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console prices: what happend?
Old 29th December 2010
  #61
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
Enough about you, what about the music? Don't your artists miss the feel of latency free cue mixes? What about sound, do you think things sound better today?

99% of what you say is money related (except for the sweet spot issue). Recalls? Get a Duality with 40 comps and EQ's at your finger tips and a tea boy. It's a faster work flow and sounds better.

My beef is not with ITB. My beef is excusing it. We all have to do what we have to do (I'm with you 100%) on that - this is after all a business - but let's not BS that the results "are just as good". It doesn't do anyone any good. Having said this, I don't think this is the most important issue facing music and a declining industry. The big issue as I see it is the decline of the studio proper - that is, a room where artists can perform as a whole (ITB nor not). I think this is a failure that has long reaching effects.

But back to topic. Are you honestly saying that if there were huge budgets consistantly available you'd still stay ITB? If so, I'll accept your assertion and move on.

Yes,yes,yes
thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup


Nobody can look me in the eye and say they are mixing ITB because it sounds as good as mixing on LFC.
Not even Sigma.
That's just BS.


And 99% of the time when somebody trys to explain why they prefer to mix ITB they don't mention sound at all.
They talk about recall,maintenance,electricity bill, cables,overheads, rent, MP3's, Ferrari's,headphone mix,tracking room,coffee machine,etc.
Anything but the sound.

And for a reason.
Old 29th December 2010
  #62
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Sigma's Avatar
ITB is the only way to go... LFC people are beating a dead horse..

software is king..get used to it
Old 29th December 2010
  #63
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
I love analog consoles. I actually looked at purchasing a Neve VR60 last month. But that purchase was for me... not my clients. My clients DON'T care. They are happy with the mixes. I've had a few of my more prominent clients request that I do hybrid mixes. They do not want me to mix on a console. Not everyone is in love with the console sound like they were a few years ago.

Just like someone pointed out earlier in this thread, when SSL consoles first came out people detested their sound. The SSL was the anti-Neve sound and was frowned upon by a tremendous amount of the industry. When people started to get a handle on the how to mix on a SSL, it become an industry standard.

In that same light is mixing ITB and mixing Hybrid. Once people start wapping their sound around this mixing style it will become the sonic cool thing to do.

In the end if people are not digging what you are doing for them, whether it's ITB/Hybrid or on a console, you wont stay in business long.
Old 29th December 2010
  #64
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Knox's Avatar
 

re: a $4000 SSL . . . .$1,500 . . that is nothing! . . IF it were true! (what is that? a day or day and a half studio time? . . depends on the studio) . . especially if the console brings in clients. Which SSLs usually do. And I'm not an SSL fan. If I were going to a studio . . . I would never go to one with just a computer monitor / plug ins over a console. To me . . . a lot of people who are always raving about how great their ITB mixes are are defending it because ITB is all they have. Yea recall and some other things may be easier ITB . . . but putting 'ease' over quality is a cop out IMV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BradLyons View Post
When you're spending $1,500 a month in electricity---or when you're having to constantly tech the console, it can become a liability FAST. .
Old 29th December 2010
  #65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
ITB is the only way to go... LFC people are beating a dead horse..

software is king..get used to it

Oh, i got used to it.
But not because it sounds goodthumbsup


As for the "ITB is the only way to go"- this is a business that never had only one way to go and it never will
Old 29th December 2010
  #66
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledecker View Post
Oh, i got used to it.
But not because it sounds goodthumbsup


As for the "ITB is the only way to go"- this is a business that never had only one way to go and it never will
just like analog tape is almost dead..so will LFC's for mixing music

and to me ..i have much more audio control with plug ins than out board gear..
the color palates i have ITB are far more vast than the most fully outfitted studios i ever worked in..both eq and reverb / fx wise

you are fighting an argument that by the very nature of the thread proves you wrong.. big console manufactures are doing something else or outta buisiness.. like i said earlier ..there are only like 250 j/k's in the world.. LFC manufacturers saw the writing on the wall

and consoles have lost so much of their value that it's scary for studio owners
Old 29th December 2010
  #67
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Mark Kaufman's Avatar
 

It makes sense to me.

