffic cone out of your arse and realise the situation. Nobody's criticising you for liking analogue kit, they're just saying that not everybody feels the need.
Old 30th December 2010
  #122
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Flying_Dutchman's Avatar
 

don´t try your stereotype game on me
i´m no analog guy, i´m using anything that helps me
and dont turn my mackie argument upside down
maybe stop drinking this special milk
Old 30th December 2010
  #123
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Halloween's Avatar
Admit it or not, consoles are dying. If you have one it is dying, losing value and all around becoming less popular. Consoles owners like myself have always been the minority, but we are also becoming the less popular.
Old 30th December 2010
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman View Post
don´t try your stereotype game on me
i´m no analog guy, i´m using anything that helps me
and dont turn my mackie argument upside down
maybe stop drinking this special milk
What are you smoking.

I'm not trying any stereotype game.

Just face the facts. Not everybody sees digital gear as an attempt to match the super analogue stuff. Some see it that:

ANALOGUE PROCESSORS ARE SIGNAL PROCESSORS
DIGITAL PROCESSORS ARE SIGNAL PROCESSORS


and if the signal processor you use gets you the sound that you want, the artist wants, and gets you repeat work, it doesn't matter in the slightest whether it's analogue or digital.
Old 30th December 2010
  #125
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Flying_Dutchman's Avatar
 

eqs and comps are processors
the technical realisation of this is digital or analog
like i said in my first post, eqs and compressors are different analog imo
they don´t need to be "super" analog, just solid tools, nothing esotheric
this is important, because i can get better results
digital has strength, but it´s not in the eq and comp. department, this was my point of view regarding desks, an answer to the original question
Old 30th December 2010
  #126
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman View Post
digital has strength, but it´s not in the eq and comp. department, this was my point of view regarding desks, an answer to the original question
And this points to different workflows for different engineers. For instance, Bruce Swedien uses little to no compression and is a master at mic-ing instruments the way he wants to hear them, so EQ and compression ITB are probably less important to someone with his esthetic than for someone who mixes with minimal automation, using tons of EQ and Compression to hold the mix together.

Neither way is right or wrong in the big picture as this is art not math, although I'm sure each side feels the other is screwing things up.
Old 30th December 2010
  #127
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KevWind's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halloween View Post
Admit it or not, consoles are dying. If you have one it is dying, losing value and all around becoming less popular. Consoles owners like myself have always been the minority, but we are also becoming the less popular.
Maybe not completely dying . Or if so ? Somebody forgot to tell these guys .Analog Recording Console Forum • Index page
Old 30th December 2010
  #128
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
what has changed with DAW's in the last 10 years that give these numbers? PT 8 sounds the same to me as PT 6.
Converters.
If you compare an 888 to mid level converters available today...
Old 30th December 2010
  #129
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JoaT's Avatar
Have you heard an analog device that does a decent emulation of old digital gear? Is there an analog version of Melodyne or Ableton Live?

Funny how digital is supposed to do everything analog does and then some to be even equal to some. There is a vast number of ways digital outperforms its analog counterparts, including total recallability, number of instances limited only by processing power, number of tracks limited only by systems capabilities, undo, inexpensiveness, portability to other locations, less energy consumption etc. The list is long.

There is this thing called practical everyday reality that makes the decision between the two quite easy for those of us who are operating in the realms of the real world.

And I don't hate analog. In fact, I like it a lot.

Sentimental fool that I am.

But I don't have a religious attitude towards these things.
Old 30th December 2010
  #130
Gear Nut
 
YuriK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by carllock View Post
I might get flamed for this but:

1995-ITB sounded 60% as good as "classic analog"

2000-ITB sounded 70% as good as "classic analog"

2005-ITB sounded 80% as good as "classic analog"

2010-ITB sounded 90% as good as "classic analog"

2011-ITB looks like it will be about 95% as good

So if trending holds up, I am sure no later than 4Q 2012, we should have (ITB) sound that matches any analog configuration every made.

