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How were drum samples handled in the 80' and 90's Drum Machines & Samplers
Old 24th December 2010
  #31
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Beyersound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slap Back View Post
Just as a jumping off point...metallica is what I'm most familiar with. The drums on Load and Reload are sick and tight; not squashed to death and very organic sounding (IMO). I'd really like to know specifically how it was done, considering the great quality. Ive heard that some of their 80's stuff used samples too, so ditto on that as well..

Thanks for the many replies. That gives me lots of research to do.
Actually "And Justice For All" had no outside samples, and as far as I know no sampling of his kit used either. This is straight from the guy who mixed it, I had actually engineered something for him on another artists's record. We had a conversation about how the drums were mixed on AJFA when he came out to visit us on the tour for that album. Their other 80s stuff I don't know about.
Old 25th December 2010
  #32
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Slap Back's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyersound View Post
Actually "And Justice For All" had no outside samples, and as far as I know no sampling of his kit used either. This is straight from the guy who mixed it, I had actually engineered something for him on another artists's record. We had a conversation about how the drums were mixed on AJFA when he came out to visit us on the tour for that album. Their other 80s stuff I don't know about.
Thanks for this. Would you be able to share the details of your conversation regarding the mixing of the AJFA drums? I'm dying to know!
Old 25th December 2010
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winey View Post
The Wendel. Some of the bigshots in LA around late 80's early 90's seemed to be using it.
I remember it working quite well actually.
A certain engineer for a late night tv show still uses a Wendel. If you have listened to a band perform on the show you have likely heard the Wendel.
Old 25th December 2010
  #34
Old 25th December 2010
  #35
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Producers and artist in the early 80's would also use this unit the Roland sampler, here is a link Roland S550 - Another early classic 12-bit Roland sampler from the 80's - The S550 is basicaly an S330 with double . I know of an cd I have by a group called Moev(netwerk records) did an album and when I heard it I thought it had the most brilliant drum sound . What they did was actually sample a drum kit a each sampler had a drum sample , Kik for one , snare for another , then they would program that and Overdub real hats and cymbal crashes . It was basically the original way of doing drum replacemtn , or programming drums with what we have today in Toontrack . Here is the video of the band It was all tracked on a fostex B-16 as well .This was done in 1988 . YouTube - Moev - Yeah, Whatever [Official Music Video]

This brings back memories bigtime for me ! I actually started a band with the singer (Dean Russel) around 92 which was short lived and he sadly passed away around 95. Alot of the bands in Vancouver were on Netwerk records and pretty much used the same techniques of recording stuff . I remebr around 1988 as being an exciting time as teenager with production and sounds hitting the next step in quality . Back then we called it the alternative music scene . Now we have 100 sub styles - lol
Old 26th December 2010
  #36
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How were drum samples handled in the 80' and 90's

Oh lord.... Piezo triggers on live drums as voltage gates to midi converters driving midi samplers (mostly Akai and Emu) which were recorded / printed to tape with the live performance and layered during mixing.... and it was done a lot on rock / metal records, even if no one is admitting it now or then.

As for having parts replayed / fixed without telling the band don't tell L7... Oooops...
Old 26th December 2010
  #37
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BrianW's Avatar
 

Old 26th December 2010
  #38
Gear Maniac
 

Wow,this question brought back some memories! Here's how we used to do it. Gate the drum heavily with a very short hold and release times so we'd get a really short 'blip'. Feed the 'blip' to a trigger input on an Alesis D4, Midi out to Cubase on an Atari 1040, SMPTE sync'ed to the 2". We'd run the track, looking at the recorded note sequence, making sure to delete any false triggers and writing in any missed triggers. Bit of a pain. Then, manually, we'd move the all the notes to compensate for the delay. Route the sequence to the Sampler of choice (in our case either an S950, S1000, or the very underrated Roland S750) and the samples return to individual channels on the desk. Easy, if you had half a day to spare. You young whippernappers..... etc etc. etc.heh
Old 26th December 2010
  #39
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It was mainly the AMS like people mentioned. Fairlight (peter Gabriel Security 1980 only a 60K machine), N.E.D. Synclavier (Zappa) was probably the most popular if you had 100K to spend on the system! N.E.D. stands for New England Digital for those who weren't even born back then.

I used Emulators (1984) out in the Bay Area as well as the Roland S50 when it came out (1986... I still have it and yes it still works, 12bit!)

Ensoniq Mirage was another popular affordable one that came out back then, horrible to find the loop points on. Horrible sound, used on a lot of records.

I also had a delta labs unit that could sample 16 seconds back in 1980 (a long time back then) but you would manually "on the fly" have to try and replace anything... what a PITA... but doable!

Truth be told in the 80's there wasn't a lot of replacement via samplers. You either "punched" the problem area, edited with a razor blade in a new section in or used the mute button to get rid of the problem.