-So many studios going out of business
-Not so many up-and-comers having the wherewithal to afford high end equipment
-Plug-ins getting better all the time
-High end studios embracing more ITB elements
-Music industry in general continues to tighten the belt

Why on earth would the price of used high-end consoles remain stable?

When you begin to drain the buying pool, the surface price floats down as well. It's sad, but it makes sense. Sounds like a lot of misfortune and a lot of opportunity.
Old 29th December 2010
  #68
Gear Addict
 
pongmaster's Avatar
 

.

people often make better mixes at a console because the are LIMITED in options, and don't **** it up ITB with lots of stuff.
Old 29th December 2010
  #69
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pongmaster View Post
people often make better mixes at a console because the are LIMITED in options, and don't **** it up ITB with lots of stuff.
EDIT: INEXPERIENCED people often make better mixes at a console because the are LIMITED in options, and don't **** it up ITB with lots of stuff.
Old 29th December 2010
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman View Post
It makes sense to me.

-So many studios going out of business
-Not so many up-and-comers having the wherewithal to afford high end equipment
-Plug-ins getting better all the time
-High end studios embracing more ITB elements
-Music industry in general continues to tighten the belt

Why on earth would the price of used high-end consoles remain stable?

When you begin to drain the buying pool, the surface price floats down as well. It's sad, but it makes sense. Sounds like a lot of misfortune and a lot of opportunity.
Well sure.. but when you're talking sub $10k prices? At sub $10k prices.. I wouldn't say you're in mass market territory but.. even just the EQs and Compressors are worth more then that.. When you get into that kinda price range there's a hell of a lot of people who can then start thinking about affording one.. who couldn't before... so you would think that would create upward pressure on the price
Old 29th December 2010
  #71
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman View Post
It makes sense to me.
Me too. Maybe if I had a large for-hire facility that attracted and needed to impress traditionally-minded national clients, it might make financial sense.

But as an independent who's rep has little to do with gear (most clients hire me because they have no interest in recording technology, and trust me to handle that), only thing that LFC is doing is chomping my profits.

I have clients who might even see it as dated technology; like maybe if I went into a video post-production studio and they had a giant video switcher and A-B-C roll linear editing.

I embraced ITB/outboard hybrid long ago. Part of that process was embracing what it is, and not spending my life and $'s trying to imitate something that was current 25 years ago.
Old 29th December 2010
  #72
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Mark Kaufman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsearles View Post
Well sure.. but when you're talking sub $10k prices? At sub $10k prices.. I wouldn't say you're in mass market territory but.. even just the EQs and Compressors are worth more then that.. When you get into that kinda price range there's a hell of a lot of people who can then start thinking about affording one.. who couldn't before... so you would think that would create upward pressure on the price
Agreed. Maybe that's why we're not seeing $9k as the norm for used SSLs. So far it seems to be a bit of an anomaly. So far.

But in general, I'd expect to see a lot more deals like this in the coming days. A lot more people in desperate situations...a lot less people thinking of investing in an expensive recording studio.
Old 29th December 2010
  #73
theother
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by carllock View Post
I might get flamed for this but:

1995-ITB sounded 60% as good as "classic analog"

2000-ITB sounded 70% as good as "classic analog"

2005-ITB sounded 80% as good as "classic analog"

2010-ITB sounded 90% as good as "classic analog"

2011-ITB looks like it will be about 95% as good

So if trending holds up, I am sure no later than 4Q 2012, we should have (ITB) sound that matches any analog configuration every made.

So is getting that "extra" 5%-10% in "sound" worth the space/repairs/air conditioning/acquisition cost of analog recording? For me sadly the answer is no.
Where do you get this ridiculous figures from? Who comes up with such numbers? Plugin companies? Digidesign? haha

In my experience is was like this (after using and owning LFC and almost every plugin for over 20 years):

1995 - 10%
2002 - 30%
2010 - 32%
2020 - 32.5% ?

heh

Digital get's better but it will never reach the standard that analog set. Not in our lifetime.
If you buy the best in analog it will last you a life time and you can start being creative instead of buying new plugins every year that promise to be the ultimate analog ones. No dealer/manufacturer or audio magazine wants that of course. I made up my own mind.