So is getting that "extra" 5%-10% in "sound" worth the space/repairs/air conditioning/acquisition cost of analog recording? For me sadly the answer is no.
Alot of wishfull thinking here. Obviously you are ITB? How can you compare the flat 2D sound of digital to good OTB?
Old 30th December 2010
  #131
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carllock's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by YuriK View Post
Alot of wishfull thinking here. Obviously you are ITB? How can you compare the flat 2D sound of digital to good OTB?
Unfortunately the true value or validly of my post won't be known until next year this time, or latest five years hence.

If what I said were not true we would not see the trends.
Old 30th December 2010
  #132
Gear Head
A large part of the drop in demand for LFACs is simply the result of such a large portion of people making music both avocationally and professionally have moved into home studios. There is certainly a demand for high quality analog gear (whether you think it trumps ITB mixing is irrelevant), but for use in all but the biggest (note that I didn't say 'the best') home studio setups, it can't be 40 feet wide and require a special industrial AC unit. A good way to see this is to look at the prices of other vintage analog gear that is small and portable - vintage EQs and Comps for example. Its got nothing to do with analog vs digital - and everything to do with 'home/project studio vs THE HIT FACTORY.' Where is most music being made these days?

All this ******y about analog vs digital is so besides the point of what he was asking. What happened to console prices? The demand dropped and the supply increased due to the proliferation of options that were more desireable (not necessarily sonically, but in some cases) to a sizable proportion of the user base. Any conversation not about that should probably be in another thread - I propose a subforum called 'The Leper Colony' where all threads must be about analog vs digital or ITB/OTB mixing - any thread that derails into that gets banished there.
Old 30th December 2010
  #133
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Halloween's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Maybe not completely dying . Or if so ? Somebody forgot to tell these guys .Analog Recording Console Forum • Index page

Again, a less popular minority. No hate for consoles, I love mine. But large format consoles are being phased out. Because for the majority LFC's are being dumped, you will see consoles in million dollar studios. But the Prosumer level studios are being hurt so bad by home studios that they either opt to take it home and ITB to avoid cost. And the old console hits the street corner, its the nature of the digital beast to destroy analog consoles, maybe not purposely, but it is a side effect that can no longer be ignored.
Old 30th December 2010
  #134
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by YuriK View Post
Alot of wishfull thinking here. Obviously you are ITB? How can you compare the flat 2D sound of digital to good OTB?
Oh don't bother starting that up again.

If your ITB mixes sound flat and 2D... YOU are the problem, not the kit.
Old 30th December 2010
  #135
Gear Maniac
 

h he he ..love those threads! But it gets boring after a while...+ there is a lot to read !
Anyway - my two cents (as they say):
I got rid of almost all of my analog gear (I am not keeping any outboard, it just did not sell , yet..), that served me well over the last 15 years. I used it on more than 100 major releases, some of them million sellers, some of them topped the sales charts, club charts, whatever....

Now with my two Pro Tools HD rigs, I feel relieved, free, I work faster, I dont lose any creativity due to patching stuff, reaching for outboard that is too close to the floor, and so on.......don't know how to explain...

I dont miss any of the outboard...if I start thinking about it...I JUST REMEMBER THAT TODAYS MUSIC HAS A VERY SHORT LIFE SPAN !

If everyone is happy with results they get today from ITB (Clients / artists / labes / managers / whoever is paying for the studio)...
WHO AM I TO QUESTION THAT? WHY GO ON CRUSADING WAR?
ENJOY LIFE (and that bit of extra free time that ITB gives you!)

It is what you do and how you do it - not what you use!
Old 30th December 2010
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBear View Post

Now with my two Pro Tools HD rigs, I feel relieved, free, I work faster, I dont lose any creativity due to patching stuff, reaching for outboard that is too close to the floor, and so on.......don't know how to explain...
That I can get behind 100%. It's all about staying creative and not getting into the technical while mixing.

