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console prices: what happend?
Old 29th December 2010
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
i do and i agree with him

and that SSL ITB and console compare proved how close things are
That test was a sham, but I suspect you don't want to know that as you have already resigned yourself to your current workflow.

I know one thing, 99% of the people here *money no object* would be working on a LFAC. The only reason we even talk about ITB is because there is no money. So instead of being an apologist for the current state of affairs, call it for what it is.

You got to do what you got to do, cause there ain't no money.
Old 29th December 2010
  #32
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If I were offered SSL 4K for 9K in a good question, I will buy it. EQs themselves worth for 9K.
For 30-40K?, I'm not, even if it comes with automation.
Old 29th December 2010
  #33
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The MPCist's Avatar
 

I know ITB is great and all but I do like to sit in front of an actual console with PTHD or even a tape machine and work that way.... It's more inspiring for me.

As for ITB, just because your electricity bills are lower doesn't mean you're saving money.... My convertors (two Symphony I/O's, AD16x/DA16x, Cranesong, etc... cost a lot. Way more than a simple tape machine that will last way longer than my convertors will.

Even though software is great (and I use them too), I feel that spending money to buy outboard is a better investment in terms of sonics and saleability. Software also needs 'upkeep' and every year I spend at least a 1000 bucks to keep up....

I still like consoles. If I didn't have the SSL, I probably would own an expanded 1608....
Old 29th December 2010
  #34
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Necola View Post
I was offered a SSL 4k in working condition (recapped and maintained by a tech 5 month ago) out of a working studio (so no cellar dead console thing) for

attention gentleman. 9k$

with cabling.

no automation.

what happend? any info on what the main problem right now is? (except the usual the musicbiz is dead and we all gonna die, tragedy).
Isn't the auto a BIG part of why SSL became such a big studio standard?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFrankencopter View Post
Is this a serious question? The answer is obvious....ITB.

Convenience trumps sonics is the new paradigm. That's why MP3 sales are beating CD (and lets not even get into SACD/DSD).

$9K's a pretty killer deal IMO. How much would a retrofit fader automation cost?

Cheers

Kris
Not really new. Many folks jumped on the SSL bandwagon for the automation, recall, and convenience.
Old 29th December 2010
  #35
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Player1's Avatar
 

Player1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
i do and i agree with him

and that SSL ITB and console compare proved how close things are
I've worked ITB for the last 8-9 years and I really like it, however I tried to get this big detailed sound from ITB and while I get very good sound it's not great. I decided to by a great console and I glad I did! I can assure you that you can't get the sound of kick ,bass, etc. out of ITB that I can get from my console. With that being said I've had some nice sounding projects ITB but I just couldn't get it to go over the edge. I've tried summing and plugs this and plugs that to no avail. It's more of a hassle for me to work through the console than just IT but the results are worth it to me.
Old 29th December 2010
  #36
Gear Maniac
 

I never used a big console and never plan too.. I'm a youngster compared to most here on the forumn no grammys.. no awards...no albums yet...soon though on the albums anyway...

but yeah I like the hyprid idea

high end pres,compressor,(a dissector with british mod), some high end converters(going to go the 500 series route modified ones from fivefishaudio and such)
a digital console like the tascaam DM-4800 and a good summing box

you got a damn good board in the tascam... may not have those 1970's eqs,etc...

but I think buyint the UAD Omni package and adding the SSL package and Struder plug I won't be adding anymore plugs and free updates through UAD... and learn how to mix correctly in the box is the most important thing you can do....

there are some great thread on here about how to gain stage correctly ITB...
how to treat audio correctly when tracking

so ppl you can use high end outboard gear to get golden in and then mix correctly with high end plugs like those from Waves or UAD and have golden going out

and use a board like tascam to get that hands on feel and if you computer crashes you still can record and mix a whole session
yeah you'll be in the 10k to 20k on gear.. but if you can cure your gearlust and work with what you have (making sure you have a good sounding room is must) you won't have to buy some more mics...

mixing is all about using staple techinques and still
experimenting with tracks and finding hey this works great

of this is my humble opinion..
Old 29th December 2010
  #37
Gear Nut
 
J.R. McNeely's Avatar
 

console prices: what happend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BradLyons

When you're spending $1,500 a month in electricity---or when you're having to constantly tech the console, it can become a liability FAST.
Tech issues yes. $1,500 a month for electricity to power an SSL? Not hardly! My electric bill for my entire room is not that much per month!