Digital is convenient, but why does music have to be convenient?
Old 29th December 2010
  #74
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ddageek's Avatar
 

console prices: what happend?

The fact is many of the studios today are doing more than just music. ITB and an Icon mean quick recall and reset. It's kind of funny that the 4k has been replaced by the next generation of what was once one of it's biggest selling points.
Old 29th December 2010
  #75
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aisle 6 View Post
I am not certain that a digital mixer is going to sum differently to your DAW.
you mix and whatnot on the tascam board...sum mix on something like the Dangerous D-box
that's my plan anyway..
Old 29th December 2010
  #76
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mhs2xs's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
So much gear, so little demand for it!
That's it. As always, Joel has the correct perspective and post.
Old 29th December 2010
  #77
Gear Head
 
Jeancab's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by carllock View Post
2010-ITB sounded 90% as good as "classic analog"
So, that would mean that a DAW summing is sounding 90% as good as an analog desk summing,
AND that compressors/EQ plugins are 90% as good as comp/EQ hardware ? I strongly disagree.

Adding 2db with a plugin VS adding 2db with an analog EQ are still completely differents things for me.
It worth much, much more than "10%" !
Old 29th December 2010
  #78
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About 5 years ago we realized our 4000 was becoming a heater and 2trk monitor. Even in old Sony studios we would see mixing sessions booked for room A and the console was just a big 2trk monitor. We were getting into more tv/movie work, plus began juggling more projects than ever. We, and our clients, preferred the total instant recall of being ITB. We still have the same 3 room studio but we no longer have consoles. It's about workflow, not about money, or not about "that's all we have".
Old 29th December 2010
  #79
Gear Maniac
 

hey guys I just read on another thread that a fellow gearslut member has a template with the UAD SSL package spread out on the DAW mixer he didn't say how many tracks but he did say he uses it for tracking and mixing and he's loving it..

I know it's not the same thing as ssl physical console... but I keep hearing it's pretty close...to the analog version... but that's always opinion... I haven't picked up my UAD Omni package(adding the ssl package and the studer plug) so... I guess I'll try it out for myself.....
Old 29th December 2010
  #80
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
ITB is the only way to go... LFC people are beating a dead horse..

software is king..get used to it
heh

Well brotha, whatever your selling - I ain't buying.

Old 29th December 2010
  #81
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John Moran's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
things don't sound better today because 3/4 of people who call themselves engineers AREN't it's that simple ..
no ****, brudda
Old 29th December 2010
  #82
Gear Addict
 
pongmaster's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
EDIT: INEXPERIENCED people often make better mixes at a console because the are LIMITED in options, and don't **** it up ITB with lots of stuff.

exactly, but i didnt wanted to insult anyone.
Old 29th December 2010
  #83
Quote:
Originally Posted by theother View Post
Where do you get this ridiculous figures from? Who comes up with such numbers? Plugin companies? Digidesign? haha

In my experience is was like this (after using and owning LFC and almost every plugin for over 20 years):

1995 - 10%
2002 - 30%
2010 - 32%
2020 - 32.5% ?

heh

Digital get's better but it will never reach the standard that analog set. Not in our lifetime.
If you buy the best in analog it will last you a life time and you can start being creative instead of buying new plugins every year that promise to be the ultimate analog ones. No dealer/manufacturer or audio magazine wants that of course. I made up my own mind.

Digital is convenient, but why does music have to be convenient?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeancab View Post
So, that would mean that a DAW summing is sounding 90% as good as an analog desk summing,
AND that compressors/EQ plugins are 90% as good as comp/EQ hardware ? I strongly disagree.

Adding 2db with a plugin VS adding 2db with an analog EQ are still completely differents things for me.
It worth much, much more than "10%" !


Thank youthumbsup


Like somewhere in 2023 when i will be retired and gone fishing UAD will bring new and improved UAD Crosstalk 2 plugin to add even more "analog flavour" to your mixes. thumbsup

And for the rest of the 21. century we can expect plugin manufacturers to do their best to simulate 20.th century technology.