For me, an SSL 4k (etc) is a much faster and creative workflow. I don't have to patch or plug in or "instantiate" or "cntl-shft-n" click click click to create an aux, or page through pages or menus... It's all there on the board - think it and it happens.
Old 30th December 2010
  #137
Lives for gear
The only console I might be interested in in the future would be something like an API 1608. And I'm not all that interested in that.

Fot me it comes down to time. The amount of time I save with the real recall of ITB I can put into revisiting a mix until its right. And that seals the deal for me.

I agree you can get it sounding good faster on a console. But once you hit that first recall, with the paperwork, patching and various uncertainties all bets are off.

I just love being able to boot up the mix in a half hour window and run an alternate mix. I am using a Manley Mu on the 2 mix, and sometimes use some other analog comps but logging that is a snap.
Old 30th December 2010
  #138
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Used large frame desks will find an equalibrium price with home/privite/producer/small commercial studio buyers. True in many cases that price is less than 20% of it's original selling price but there will still be a demand for them at this lower price. Going hybrid will let you use the best features of both ITB and OTB and the above buyers have additional time luxuries so fast total recall is not their biggest priority. As such, sonics and the work flow given with large frame desks are more important for those users. Thanks to cheap desk prices I've got two (AMR and Otari) but even back in the early ITB days, mixing on a Mackie 32-8 just sounded better. So basically large frame desks are still going to be around, just at a lower price and in more small studios.
Old 30th December 2010
  #139
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s12512's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player1 View Post
My guess would be that you don't have much experience with really great sounding consoles.
thumbsup
Old 30th December 2010
  #140
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KevWind's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halloween View Post
Again, a less popular minority. No hate for consoles, I love mine. But large format consoles are being phased out. Because for the majority LFC's are being dumped, you will see consoles in million dollar studios. But the Prosumer level studios are being hurt so bad by home studios that they either opt to take it home and ITB to avoid cost. And the old console hits the street corner, its the nature of the digital beast to destroy analog consoles, maybe not purposely, but it is a side effect that can no longer be ignored.
No question that LFC are only being sold in small numbers compared to DAW sales and certainly with so many large studios going bust, a number consoles have been dumped and there may well be more. Still I think there will continue to be a niche market for LFC, with an increase in small format consoles 8 to 24 channels. Of course time will tell. Also some of what is happening may also reflect the theory that this is a double dip recession.
Old 30th December 2010
  #141
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Player1's Avatar
 

Player1

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheQuietWilds View Post
A large part of the drop in demand for LFACs is simply the result of such a large portion of people making music both avocationally and professionally have moved into home studios. There is certainly a demand for high quality analog gear (whether you think it trumps ITB mixing is irrelevant), but for use in all but the biggest (note that I didn't say 'the best') home studio setups, it can't be 40 feet wide and require a special industrial AC unit. A good way to see this is to look at the prices of other vintage analog gear that is small and portable - vintage EQs and Comps for example. Its got nothing to do with analog vs digital - and everything to do with 'home/project studio vs THE HIT FACTORY.' Where is most music being made these days?

All this ******y about analog vs digital is so besides the point of what he was asking. What happened to console prices? The demand dropped and the supply increased due to the proliferation of options that were more desireable (not necessarily sonically, but in some cases) to a sizable proportion of the user base. Any conversation not about that should probably be in another thread - I propose a subforum called 'The Leper Colony' where all threads must be about analog vs digital or ITB/OTB mixing - any thread that derails into that gets banished there.
To sum it up: Whether your digital or analog or hybrid find your groove and go with it! I have a LFC and can recall a mix within about a couple on minutes of an ITB mix if you set your work flow up properly! There is a lot of nonsense about how bad an analog console is to own, if you maintain it properly and get the right console you can have a blast. Like I said I have the best of both worlds now and I love it!
Old 31st December 2010
  #142
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by therealbigd View Post
Like I said, we keep the Amek because without it we'll look like a project studio. That's all really! (And it does look quite cool).