I mix ITB when a client requests it....and these days, some do. I personally hate mixing ITB for 2 reasons....and it has NOTHING to do with the way it sounds.

1. My personal work flow. It takes me longer simply because I'm used to grabbing eq's and faders quickly...and I've been mixing on a desk for quite a long time. Old habits die hard.

2. There is nothing worse than doing an ITB mix and using an SSL console as nothing more than a stand for your keyboard and mouse!!
Old 29th December 2010
  #38
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People on here are going to hate me for this but...

Years ago, me and some mates, got offered an SSL G+ series for free. We'd only have to pay for the vehicles and crew to get the console out of the studio it was in and to our place.

We said no.

Why?

The agreement was that we'd have it and use it. Not have it and sell it. And there wasn't much market at the time for them anyway.

So, we'd have loved to have it, but:
•*Cut downs weren't really in fashion then, and it'd have required us to move to a new room just to fit the flaming thing in the room. And then with that size room we'd probably need to buy new speakers to fill the room.
•*It would have cost us £1,000 a month in electricity to keep it switched on.
• It would have cost us a few £k a year to have a tech visit it now and then and keep it in running order.
•*It would have mass-multiplied our insurance premium.
•*It would have been a PITA to move, and require us to hire a telehandler + driver (and delivery as not road legal), a 7.5t truck and driver, a few mates to do humping and dumping, etc etc.
•*We couldn't be a studio with an SSL G4000, then Logic, a MOTU 24I/O, Genelec 1029s, a G4, lots of plugins, and the mic set we had for our PA. If taking such a huge jump on the desk, we'd have to go PT|HD, G5, 192s, Main Monitors (or at least big mids), a full mic set and what not. You can't upgrade one thing to world-class and leave the rest at project studio.

So, for one year of having the desk, it'd have probably cost us £10,000 of building, £12,000 of electric, £3-5,000 of maintenance (+ parts + initial service), £???,000 of insurance, £1000 of vehicle, crew and driver hire, and then £20,000+ of gear upgrades, meaning, in reality, the 'Free' SSL would have actually cost us £50,000+ to take custom over.

Doing so would have taken us from being able to just let our mates in the studio, recording cool tunes that we liked, with everyone just having a great time on the minimum rate we could still pay the bills with, to being a fully commercial studio that would no doubt have to spend most days recording bands we didn't necessarily like. Not the ethos that any of us were looking for.

Long post, but I think it proves how it's not as simple as striving for the best gear all the time, and how there is a place in the world for cheaper gear, and how you can't just look down your nose at it and assume they're newbies with no experience.
Old 29th December 2010
  #39
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DigitMus's Avatar
 

I see some specious arguments on both sides here.
Reality check:
Some people work better/faster/easier ITB, and some on LFACs.
As has been reiterated on many threads here throughout the years "It's not the arrow; It's the Indian" ('Native American' for the PC apologists)

Just because I can't get a certain sound ITB, doesn't mean someone else can't - and vice-versa. Or maybe we can both achieve equal results, but one method will take one or the other of us much more time/effort/psychic damage...

The economics of the situation isn't cut & dried, either. In light of the above paragraphs, if one has a penchant for one way of working, purchasing the system that he/she is most comfortable/proficient on will yield more long term income regardless of initial & ongoing costs of operation -assuming that the individual in question is a seasoned & successful pro on their choice of platform.

Scott
Old 29th December 2010
  #40
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mu6gr8's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R. McNeely View Post
I mix ITB when a client requests it....and these days, some do. I personally hate mixing ITB for 2 reasons....and it has NOTHING to do with the way it sounds.

1. My personal work flow. It takes me longer simply because I'm used to grabbing eq's and faders quickly...and I've been mixing on a desk for quite a long time. Old habits die hard....
+1, although I do prefer the sound of *my* analog gear to the purely digital domain.
Old 29th December 2010
  #41
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carllock's Avatar
 

therealbigd:

That is what I'm talking about. People laugh at me because I sold off all my consoles and studios. I unloaded a huge amount of monthly overhead, I was sucking in rent on Park Ave studio/office at one time even. I feel bad for people I had to let go but we are in a brand new economy and technology is surging fast.

