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room compresson Multi-Ef­fects Plugins
Old 26th December 2010
  #1
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mattsplace's Avatar
 

room compresson

Hi guys!
I would know if you have problems with room mics when drumers playing open hi-hat like that:
Royer Labs - Ross Hogarth

when i want compress hard the room the hi-hat always jump out in disgusting way! Is this advantage have Royers or Coles that sound very dark in that cases or you have other tricks (tracking hi-hat separately,..)?
Old 26th December 2010
  #2
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malaclypse's Avatar
i've just had this problem recently, and i think it was due to bad placement of the room mics on my part. i used fatheads for the rooms, and when i slammed them, the HH got really gnarly. i think i ended up notching out some of the offending frequencies. you gotta be careful, though because some of the snare lives in that freq region too, and you may not want to take too much away from there...
Old 26th December 2010
  #3
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rene-lemieux's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by malaclypse View Post
i've just had this problem recently, and i think it was due to bad placement of the room mics on my part. i used fatheads for the rooms, and when i slammed them, the HH got really gnarly. i think i ended up notching out some of the offending frequencies. you gotta be careful, though because some of the snare lives in that freq region too, and you may not want to take too much away from there...
^^^Same with me. solution, use your ears not your eyes... My senior engineer always has the wonkiest looking overhead setup, but never sounds bad... I often place my overheads to "look" right, and they sometimes come out sounding ****ty, and I need to notch them and de-ess them

I also am an overly adiv O/H limiter/smasher, this hurts when your recordings have to mush hi hatt (or even worse, dream ride cymbal )
Old 27th December 2010
  #4
SRS
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SRS's Avatar
 

room compresson

Keep your room mics a decent distance from the kit. That usually works. If not, turn the capsule facing away from the kit, or up or downward. Anything goes on room mics. Omni if available. Put them in a corner, in a hallway, in a closet, bathroom, anywhere you can think of. Taking the cymbals outta the picture on room mics is subjective, and can produce stellar results and also be very fun.
Old 27th December 2010
  #5
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bigbone's Avatar
 

Open Hi-hat doesn't mean loud hi-hat. in the video Kenny is playing a well balance kit. He play the hat open but not louder That's the secret.
Old 27th December 2010
  #6
The OP is talking about open hats jumping out when he compresses the room mics hard. Heavy compression will make the open hat pop out no matter how controlled the drummer is, or how well the room mic is placed. The dynamics will be altered - that's what compression does. The room mics in the video are not compressed.

The OP is asking if using ribbon mics will prevent this because of their dark response. My experience has been that they do not prevent it because they are not actually that dark when placed at a distance. Ribbon's reputation for darkness stems mostly from their pronounced proximity effect, which begins at 6 feet away. Place them over 6 feet away and they are not very dark sounding. With ribbons distance = EQ. Just listen to the soloed ribbons in the video; not that dark. A 414B-ULS would sound about as dark placed the same way.

To answer the OP's question - when I want a heavily compressed room sound I mercilessly cut highs with EQ, no matter what mic's I'm using. When mixed with the overheads and close mics this adds nice body and glue to the kit, and gives that exploding sound to the drums.

I have tried using ribbons, placing the mics near the floor, pointing at walls, mid-side, spaced, mono, name it. When heavily compressed that damn open hat will always pop out. So will crashes. Sometimes in life you just gotta EQ...

I would not recommend recording the hi hat separately - if you wanted a sound like that, why use room mics in the first place?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsplace View Post
Hi guys!
I would know if you have problems with room mics when drumers playing open hi-hat like that:
Royer Labs - Ross Hogarth

when i want compress hard the room the hi-hat always jump out in disgusting way! Is this advantage have Royers or Coles that sound very dark in that cases or you have other tricks (tracking hi-hat separately,..)?
Old 27th December 2010
  #7
Gear Addict
 
mattsplace's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx View Post
The OP is talking about open hats jumping out when he compresses the room mics hard. Heavy compression will make the open hat pop out no matter how controlled the drummer is, or how well the room mic is placed. The dynamics will be altered - that's what compression does. The room mics in the video are not compressed.

The OP is asking if using ribbon mics will prevent this because of their dark response. My experience has been that they do not prevent it because they are not actually that dark when placed at a distance. Ribbon's reputation for darkness stems mostly from their pronounced proximity effect, which begins at 6 feet away. Place them over 6 feet away and they are not very dark sounding. With ribbons distance = EQ. Just listen to the soloed ribbons in the video; not that dark. A 414B-ULS would sound about as dark placed the same way.