This is why I getting the Tascam DM-4800 it's pretty big and it looks good...
along with some 500 series preamps,eq,and compressors, a stereo disstressor
my dangerous d-box, my GIK acoustic treatment, a nice couch off of craiglist.. some plants and some good resess lighting... my room will be looking sexy

see I'll be recording christian hip-hop,RnB rythmn and bible

most of the ppl I will be working with ..will be stroked by just the mics

as someone pointed out...hip-hop,dance,pop,RnB musicians are cool with no console..as long as the groove is there and they sound good when the mixing is done.. and we know
leave the loudness to the mastering engineer
Old 31st December 2010
  #143
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carllock's Avatar
 

...Just left my buddies studio (real SSL 4k, PTHD, bla bla) but he had the VCC beta and UAD-A800 on an ITB major label R&B mix being monitored thru a pair of those mid sized westlakes, Event Opals, NS-10's and it did not sound digital cheap at all.

I had to do it, I helped him spread the mix (123 Tracks>32 stereo stems) onto his analog 4000 and of course it came together rather nice. (Disabled ITB EQ's and Comp's/Lmt's)

But the difference is within a 5% range between both mixes, With neither one being better or worse. It is just that the nature of analog does this warm sheen on mixes. We we both honestly floored how well the VCC/UAD A800 combo sounded. I can't wait till the final VCC comes out to go with my recent UAD A800 purchase.

The scary nature of this new technology world is that a 5% improvement in software can occur during a simple download update.

I use to be as analog as they came because that was my generation, but I'm
on year 2 without a vintage console and I'm good. My overhead went down by thousands. So if I get a Midas VeniceF 32 i've been lusting after, it's more of a want than a need for sure.
Old 31st December 2010
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering View Post
Converters.
If you compare an 888 to mid level converters available today...
That would be debatable if this was a tape vs converter thread, but it is console vs DAW thread.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #145
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheQuietWilds View Post
I propose a subforum called 'The Leper Colony' where all threads must be about analog vs digital or ITB/OTB mixing - any thread that derails into that gets banished there.
This is the funniest thing ive ever read here. A step below the "moan zone" I love it! Multileveled punishment lol like Dante's Inferno where you can be banished to have your computer crash just as your printing the master... for eternity!
Old 2nd January 2011
  #146
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Flying_Dutchman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
And this points to different workflows for different engineers. For instance, Bruce Swedien uses little to no compression and is a master at mic-ing instruments the way he wants to hear them, so EQ and compression ITB are probably less important to someone with his esthetic than for someone who mixes with minimal automation, using tons of EQ and Compression to hold the mix together.

Neither way is right or wrong in the big picture as this is art not math, although I'm sure each side feels the other is screwing things up.
i totally agree
it´s just my point of view, i´m far away from giving an "absolute" statement, sorry if i appeared like this
for me it´s nice to have analog eqs and comps and if it´s inside a desk thats fine, its just great
i haven´t found a digital equivalent of analog eqs and comps, it´s different and i don´t know how to get close to this
so for me a real reason to get a mixing board would be the eqs and the dynamics (maybe the preamps)... prices are down... good times to invest imo
hope this makes sense
peace
Old 2nd January 2011
  #147
Gear Nut
 
urbanopolis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by therealbigd View Post
Completely agree.

The fact is, the sound I get from my ENTIRELY ITB setup is above and beyond the minimum standard I'd accept from myself before sending to a client. I rely on my mixing to mix, not on what gadgets I use. And if something doesn't sound 'warm' enough, or 'dirty' enough, I'm confident that I've got the knowledge, experience, creativity, and equipment in my setup to modulate the sound however I want it. Honestly.

The Amek is a monitor controller and headphone controller. And a rack of pre-amps (but we could sell it for far more than the cost of replacing the 24 which we use with Focusrite 828s), and a stand for the keyboard and mouse. I do everything in the box. And the mixes which I churn out never fail to make return clients.