Like I said before when I got flamed, two more years and technology might be "out of this world". It was only in the mid 1990's Steinberg brought VST tech with a lame Neon plug that might play one note...now look at the literally thousands of virtual synths out there. When I cut my consoles I cut my real synths.

With decent new stuff like Midas VeniceF ,A&H Zen/Zed, Mackie 1060i, and even 500 series lunchboxes there are good sounding consoles out. The 500's (incl SSL Lunch Boxes) is what is really killing the deal. Vintech just came out with 500 series neve modules....get 8 or 16 and there is your neve summing desk (edit:with technical support/Warranty)

Exclusive: Vintech 500 Series Pre | Everything Recording

It is really jacked up to buy a vintage desk if your paper or plans fall short. The mode for me is downsizing or simplifying my life, I do miss the classic consoles. Guarantee you before the year is out Universal Audio (UAD) comes out with a Slate VCC type concept...Dozens of consoles even rare/exotic stuff...you know they will have to one up Slate.
Old 29th December 2010
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by therealbigd View Post
People on here are going to hate me for this but...

Years ago, me and some mates, got offered an SSL G+ series for free. We'd only have to pay for the vehicles and crew to get the console out of the studio it was in and to our place.

We said no.

Why?

The agreement was that we'd have it and use it. Not have it and sell it. And there wasn't much market at the time for them anyway.

So, we'd have loved to have it, but:
•*Cut downs weren't really in fashion then, and it'd have required us to move to a new room just to fit the flaming thing in the room. And then with that size room we'd probably need to buy new speakers to fill the room.
•*It would have cost us £1,000 a month in electricity to keep it switched on.
• It would have cost us a few £k a year to have a tech visit it now and then and keep it in running order.
•*It would have mass-multiplied our insurance premium.
•*It would have been a PITA to move, and require us to hire a telehandler + driver (and delivery as not road legal), a 7.5t truck and driver, a few mates to do humping and dumping, etc etc.
•*We couldn't be a studio with an SSL G4000, then Logic, a MOTU 24I/O, Genelec 1029s, a G4, lots of plugins, and the mic set we had for our PA. If taking such a huge jump on the desk, we'd have to go PT|HD, G5, 192s, Main Monitors (or at least big mids), a full mic set and what not. You can't upgrade one thing to world-class and leave the rest at project studio.

So, for one year of having the desk, it'd have probably cost us £10,000 of building, £12,000 of electric, £3-5,000 of maintenance (+ parts + initial service), £???,000 of insurance, £1000 of vehicle, crew and driver hire, and then £20,000+ of gear upgrades, meaning, in reality, the 'Free' SSL would have actually cost us £50,000+ to take custom over.

Doing so would have taken us from being able to just let our mates in the studio, recording cool tunes that we liked, with everyone just having a great time on the minimum rate we could still pay the bills with, to being a fully commercial studio that would no doubt have to spend most days recording bands we didn't necessarily like. Not the ethos that any of us were looking for.

Long post, but I think it proves how it's not as simple as striving for the best gear all the time, and how there is a place in the world for cheaper gear, and how you can't just look down your nose at it and assume they're newbies with no experience.
Why not just move to the bigger room, hook it up half way with the 24i/0, mix ITB or with whatever you have and turn on the SSL only for special occasions. Just having it sit there will make you money from it being in advertisements and credibility of it being there. If someone really want's to pay you let's say $900 per day to mix with it, turn it on. You think your customers know the difference between a motu and an apogee? They just know there's a big honkin board sittin there. I'f you get even 1 person willing to give you $900 for a day of mixing, screw it buy another 24 i/o till you can get a couple alphalinks.

It's easy i think getting caught up in i don't have this gear or that gear so I won't make this move, but the customers are not anal gear freaks like us. They really don't even know, and you simply knowing what your doing with a little eye candy goes a long way. What do you think an icon is? an $80,000 mouse for mixing ITB for godsake. It's mostly to look impressive in my opinion.

Maybe I just don't understand the whole you gotta leave the 4000 on all the time and cost $1000+ per month of electricity. Is it really true? Will they really break if you turn it on and off say 10 times a month when people want to shell out the dollars for you to mix with it? Let's say it shortens the life of the power supply to only lasting another 5 years. wouldn't it be worth the savings to just buy a new power supply for a couple grand every 5 years? I'm being conservative here, i think it'll shorten to considerably longer than 5 years, especially after the first replacement but this is just a theory i don't really know.

