The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Kick drum i start to hate you!! Dynamics Plugins
Old 27th December 2010
  #1
Lives for gear
 
Mr.HOLMES's Avatar
Kick drum i start to hate you!!

Crazy... but true.

Currently I am training to mix drums better.
But mhhhh

It starts with the Kick drum it always does not sounds the way I want it too.

I always end up with a roomy sound with decay of the kick.
But I want a very low decay.

I tried envelopers I tried compression with a short release but NO there is always that roomy sound with the decay that just sounds wrong to me for this song.

I want a tight kick in the middel and I get a roomy kick that is in the middle but does not feels in the middle because of the decay bommmm bo bommm..

Kick I start to hate youheh RGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Old 27th December 2010
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Halloween's Avatar
Start with the room, then the kick, then recording the kick.

Its everything before you hit record that makes the biggest differences.
Old 27th December 2010
  #3
Lives for gear
 
lord_bunny's Avatar
 

that's true... get the kick to sound how you like it. the best way to get another kick sound is to try another kick.

however, spl transient designer is creepy-good at tightening drums and in particular reducing or magnifying ambience.
Old 27th December 2010
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Halloween's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_bunny View Post
that's true... get the kick to sound how you like it. the best way to get another kick sound is to try another kick.

however, spl transient designer is creepy-good at tightening drums and in particular reducing or magnifying ambience.

Yeah in a pinch TD with a real soft gate can make you smile.
Old 27th December 2010
  #5
Lives for gear
 
AnthonyRochester's Avatar
 

I would use a gate (with look-ahead feature so you don't lose the start of it)
Old 27th December 2010
  #6
Lives for gear
Yeh get the kick sounding properly before you even decide to mic it up...i.e. tune it first...put a pillow in there if it resonates a bit much

If everything is already recorded, i've found the combination of some EQ taking out some of the boxiness that tends to happen sometimes, a little compression and a gate does a lot to make the kick sound tighter. Failing all of this, mixing it with a sample also helps.

Remember though...the secret to mixing drums is tracking them well to begin with...there's some work arounds if you've already recorded and can't get the drummer back in, but you're still chasing your tail to a certain extent doing these...

+1 on spl transient designer...shapes the transient and the sustain in a way thats different to EQ and compression.
Old 27th December 2010
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Mr.HOLMES's Avatar
MHH

OK tried the most tags by you already before psoting....thanks for your help
The drums are recorded very well it is just that decay thing which is driving me nuts... I am happy with the sound of the kick.

There is woom on the end and this makes me r...

I tried to get it with a gate but even with lookahead I don't get the decay to cut off the way I want it.....
Old 27th December 2010
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Hammer Mark's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halloween View Post
Start with the room, then the kick, then recording the kick.

Its everything before you hit record that makes the biggest differences.
+1

Maybe too obvious to mention, but if it's too roomy, it's the room. Absorption is your friend.
Old 27th December 2010
  #9
Gear Addict
 

Build a heavy blanket tunnel on the outside of the kick to keep the room out of it. One mic at the head one at the end. mix to taste.
Old 27th December 2010
  #10
Gear Addict
 
dcrigger's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_bunny View Post
that's true... get the kick to sound how you like it. the best way to get another kick sound is to try another kick.
Maybe, but long before switching drums is tuning and muffling the drum at hand appropriately for the sound you are looking for...

David
Old 27th December 2010
  #11
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES View Post
Crazy... but true.

Currently I am training to mix drums better.
But mhhhh

It starts with the Kick drum it always does not sounds the way I want it too.

I always end up with a roomy sound with decay of the kick.
But I want a very low decay.

I tried envelopers I tried compression with a short release but NO there is always that roomy sound with the decay that just sounds wrong to me for this song.

I want a tight kick in the middel and I get a roomy kick that is in the middle but does not feels in the middle because of the decay bommmm bo bommm..

Kick I start to hate youheh RGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Great suggestions for you so far. If I were to simply address the mix side of things, I would agree that a gate or the SPL transient designer are great suggestions for tightening up your kick track. Also, maybe you have too much kick in your overheads? If you find that that is so, try some high passing until you get rid of it. Any kick bleed in your other close mics? If yes, then try the high pass approach there as well. When you solo your kick track, is it roomy sounding? If the answer is yes then your main problem probably lies in your mic'ing approach. Whether that's the positioning or the mic your are using I do not know. Best of luck on your quest though. Drums can be a bitch. - paul
Old 27th December 2010
  #12
Lives for gear
 

What you experience can be due to a number of factors. It could be due to old beat-up heads, bad tuning, uneven bearing edges of the shells, defective hardware or simply just lack of setup time. Since lack of time is common when being in these situations typically these problems are solved either by renting a kit specifically for recording or by hiring a drum tuner (who will understand how to tune it to fit the song).