It's just a ridiculous argument. How many people on writer's forums do you think sit there all night saying "If money was no object, and I could afford the ink, and the servicing, I would rather use typewriters than computers'? Maybe those who've never used them. But those who have, know the convenience, speed and comfort of using a computer instead of a typewriter. And I feel that's the same here. Many of us who did their time on consoles and tape machines and have gone ITB realise how little a difference it makes in reality, and how the convenience, speed and comfort of a DAW just dfegad all over the tape machine equivalent. But those who have grown up on DAW and occasionally laid hands on a big desk will always maintain that their mixes lack because they don't own a huge console and tape machines. Wake up and smell the coffee - engineers make records, not mixing desks.

I'm sure if people applied the caring, strict and truly professional process, workflow and ethics of tape and console recording to the way in which they apply themselves to DAW recording, people would realise that it has nothing to do with analogue circuits, transformers, tubes and magnetic tape; and in fact the only negative thing which has happened in the advent of DAW recording is the way in which people have treated it.
...I agree mostly except for the ink analogy...... if I was printing etchings or fine art rather than just words, I definitely
would want the ink to physically kiss the paper rather than a flat, un-dimensional laser print. Ask any printmaker if he's rather just have them pumped out digitally....the answer is usually no.

I'm mostly ITB now, but both a fine.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #148
Pastor Obviedo
Guest
I agree with thrillfactor, a $9k is an exception, VK is selling a 16ch 4000 for $29k. SSL 4000E 16 channel (used) | VintageKing.com
Also, don't forget this is not a G+, it's a 32E with no computer, the guy selling this ssl for $9k don't want to wait or deal with a broker, for some reason he wants to take out that console ASAP, that is why he's selling that low this SSL. I would recommend to take this opportunity.

A nice mid 90's SSL 4056G+ with moving faders and Ultimation will be selling this days for $65k if you can find one.

P.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #149
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Eganmedia's Avatar
I have been wondering lately about the feasibility of a digital control surface for PTHD that looks and acts like a real console. I'm not talking about an Icon or a Smart Tango. I mean a 32-48 input "console" with 10 aux send knobs (with pre/post selectors) a dynamics section with controls for attack/ release/ threshold/ ratio, a four band EQ section with HPF and LPF, and faders with mute/solos. I realize that's a lot of encoders and it wouldn't be cheap to build. It also wouldn't accommodate all possible plugin parameters. But it would essentially be a control surface that would very much feel like an analog desk. One knob per function (as default, but assignable of course to other functions).

What I miss about my old console was not having to scroll through menus to find the things I knew were going to be there when I reached for them. I would happily rely on one kind of EQ and one kind of dynamics plugin as default plugs. Knowing what each knob was there for and what kind of sound to expect would be awesome. With the processing power of today's machines, having every audio track come up with the default plugs in place would be easy enough. Having the immediate gratification of twisting a knob and hearing a difference- without instantiating a plugin and mousing through the parameters- would go a long way to making me more comfortable ITB.

I'm getting used to my C24 and don't pine for my D&R Cinemix like I did the first few months, but nothing other than a physical knob can really replace a physical knob.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #150
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Mr.HOLMES's Avatar
best topic ever on GS.

Thats maybe the first real interesting thread in years since I am on GS.

Not from the engineers standpoint ITB vs OTB.

It shows an economic change caused by a small industrial-revolution called digital audio.

It is possible that some studios cant justify the costs anymore even if the owner still loves the console.

Talking to some professionals in Germany I can hear often the following sentences:

1. Less clients in the last years.
2. Smaler budgets if you have clients.
3. But fix-costs stay the same or go-up.

So you have the choice.

Hold on the high-fix-costs and closing your doors one day.
Or reducing your costs and stay in business.

Everyone who runs a business knows the answer.
As long you are not a dreamer you will reduce the costs instead of closing your doors.

And thats not specific to studios.
In every business you have to do this decision when the income goes downhill.

Large-formate-console-lover would not save you to stay in business.
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