I guess my opinion is just having the SSL in your studio will get you paid more whether you use it or not. Shallow right? business is business though. Shouldn't it's existence in your studio put you in another tax bracket? maybe that's just the mystique of a console like that for us and I'm off track thinking it will generate much higher income even when not being used. I have noticed that the more gear I have access to in my studio the more I get paid for having a badass studio.

No one expects you to use every gear for every situation but having alot of it gives you both credibility and the right tool for the job. I guess I'm saying having a ton of tools and a few really impressive looking tools will get you paid more even when you bust out a needlenose pliers. Then you can say "I've got the perfect thing for what you need right now" and give you upsell ability: if they want to use the super impressive toy it's gonna cost more, alot more. My point the needlenose will cost them more too, because the impressive pneumatic torque wrench is sitting next to it and powered off. My friend is a chiropractor. He has the $100k spinal decompression machine when others are way cheaper. Don't you think it get's him more customers and paid more for it just existing in his place? Only a small % actually need it.
Old 29th December 2010
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Necola View Post
what happend? any info on what the main problem right now is? (except the usual the musicbiz is dead and we all gonna die, tragedy).
Definitely not the norm, more like the exception(even though i did pay just a little bit more than that for mine).

Been looking for a 4KG+ and a 9000K lately for a client who is setting up a new place and the prices i am seeing is pretty much what its been for the last decade. Also to retrofit automation and or recall, the SSL channels have to have the cards and ribbons already, if not for the computer, monitor, external keyboard, cards and ribbons you are looking close $10K-$15K and not to mention the man hours you will have to pay to have someone set it up for you.
Old 29th December 2010
  #44
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As fast and as busy as I am I could not even imagine having that console shut me down for a day. The last half dozen times I have been on an older large format console I was constantly working around dead channels and non functioning features. When a 4k works it is like listening to God talk......but....when it doesnt.........well....it aint God talking thats for sure.

I still need faders up in front of me but I am going with something new to avoid the headaches.
Old 29th December 2010
  #45
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bobsandifer's Avatar
 

ohhhh
When Im feeling nostalgic and want the old console vibe, I have my son randomly trip the breakers in my control room. heh
Old 29th December 2010
  #46
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsandifer View Post
As fast and as busy as I am I could not even imagine having that console shut me down for a day. The last half dozen times I have been on an older large format console I was constantly working around dead channels and non functioning features. When a 4k works it is like listening to God talk......but....when it doesnt.........well....it aint God talking thats for sure.

I still need faders up in front of me but I am going with something new to avoid the headaches.
Well its a 32 channel board which for an SSL is the perfect size to try to maintain these days. Why? Because you just need one power supply. Also since its smaller it will be easier to stay on top of the issues. Caring for an SSL is not as difficult as people may think, as long as you can do some of the maintenance your self and you use common sense around it.
Old 29th December 2010
  #47
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cinealta's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFrankencopter View Post
Convenience trumps sonics is the new paradigm.
It's been that way since the 80s. Remember around '82 when all those mixes were coming out of Sarm, Townhouse etc, on the new SSL boards and everyone thought they were sterile sounding? Those guys ditched their Neves and Tridents for automation. Now people think SSL sounds good but want to ditch it for ITB.
Old 29th December 2010
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarfishMusic View Post
Why not just move to the bigger room, hook it up half way with the 24i/0, mix ITB or with whatever you have and turn on the SSL only for special occasions. Just having it sit there will make you money from it being in advertisements and credibility of it being there. If someone really want's to pay you let's say $900 per day to mix with it, turn it on. You think your customers know the difference between a motu and an apogee? They just know there's a big honkin board sittin there. I'f you get even 1 person willing to give you $900 for a day of mixing, screw it buy another 24 i/o till you can get a couple alphalinks.
Well the offers gone now (long gone), but for discussions sak:

Because just for the bigger room, insurance bill and servicing we're talking £15,000 per year - just to have a console that only occasionally gets switched on?!

If you're going to pay for the insurance and servicing of an SSL you may as well use it.

It's easy i think getting caught up in i don't have this gear or that gear so I won't make this move, but the customers are not anal gear freaks like us. They really don't even know, and you simply knowing what your doing with a little eye candy goes a long way. What do you think an icon is? an $80,000 mouse for mixing ITB for godsake. It's mostly to look impressive in my opinion.