Performance was still "King"... unlike today where with some songs, you can even tell if a human being even played any of the music... read "boring"!
Old 27th December 2010
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
I also had a delta labs unit that could sample 16 seconds back in 1980 (a long time back then) but you would manually "on the fly" have to try and replace anything
CE-1700?
Old 27th December 2010
  #41
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Flying_Dutchman's Avatar
 

maybe funny, but the old way still works imo
i´ll record death metal tomorrow and ill put D4 to BD an mics to anything else
Transient Designer on Toms,Snare, cymbals each one a mic (+ room)
still works, still the best way imo
organic + realistic sound
if i listen to deicide and it was done long before i started recording on my own
i did maybe 30-50 FOH jobs this year, all with BD to D4 or TD12/20
i also did some gigs with triggers only and ddrum or whatever, but it sounds like cheating and plastic
i did some records with triggers only, but they arent organic and real imo, well, released, but there is a trend to this plastic sounds i dont love, ok, each to his own
the cymbals have to be real at least, or it sounds fake (it´s ok to to layer cymbals underneath imo) imo too ^^
the faster the music is, the more unrealistic the samples get
i could get away with modern rock/metal (thats not really fast) and samples, but when it´s time for grind and blast beats it´s not cool to use a sampled snare imo
on many pro rock albums you hear the sample problems on the snare rolls imo.. but is this important? well??
also it´s harder for me to get the drums sounding like a unit with samples only
well it´s just different, better? each to his own
peace
have fun
Old 27th December 2010
  #42
Gear Head
 

An interesting tid-bit regarding 'drum-looping' in the 70's and the recording of Stay'n Alive.

CLASSIC TRACKS: The Bee Gees Stayin' Alive

"We were able to get a 4/4 beat out of the Hammond, but when Barry played along to it we didn't like the result," says Richardson. "Then Albhy and I came up with the idea of finding two bars [of real drums] that really felt good and making an eternal tape loop." In fact, the engineer's initial intention had been to take two bars of the four-track drums from 'Night Fever', re-record these about 100 times and then splice them together in order to create a new track. It was only while he, Galuten and the band listened and listened and listened to the song over the Auratones in order to find the best couple of bars that Richardson then decided to copy these onto the half-inch tape of an MCI four-track machine and create the aforementioned loop.

"The drums from 'Night Fever' basically consisted of two bars at 30ips," he says. "The tape was over 20 feet long and it was running all around the control room — I gaffered some empty tape-box hubs to the tops of mic stands and ran the tape between the four-track machine and an MCI 24-track deck, using the tape guides from a two-track deck for the tension. Because it was 4/4 time — just hi-hats and straight snare — it sounded steady as a rock, and this was pre-drum machine. For the tempo I used the varispeed on the MCI four-track, so the drums that ended up on the 24-track were at least third-generation, and because the tape heads were so badly worn I brightened the tracks that were already Dolby A-encoded with high-end EQ from the API console."

The drum loop would go on to have quite a career in its own right, serving as the backbone to not only the 'Stayin' Alive' and 'More Than A Woman', but also Barbra Streisand's 'Woman In Love'.
Old 27th December 2010
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARIEL View Post
Producers and artist in the early 80's would also use this unit the Roland sampler, here is a link Roland S550 - Another early classic 12-bit Roland sampler from the 80's - The S550 is basicaly an S330 with double . I know of an cd I have by a group called Moev(netwerk records) did an album and when I heard it I thought it had the most brilliant drum sound . What they did was actually sample a drum kit a each sampler had a drum sample , Kik for one , snare for another , then they would program that and Overdub real hats and cymbal crashes . It was basically the original way of doing drum replacemtn , or programming drums with what we have today in Toontrack . Here is the video of the band It was all tracked on a fostex B-16 as well .This was done in 1988 . YouTube - Moev - Yeah, Whatever [Official Music Video]

This brings back memories bigtime for me ! I actually started a band with the singer (Dean Russel) around 92 which was short lived and he sadly passed away around 95. Alot of the bands in Vancouver were on Netwerk records and pretty much used the same techniques of recording stuff . I remebr around 1988 as being an exciting time as teenager with production and sounds hitting the next step in quality . Back then we called it the alternative music scene . Now we have 100 sub styles - lol
good stuff - midi wasn't really introduced in new product lines till about 1984? 1985?

I remember the first Korg and Roland lines w/ Midi (I Think) were the Poly61M, Poly800, DW8000 and from Roland wasn't it the Juno106? Ensoniq Mirage was about the same time 1985/1986?

anyway... once there was midi, things got a bit more exciting fast due the standardization spec.
Old 27th December 2010
  #44
The original way of doing drum replacement was actually to use sampling delay units like the AMS. I first saw this around 1981/82.
Then the Forat came along.
Then in the late 80's a ton of producers started to hire Fairlight and Synclavier programmers.
Old 27th December 2010
  #45
Gear Addict
 

A dam good drum room
Old 27th December 2010
  #46
The SDE 3000 with the sampling mod was popular as well... and you could set up 2 units and it would switch hits between them to vary the sample.

Rail
Old 28th December 2010
  #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The original way of doing drum replacement was actually to use sampling delay units like the AMS. I first saw this around 1981/82.
Then the Forat came along.
Then in the late 80's a ton of producers started to hire Fairlight and Synclavier programmers.
control voltage triggers prior to midi, right?
Old 28th December 2010
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
A lot of people used the AMS 1580.

Some people used the Akai S1000 or the SPX 90 in a pinch. Also for a time there was a Forat F-16 around as well.
Akai S900 had the trigger inputs on it before the S950 and later 1000 - the 900 was released in 1986... not sure how heavily used it was for drum replacement, but EVERY synthpop or industrial band had a small pile of S-series samplers.
Old 28th December 2010
  #49
Gear Head
 

def know a guy that used an alesis unit on my old music when i was a teenager.. ( i would assume this was a big early 90's thing based on the fact that my friend's last pro engineering days were around that time)

also heard of the snare drum reamp technique (a more organic approach I guess? lol) fun stuff...
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