That's how miserable they are.
They are not inventing something new.
They are trying to replicate 50 year old technology and still fail.
How pathetic is that?

Only thing i expect from new plugins is to look better.fuuck
Old 29th December 2010
  #84
Gear Addict
 
pongmaster's Avatar
 

.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Necola View Post
erm.. no it^'s not.

i like consoles. faders up => sound.
ITB => a lot of eqing, comp, limiting, parallel compression, saturation => sound
you are aware that your statement implies, that you either:

can't record your (favourite track ever) in your DAW,
and listen to it without "a lot of eqing, comp, limiting, parallel compression, saturation"

or

your (favourite track ever) does sound like "a lot of eqing, comp, limiting, parallel compression, saturation", when you have a fader up at your console.


do you actually have worked on a console?
Old 29th December 2010
  #85
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travisbrown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by The MPCist View Post

As for ITB, just because your electricity bills are lower doesn't mean you're saving money.... My convertors (two Symphony I/O's, AD16x/DA16x, Cranesong, etc... cost a lot. Way more than a simple tape machine that will last way longer than my convertors will.
Nope. It does mean you are saving money. Capital costs and OMA.

You price out getting a commercial electrician to come properly service a room for a LF console. Then average out the draw for that thing being on 12-16 hours a day. However, many places just kept the console on 24/7 because the electricity was cheaper than the maintenance needed by powering up and down - cycling power is hard on the components.

Someone here might remember better, but I recall a typical power bill for a large G or E series being somewhere around $2000/month. That thing draws a lot of current. Of course depends on your cost per kW/h.

Then figure out the cost of a maintenance tech. And allow for opportunity cost during downtime (because you can't just swap out an SSL like you can a 1u or 2u converter.) And the extra cost per square foot for the larger facility space.

And we haven't even factored in the cost of the console. For convenience sake, let's say the SSL was free.

And on tape machines.....

And have you ever owned a tape machine? Do you remember the days of $0.05 per inch for maintenance?

And add your media costs of a couple hundred bucks per 16.5 minutes of degradable tape. (though that's more a client cost, but a considerable cost proposition.)

And if you were a bigger facility with a taperoom, you had to hire a tapeboy to sit in a room and watch the wheels go round and round. Oh, and you had to have a safety machine, so double your maintenance, media, and proportionate real estate costs.

I can't remember what a new Studer A800 cost. $30k? Did your (admittedly nice) converters cost way more than that?

Oh, last thing. You'll also need to install and operate an HVAC system to keep the console and machines cool and make your working space bearable. Don't want sweat dripping down into the faders.

Cost is just one reason the industry moved/is moving away from OTB formats, but a pretty significant one.

We can all agree that LF consoles are nice to work on and you can arguably get better results than ITB; however, there are many things that outweigh that small benefit.
Old 29th December 2010
  #86
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledecker View Post
Oh, i got used to it.
But not because it sounds good
So, do all ITB recordings sound bad, or at least somehow worse than all LFC recordings?

And, I think it can be agreed that every LFC sounds different from the next, even same brand/model. So, do all LFC's sound "better" (whatever that means) than ITB? Why?

The LFC vs. ITB debate is so subjective, it's nearly a religion.
Old 29th December 2010
  #87
Lives for gear
 

for the record I'm sorta bored by the religious wars of which is better analog or digital.. I, at least for the moment, personally believe in hybrid systems..

And I sorta don't give rat's you know what.. if someone who doesn't know anything about working with sound isn't able to do anything better then create turds.. this isn't news to me.. and that there are more turds because there are more people who don't know what they are doing.. doing audio.. doesn't bother me.. as long as I don't have to step in the turds.

I figure if.. after whatever this transformation that is going on does its thing.. we end up with more better music.. cool-a-rew.. but its hard to say too much about it in the moment without the perspective of serious historical scholarship..

The thing is.. for people who say that analog consoles sound better then digital.. because of the nature of the kinda religious wars waging.. you probably have to be a serious devote of ITB mixing.. and have fully committed to that for sometime.. for me to totally believe you.