Maybe I just don't understand the whole you gotta leave the 4000 on all the time and cost $1000+ per month of electricity. Is it really true? Will they really break if you turn it on and off say 10 times a month when people want to shell out the dollars for you to mix with it? Let's say it shortens the life of the power supply to only lasting another 5 years. wouldn't it be worth the savings to just buy a new power supply for a couple grand every 5 years? I'm being conservative here, i think it'll shorten to considerably longer than 5 years, especially after the first replacement but this is just a theory i don't really know.

I guess my opinion is just having the SSL in your studio will get you paid more whether you use it or not. Shallow right? business is business though. Shouldn't it's existence in your studio put you in another tax bracket? maybe that's just the mystique of a console like that for us and I'm off track thinking it will generate much higher income even when not being used. I have noticed that the more gear I have access to in my studio the more I get paid for having a badass studio.
[/QUOTE]

I understand your point, but my point is that we enjoyed recording music for our mates in the shed/garage building in our garden. We could have taken on an SSL, but as our aim was not to draw in lots of clients who just want eye candy (I did write that before) and it's just to enjoy recording good bands who we liked; and taking on the SSL would have involved lots of hassle and lots of money that would have taken us from running a studio for fun and good music with our mates, to running a pro studio for profit. It's the only way such a place could be run.

My point all along - that remains - is that the best gear is not always the best for you!
Old 29th December 2010
  #49
Quote:
Originally Posted by carllock View Post

1995-ITB sounded 60% as good as "classic analog"

2000-ITB sounded 70% as good as "classic analog"

2005-ITB sounded 80% as good as "classic analog"

2010-ITB sounded 90% as good as "classic analog"

2011-ITB looks like it will be about 95% as good

So if trending holds up, I am sure no later than 4Q 2012, we should have (ITB) sound that matches any analog configuration every made.


1995-ITB 60% of people convinced themselves it sounds as good as "classic analog"

2000-ITB 70% of people convinced themselves it sounds as good as "classic analog"

2005-ITB 80% of people convinced themselves it sounds as good as "classic analog"

2010-ITB 90% of people convinced themselves it sounds as good as "classic analog"

2011-ITB looks like it will be about 95% of people who convinced themselves it sounds as good as "classic analog"


So if trending holds up, I am sure no later than 4Q 2012, we should have 100% of people in denial.

heh
Old 29th December 2010
  #50
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DrFrankencopter's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
It's been that way since the 80s. Remember around '82 when all those mixes were coming out of Sarm, Townhouse etc, on the new SSL boards and everyone thought they were sterile sounding? Those guys ditched their Neves and Tridents for automation. Now people think SSL sounds good but want to ditch it for ITB.

You, and Drumsound are right... The SSL was a step back in terms of sonics compared to those old Neve's/APIs/Tridents; but you got huge channel counts with automation. Similarly, the introduction of the 2" 24 track headstack was a step back in sonics when compared to the 16 tracks that preceded them.

I guess the 'convenience trumps sonics' paradigm has been going on for longer than I thought. Sheesh what's next, will studios be replaced by smart phones recording tracks via MP3 into a cloud? It probably already exists....

Cheers

Kris
Old 29th December 2010
  #51
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Aisle 6's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by fataltone View Post
a digital console like the tascaam DM-4800 and a good summing box

you got a damn good board in the tascam... may not have those 1970's eqs,etc...
I am not certain that a digital mixer is going to sum differently to your DAW.
Old 29th December 2010
  #52
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DrFrankencopter's Avatar
Maybe this sounds like sacrilege to some, but how about parting it out?

Without the automation you are missing the most appealing feature (at least at the time of its introduction) of the SSL. With a little investment in metalwork, and wiring harnesses/power supplies you could sell preamps & EQ's for a pretty good profit. Other bits and pieces could be collected and sold as spare parts. Anyone have a guess as to the value of the console if sold in this manner?

Cheers

Kris
Old 29th December 2010
  #53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
remember serban gehna does his mixes ITB..and he just bought a new ferrari

Oh yeah?

Well, CLA does his mixes on SSL and he just bought a new Ferrari and Aston Martin


I sold my Ferrari and bought SSL.
Then i sold my SSL.
I drive Volkswagen now.heh
Old 29th December 2010
  #54
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
That test was a sham, but I suspect you don't want to know that as you have already resigned yourself to your current workflow.