For less decay a figure-8 pattern might work better as a room mic in a small room. This is because the mic picks up the end-to-end reflections, but not the side/side or floor/ceiling reflections. Even if the mike is angled, it will still pick up fewer of these reflections than any other pattern. As a result, where a small room reveals itself unpleasantly when recorded with omnis or cardioids, it may sound perfectly acceptable with a figure-8.
Old 27th December 2010
  #13
Lives for gear
 
RCM - Ronan's Avatar
Are your toms resonating when the kick drum is hit? Floor tom resonance is often a part of the kick drum sound.
Old 27th December 2010
  #14
Lives for gear
 
turtlejon's Avatar
 

i've had that exact issue before. damp the resonant head!
i mean it.
not dampen, moisture won't help (unless calf skins)
everyone here wants to process it afterwards, but this is mush easier, cheaper, and better sounding.
start by folding up a paper towel, or some newspaper, and a wee bit of electrical tape. if there's a hole in the head, play with the internal dampers. chuck a piece of plastic sheeting in there. best kick damper yet. put the mic less than a foot away. roll off the low end of everything else, especially the room. phase issues can get way worse with some lower freq's. i play and record drums everyday. well, maybe 5 days a week... the kick may sound too dry in your room, but that will put a better signal to tape. at least try it, it's free.
also, a lot of the pro drummers i work with have recommended aquarian super kick 3 heads, batter and reso. they sound awesome. i can tune down and get an almost 808 sound, i can tighten and get a thick hard rock sound. right in the middle is perfect for everything else. great heads! best 60$ on a kick sound. i don't even put anything inside the drum anymore...
good luck
Old 27th December 2010
  #15
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES View Post
I always end up with a roomy sound with decay of the kick.
But I want a very low decay.
The good news is that the room matters a bit less if you tune low enough, because the room will be mostly flat below the lowest room mode.

I prefer to use a full resonant head and mike out front rather than inside the drum, and still there ways to get a tight sound.

I use the Remo muffles on both heads, and have internal felt dampers installed on both heads.

If I really want a super tight sound, which I usually don't, I put R-19 fiberglass inside the kick (paper side touching the drum shell and all the way around except maybe the top quarter) and can really get a dead sound. Typically, I just keep a folded wool blanket in there on the bottom to damp internal reflections.

Of course, most people either skip the resonant head or use one with a hole, but the same basic techniques will work.

Spend your time getting the kick tone right. Then the recording and mixing are easy.

Cheers,

Otto
Old 27th December 2010
  #16
Lives for gear
 
DrFrankencopter's Avatar
This may sound trite...but that's not the intent.

Drum tuning/dampening, and beater treatment must be handled first. It's got to sound close in the room. Then choose the right mic, and put it in the right spot. How the drummer hits the kick makes a big difference. Next, work out some EQ. Figure out how the kick should interact with the bass (above, or below)...dial out any 'honk' or '', and support the fundamental you're looking for. Address the 'click' with EQ to taste.

I'm not a fan of compressors on kick. Sometimes I'll limit to keep the transients of the hits a bit more consistent.

Cheers

Kris
Old 27th December 2010
  #17
Lives for gear
 
DrFrankencopter's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ofajen View Post
The good news is that the room matters a bit less if you tune low enough, because the room will be mostly flat below the lowest room mode.
You must be working in some pretty small rooms, or with really big drums. The lowest room mode of my room is 27Hz IIRC...and it's not *that* big (25 ft long).

Cheers

Kris
Old 27th December 2010
  #18
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES View Post
The drums are recorded very well it is just that decay thing which is driving me nuts... I am happy with the sound of the kick.

There is woom on the end and this makes me r...
You can't be happy with the sound and simultaneously unhappy with the sound. The decay is part of the sound. Take care of it in "the real world" before you record it. Then it won't even exist in "the mixing world".
Old 27th December 2010
  #19
Lives for gear
I have fever problems with these things since I learnt to master multiband dynamics, SPL transient designer is awesome, but it works on the whole spectrum, and that might not be what you want...maybe you like the room tone or something and you just want to reduce low-end boom.

What you need to do if you cant re-record or whatever, the performance might be awesome but the kik is to boomy, is to put an expander on the low band.

This is easily done with for example, logic´s Multipressor. I prefer Waves c6. but if you dont have that, the multipressor will do fine..
It takes some tweaking to get it right, but it works many times..
I did a quick demonstration on how it might sound..this is done with Multipressor, obviously you don´t have to reduce just low end, you can reduce any frequencies´decay
Attached Files

BoomyKik.mp3 (514.2 KB, 74 views)

TighterKik.mp3 (514.2 KB, 71 views)

Old 27th December 2010
  #20
Lives for gear
 
turtlejon's Avatar
 

i believe izotope's alloy has a multiband transient shaper, which is basically worth the price of the plug alone....
but the real fix sounds to be in the instrument itself....
getting a kick right may be as tricky as any other single instrument i can think of... but it really sets the foundation of the "sound"
Old 27th December 2010
  #21
Lives for gear
 
audiogeek's Avatar
 

Kick drum i start to hate you!!

I don't believe it's been specified yet if this kick was mic'd inside or out. Kind of important info IMHO.

Where was the mic?
Old 27th December 2010
  #22
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES View Post
MHH

OK tried the most tags by you already before psoting....thanks for your help
The drums are recorded very well it is just that decay thing which is driving me nuts... I am happy with the sound of the kick.

There is woom on the end and this makes me r...

I tried to get it with a gate but even with lookahead I don't get the decay to cut off the way I want it.....

The lookahead is to make sure the first transient is not cut off. If you set the gate properly, you can have it shut as fast as you want - it can be so fast that it's just a click, if you want. As others have said, make sure the sound is on the kick track and is not resonating toms or compressed drum or room mics. Getting the sound right initially is best, but it sounds like you are mixing something that has already been recorded. Try the gate again. Do NOT compress the kick - that will make the problem much much worse.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
StratMatt22 / Rap + Hip Hop engineering and production
4
leopardots / Electronic Music Instruments and Electronic Music Production
4
jho / So much gear, so little time
16
soupking / So much gear, so little time
53

Forum Jump
Forum Jump