To answer the OP's question - when I want a heavily compressed room sound I mercilessly cut highs with EQ, no matter what mic's I'm using. When mixed with the overheads and close mics this adds nice body and glue to the kit, and gives that exploding sound to the drums.

I have tried using ribbons, placing the mics near the floor, pointing at walls, mid-side, spaced, mono, name it. When heavily compressed that damn open hat will always pop out. So will crashes. Sometimes in life you just gotta EQ...

I would not recommend recording the hi hat separately - if you wanted a sound like that, why use room mics in the first place?

Yes in the royer video the rooms mics are not compressed or not compressed that much...
In my case that happen only when i try to smash the room (with a germanium compressor), when i need that hall pumping drums! usually this track sounding awsome when the drumer playing with closed hihat - The snare seems real big with all that punch and sustain i need an the same is with the kick! Once the drummer start to playin on open hat the track decomposes! The snare, kick does not sound like it should...

And sorry yeah sorry for my bad english!
Old 27th December 2010
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

room compresson

I had this problem a couple of times and finally a fellow engineer recommended cutting highs. Not enough to majorly affect the snare but enough to get rid of the harshness. Also, cut the highs before you compress so you aren't compressing what you don't want.


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Old 27th December 2010
  #9
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Try LDC's for overheads from over the drummer's shoulders, and work on placement so that the whole kit responds to aggressive compression, not just the hat.
Old 27th December 2010
  #10
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Aaron Miller's Avatar
I've found having a quality, soft (sounding) hihat indespensible. For most drummers, I swap mine for whatever they bring in. Of course if the drummer is really killing the hat, nothing works 100% except notching out those frequencies. If the drummer is legit and I use my hat, then this isn't necessary regardless of the mic. I usually use an R-121 about 25 ft back, positioned so the null point is facing the brightest sounding area of the room. If done well, there's no need for notching.

In my opinion the important things in order are:

Player
Hihat (a quiet one)
Room
Mic position (how far back you can get it)
Mic
Old 27th December 2010
  #11
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johndykstra's Avatar
 

+1 for HF cut eq and a parallel compression circuit.
Old 27th December 2010
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
I've found having a quality, soft (sounding) hihat indespensible. For most drummers, I swap mine for whatever they bring in. Of course if the drummer is really killing the hat, nothing works 100% except notching out those frequencies. If the drummer is legit and I use my hat, then this isn't necessary regardless of the mic. I usually use an R-121 about 25 ft back, positioned so the null point is facing the brightest sounding area of the room. If done well, there's no need for notching.

In my opinion the important things in order are:

Player
Hihat (a quiet one)
Room
Mic position (how far back you can get it)
Mic
Yes, I too bought a nice sounding quieter set of hats for loud drummers to use. Everything you said helps a lot under normal conditions, but when you smash the room mic(s) with heavy compression it will still get nasty. There's just no avoiding it.

An alternative to compression is to use a Transient Designer to create sustain without affecting dynamics. thumbsup

.
Old 27th December 2010
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by KHilbert View Post
I had this problem a couple of times and finally a fellow engineer recommended cutting highs. Not enough to majorly affect the snare but enough to get rid of the harshness. Also, cut the highs before you compress so you aren't compressing what you don't want.
I used to do it that way because of the same logic, but now I actually get better results EQing after compressing. 'Seems counter-intuitive, but it sounds better, especially if I want to boost a little low end in the room mics. 'Best to experiment with this in your own set-up.

I often do cut enough highs to majorly affect the snare because it's the only way to get the nasty hat/cymbal ring out. There is still plenty of highs in the OHs and close mics, so I don't miss it. This is something that has to be finessed differently for each drummer/kit.

.
Old 27th December 2010
  #14
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DrFrankencopter's Avatar
It's gonna depend alot on the overall sound of the room. If there's not much damping at high freqs, they're going to build up...especially if the drummer is mashing away at only semi closed hats. Maybe some room tuning is in order...or a replacement drummer.

The next time I mic a kit, my room mic strategy is going to be using a fig-8 mic (probably a U87, but maybe an RCA 77) with the null facing the kit. I want less of the direct sound, and more 'room'.

Cheers

Kris
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