I know one thing, 99% of the people here *money no object* would be working on a LFAC. The only reason we even talk about ITB is because there is no money. So instead of being an apologist for the current state of affairs, call it for what it is.

You got to do what you got to do, cause there ain't no money.
i'm not "resigned"..i don't miss a tangle of dozens of patch cables gear stacked up everywhere.. having to look in 3 directions to monitor limiters etc..having 1 new patch screw up an old patch and exercising the cables at 2 am.. sliding around a 72 in console and patching things in the 'sweet spot" etc etc..using mix write up sheets that take 3 hours to get close to the set up that has to be torn down

and especially having a limited amount of aux gear and having to choose what's important to use it on...i can have 40 compressors in my mixes now if i choose..

plus i love racked pre's of different styles...
Old 29th December 2010
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
i'm not "resigned"..i don't miss a tangle of dozens of patch cables gear stacked up everywhere.. having to look in 3 directions to monitor limiters etc..having 1 new patch screw up an old patch and exercising the cables at 2 am.. sliding around a 72 in console and patching things in the 'sweet spot" etc etc..using mix write up sheets that take 3 hours to get close to the set up that has to be torn down

and especially having a limited amount of aux gear and having to choose what's important to use it on...i can have 40 compressors in my mixes now if i choose..

plus i love racked pre's of different styles...
Enough about you, what about the music? Don't your artists miss the feel of latency free cue mixes? What about sound, do you think things sound better today?

99% of what you say is money related (except for the sweet spot issue). Recalls? Get a Duality with 40 comps and EQ's at your finger tips and a tea boy. It's a faster work flow and sounds better.

My beef is not with ITB. My beef is excusing it. We all have to do what we have to do (I'm with you 100%) on that - this is after all a business - but let's not BS that the results "are just as good". It doesn't do anyone any good. Having said this, I don't think this is the most important issue facing music and a declining industry. The big issue as I see it is the decline of the studio proper - that is, a room where artists can perform as a whole (ITB nor not). I think this is a failure that has long reaching effects.

But back to topic. Are you honestly saying that if there were huge budgets consistantly available you'd still stay ITB? If so, I'll accept your assertion and move on.
Old 29th December 2010
  #56
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so here's what I'm thinking, right?

I know I'm naive.. but if you get a console for.. 9k... you shouldn't be spending an arm and a leg on the insurance.. or at least you shouldn't have to spend and arm and a leg on the insurance.

How big are these consoles anyway? I mean 32 channels? That thing would be going in my house... so I don't think it would really be an issue of costing more for a bigger room.

Ok.. the electric bill.. I don't know.. I'd look at some of these hippie technology freak kids who create these ways of moving off the grid using solar and wind and whatever.. I'd research that stuff.

I don't know.. maybe this sounds like crazy talk.. but to me.. owning a console is like "living the dream." I mean screw white picket fences!!! So to me.. hell.. if I don't have a place to put it I'd just put it in storage and work on moving to some place that would work for it.. maybe research where electricity costs fluctuate based on where you live.. etc.

I mean I get the.. ITB thing. I mean.. however you want to slice it, it eats into the demand for consoles.. where once upon a time you really needed a console to do serious work.. and now.. one can make certain compromises and.. well you know.. and there are certain things that computers do better.. and..

And I think the point is that ITB technology has been getting better... and the better it gets.. the more that tips the balance against expensive consoles

And One thing I will say is that.. probably what we want in consoles is changing... because of the computers.

I mean.. ideally I'd probably want to be able to automate every parameter on the console.. I feel like at the very least.. I probably need the ability to automate volume, pan, pan width, and aux sends.... and probably a low pas filter...

I also feel like I probably need to be able to control software from the console. I have somewhat of an expectation like.. I kinda want instant recall of everything.

At any rate.. the thing is.. is that it's going to be a part of a hybrid system.. integrating with the computer... and I don't feel like consoles generally do that well yet.. I mean I'm not a console expert by any stretch of the imagination.. but that's my impression.

I feel like.. once upon a time people felt more like I do.. that the console was the dream.. and now we've moved into a time where.. people don't really feel that so much.