Although, frankly.. I do believe that analog is better.. and I do want a freaking console.. and I don't think people who say digital is just as good as analog are doing any great damage to the world. I mean.. most people who say digital is as good as analog.. there's financial issues at play here.
Old 29th December 2010
  #88
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown View Post
Nope. It does mean you are saving money. Capital costs and OMA.

You price out getting a commercial electrician to come properly service a room for a LF console. Then average out the draw for that thing being on 12-16 hours a day. However, many places just kept the console on 24/7 because the electricity was cheaper than the maintenance needed by powering up and down - cycling power is hard on the components.

Someone here might remember better, but I recall a typical power bill for a large G or E series being somewhere around $2000/month. That thing draws a lot of current. Of course depends on your cost per kW/h.

Then figure out the cost of a maintenance tech. And allow for opportunity cost during downtime (because you can't just swap out an SSL like you can a 1u or 2u converter.) And the extra cost per square foot for the larger facility space.

And we haven't even factored in the cost of the console. For convenience sake, let's say the SSL was free.

And on tape machines.....

And have you ever owned a tape machine? Do you remember the days of $0.05 per inch for maintenance?

And add your media costs of a couple hundred bucks per 16.5 minutes of degradable tape. (though that's more a client cost, but a considerable cost proposition.)

And if you were a bigger facility with a taperoom, you had to hire a tapeboy to sit in a room and watch the wheels go round and round. Oh, and you had to have a safety machine, so double your maintenance, media, and proportionate real estate costs.

I can't remember what a new Studer A800 cost. $30k? Did your (admittedly nice) converters cost way more than that?

Oh, last thing. You'll also need to install and operate an HVAC system to keep the console and machines cool and make your working space bearable. Don't want sweat dripping down into the faders.

Cost is just one reason the industry moved/is moving away from OTB formats, but a pretty significant one.

We can all agree that LF consoles are nice to work on and you can arguably get better results than ITB; however, there are many things that outweigh that small benefit.
thumbsup
Old 29th December 2010
  #89
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Player1's Avatar
 

Player1

I won't debate the ITB versus great sounding console because there is no debate if you've ever had the pleasure of working on one. I work in post a lot and the audio standards in most cases is not held to the same standard as music production. In music I want my guitars, drums, bass, etc to sound the way I want them to sound, in post the video people wouldn't know the difference! I've done thousands of post gigs for very good money but it won't ever take the place of me doing a great music project! As a result I decided to sell my C24 after using it for 8 years and I bought a Raindirk Symphony console. I use a command 8 with PT for my automation and 0 all of my faders and use the Command 8 for fader control except very subtle changes at the end. I love having this console, most people have never heard of Raindirk so their experience is lacking, but it is a stellar sounding console! I have the best of both worlds, ITB fast post work, or stretch it out on the console for the big fat sound. I have 42 channels of summing with fabulous eq's that sound way better than plugins. I can recall a mix just about as fast as I ever could ITB. My console draws 9 amps under load and with all the rack gear and everything in the room operating I draw 14.5 amps. So much for all analog console costing so much to operate and cool. My room doesn't get much hotter than before. I just wanted to set some things straight about owning a high end console, it's not as bad as some make out to be. The amount of time I spend on maintenance is equal to the amount of time I spent trying to get the tone out of my ITB rig.
Old 29th December 2010
  #90
Lives for gear
 

Analog tape dead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
just like analog tape is almost dead..so will LFC's for mixing music

and to me ..i have much more audio control with plug ins than out board gear..
the color palates i have ITB are far more vast than the most fully outfitted studios i ever worked in..both eq and reverb / fx wise

you are fighting an argument that by the very nature of the thread proves you wrong.. big console manufactures are doing something else or outta buisiness.. like i said earlier ..there are only like 250 j/k's in the world.. LFC manufacturers saw the writing on the wall

and consoles have lost so much of their value that it's scary for studio owners
Hey I work with alot of young kids these days in my studio and they are totally stoked over the tone of analog.. and they think digital sucks really bad!!!!I just bought my 3rd studor A820 and use them all the time... MY saying is quality audio is not dead , some people are!!!

I was tracking a band to tape the other day, and a kid asked me how come digital sounds so bad..I told him its a long story!!!
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