But.. well personally I always feel like the goal.. studio / gear wise.. is to move towards less and less compromises... and the console still reigns supreme in these terms.
Old 29th December 2010
  #57
Lives for gear
 
edva's Avatar
Good analogue is always nice, whether you're mixing ITB or not, if you can afford it. It's a prerequisite on the front in, at the very least. However, the software is getting damn close. Nebula at 24/96 through MH converters, for example, on recordings tracked through good analogue to begin with, is at least 95% there, IMHO.
Old 29th December 2010
  #58
Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
Good analogue is always nice, whether you're mixing ITB or not, if you can afford it. It's a prerequisite on the front in, at the very least. However, the software is getting damn close. Nebula at 24/96 through MH converters, for example, on recordings tracked through good analogue to begin with, is at least 95% there, IMHO.
erm.. no it^'s not.

i like consoles. faders up => sound.
ITB => a lot of eqing, comp, limiting, parallel compression, saturation => sound

the fact, that used SSLs and "maybe" other brands sell that cheap led me to the question: "who is buying those new RND, Neve 75s..." and so ?
Old 29th December 2010
  #59
Lives for gear
 
Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
Enough about you, what about the music? Don't your artists miss the feel of latency free cue mixes? What about sound, do you think things sound better today?

99% of what you say is money related (except for the sweet spot issue). Recalls? Get a Duality with 40 comps and EQ's at your finger tips and a tea boy. It's a faster work flow and sounds better.

My beef is not with ITB. My beef is excusing it. We all have to do what we have to do (I'm with you 100%) on that - this is after all a business - but let's not BS that the results "are just as good". It doesn't do anyone any good. Having said this, I don't think this is the most important issue facing music and a declining industry. The big issue as I see it is the decline of the studio proper - that is, a room where artists can perform as a whole (ITB nor not). I think this is a failure that has long reaching effects.

But back to topic. Are you honestly saying that if there were huge budgets consistantly available you'd still stay ITB? If so, I'll accept your assertion and move on.
so patch cables connection crapping out in the middle of a mix is money related.as well as write up sheets.. gear views etc


95 % of my work is mixing and mastering so ITB is a no brainer no matter what the budget..back during LFC days i'd say 80% of my work was mixing..so i always did mostly mix work as tracking gtr overdubs and vocals most 1/2 decent assistants can manage with a few minutes of help from an enginneer for mic selection and compressor set up and it gets a little boring and is a waste of my talent to do

since the late 80's my mix clients just waked into the room and said print it or they said turn this up here ..pull some verb down and spent an hour tops in the room with me..so really there was never a need for a big room on my part.to entertain clients..i'd never go back to LFC..i have said it a dozen times..you want to ride horses while i drive a car ? fine! horses sure do lookey purdy


when i have to track an album..i like lunchboxes and outboard preamps..why have 1 flavor of console?..and i worked on big boards, 8078, helios, vr's , 9000, etc etc down the line..woundn't want to again..is it a PIA to "create a console to track? YES but the results are better IMHO and no one needs more than 24 or so mic inputs to track so a console that size isn't considered Large frame to me..52 and up is

and SSL? never my cup of tea..the automation in a 9000 was good ..but never liked the eq or the preamps..i considered it a toy after years on the 8078

latency? client and i never had an issue with it 128 samples they can't tell

all musicians need is a nice vibe..a great headphone mix and no interruptions or down time..they don't need a LFC..and they need a great tracking room..on the other side of the glass [my side ]..they just need experience and my choice of mikes and pres

things don't sound better today because 3/4 of people who call themselves engineers AREN't it's that simple ..

hey there are still people using spinning wheels ..umm just usually in theme parks or museums
Old 29th December 2010
  #60
Here for the gear
 

it's mostly the money

Equipment changes and has a strange way of initially not sounding better and then somebody does something clever with it and (most) people get used to the new sound. That doesn't mean it's progress, or actually better. Usually some aspects represent real progress and the rest is compromise. The driver is always cost and the post about how ITB is ruling because there's no money is right. I don't believe that even the most enthusiastic "I never used a console so I don't care" person could sit down at a healthy, high-quality analog console and announce that they can't get a sound out of it! But the highly exaggerated numbers in some posts about electricity bills and maintenance are illuminating! It reminds me of how some people were in a weird hurry to get rid of their LPs once CDs arrived. All these things have pros and cons and they all break. The real cost can only be figured out against what you really get out of the equipment. In my meager efforts at ITB, I found it very difficult to get happy with the results I'm sure I have a lot to learn, but it sure was a drag to work so hard at getting any life out of the sounds when there's another way to do it which totally works! But I can't argue that a picture of a console on a screen isn't cheaper.
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