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Advice for a relatively new engineer. Dynamics Plugins
Old 20th December 2010
  #1
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Advice for a relatively new engineer.

Hey guys, I'm just looking for a bit of advice from you guys.

I was wondering if anybody could give me a bit of advice on approaching studios for jobs. I have already tried sending CV's and letters but i feel that i'm getting nowhere with it. Any suggestions??

Last edited by DanDaMan; 20th December 2010 at 09:18 PM.. Reason: Wanted to re-word it.
Old 20th December 2010
  #2
Gear Addict
 

Do some work for free with whatever equipment you can get your hands on. Build up a portfolio. You'll be lucky to get a job with no experience/portfolio behind you.
Old 21st December 2010
  #3
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadsweeper View Post
Do some work for free with whatever equipment you can get your hands on. Build up a portfolio. You'll be lucky to get a job with no experience/portfolio behind you.
Agreed...Although, I wouldn't go so far as to say "work for free." You will end up hating yourself. Price according to your experience and gear quality. When I first started doing it to make a few extra bucks (a few months ago...July I think), I was doing it for $50 a song. I've got a guy I'm STILL working with, trying to finish up his album. I've poured HOURS of work into it so far, far more than $50 worth. But, I did my absolute best with all the projects I started with, built up a decent portfolio with some quality work, and am now charging $200 a day or $100 for half a day. And, I've been keeping busy.

Like anything else, do a good job at a good value and be a good guy (or gal) and you'll have work.
Old 21st December 2010
  #4
Gear Nut
 

great advice hossman
Old 22nd December 2010
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadsweeper View Post
Do some work for free with whatever equipment you can get your hands on. Build up a portfolio. You'll be lucky to get a job with no experience/portfolio behind you.
That's the thing, I have got some experience behind me, but no one still wants to take me on Thanks for the replys though guys, means a lot heh
Old 22nd December 2010
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDaMan View Post
Hey guys, I 'm just looking for a bit of advice from you guys.

I was wondering if anybody could give me a bit of advice on approaching studios for jobs. I have already tried sending CV's and letters but i feel that i'm getting nowhere with it. Any suggestions??
Read the CV back to yourself and ask 'what would they have to gain, against the cost of employing me'.

If it's a one studio place, and they have a full time owner/engineer, what would he gain out of employing you? He'd still be there all day, as it's his workplace, and in the age of DAW studios, there's really nothing for a second person to do. So he'd be paying for somebody to get in the way. 'Make tea'? Yeah right. A daily rate of $120 can pay for an all singing all dancing tea and coffee machine and a stock of cardboard cups. And those don't get in the way and pester you for mixing advice whilst you're working with a client.

Studios are no different to any other job in the world. They will only employ people if work needs doing, they can't just be charity cases and employ you in a studio because it's fun. If they do the work themselves, there's no need to pay somebody else just to sit about and watch.

So before asking a studio and sending a CV, have a look at their website and ask yourself these questions questions:
1) Is there work that needs doing? If no, look elsewhere. If Yes...
2) Is there anybody currently doing that work? If yes, look elsewhere. If no...
3) Is there sufficient budget in the price-per-day to pay for somebody to do that? If no, look elsewhere. If yes...
4) Am I capable of doing that work? If no, look elsewhere. If yes...
5) Am I going to be the best person for that job in the area, or can I bring something genuinely unique to the job? If no, look elsewhere. If yes, then send them a letter or phone call saying 'I think I could do this for you. Could you accommodate that?' and leave it there. Don't mention money or hours. Just offer to do what you've spotted. If they can, and want to, pay you; they will talk about it in due course.

That is the long hard way.

The simpler way is to realise that there is really no employment in studios. It's all freelance. And the people you're best freelancing to are bands. But try and build a relationship with a studio. Use the same place every time. Not only will you learn the sound, but you will also get to know the owner and the setup. Then when he gets asked to do a tour, that's when you might see 2 months in the studio as an employee. Because you're a regular and you know the place. And the more you do, the more he'll let you do, and the relationship will blossom and you will get more and more out of it. Then you'll have a much richer CV, and can move back to square 1, just square 1 with bigger bands and bigger studios. And it goes round in circles until either you are Head Engineer at Abbey Road or you realise it's going nowhere and retire to become a farmer.
Old 22nd December 2010
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealbigd View Post
Read the CV back to yourself and ask 'what would they have to gain, against the cost of employing me'.

If it's a one studio place, and they have a full time owner/engineer, what would he gain out of employing you? He'd still be there all day, as it's his workplace, and in the age of DAW studios, there's really nothing for a second person to do. So he'd be paying for somebody to get in the way. 'Make tea'? Yeah right. A daily rate of $120 can pay for an all singing all dancing tea and coffee machine and a stock of cardboard cups. And those don't get in the way and pester you for mixing advice whilst you're working with a client.

Studios are no different to any other job in the world. They will only employ people if work needs doing, they can't just be charity cases and employ you in a studio because it's fun. If they do the work themselves, there's no need to pay somebody else just to sit about and watch.

So before asking a studio and sending a CV, have a look at their website and ask yourself these questions questions:
1) Is there work that needs doing? If no, look elsewhere. If Yes...
2) Is there anybody currently doing that work? If yes, look elsewhere. If no...
3) Is there sufficient budget in the price-per-day to pay for somebody to do that? If no, look elsewhere. If yes...
4) Am I capable of doing that work? If no, look elsewhere. If yes...
5) Am I going to be the best person for that job in the area, or can I bring something genuinely unique to the job? If no, look elsewhere. If yes, then send them a letter or phone call saying 'I think I could do this for you. Could you accommodate that?' and leave it there. Don't mention money or hours. Just offer to do what you've spotted. If they can, and want to, pay you; they will talk about it in due course.

That is the long hard way.

The simpler way is to realise that there is really no employment in studios. It's all freelance. And the people you're best freelancing to are bands. But try and build a relationship with a studio. Use the same place every time. Not only will you learn the sound, but you will also get to know the owner and the setup. Then when he gets asked to do a tour, that's when you might see 2 months in the studio as an employee. Because you're a regular and you know the place. And the more you do, the more he'll let you do, and the relationship will blossom and you will get more and more out of it. Then you'll have a much richer CV, and can move back to square 1, just square 1 with bigger bands and bigger studios. And it goes round in circles until either you are Head Engineer at Abbey Road or you realise it's going nowhere and retire to become a farmer.
Aaahhh, thank you bigd heh Means a lot, I suppose the question should be "how do you get into freelancing e.g. what is the right way to approach bands to get work"? Thanks again bigd :D
Old 23rd December 2010
  #8
Registered User
Business is business, and people are people. Stating the obvious - but people in the music business are not significantly different from people in any other business. This is a busy, stressed industry, and the basic things that either attract or repel people will determine if you get noticed at all, and if so - whether that is positive or negative for you.

Sending a letter or a CD? Good luck with that. You are competing will all the professionally designed junk mail for a start. You would have to be VERY creative to stand out or even get noticed. Do you have some very artistic friends willing to help you out?

If visiting in person - you would have to make sure you met the decision makers. Basic things like personal hygiene; dressing appropriately for the gig; appropriate use of humour ... first impressions always count. Are you going to come across as somebody with much to offer them, or as some loose cannon troublemaker on the take?

Read Dale Carnegie "How to win friends and influence people" - it's an old classic full of basic common sense, but most people don't have basic common sense. You can find the full text on the internet fairly easy - and especially if you are from the "me generation", you might find that this is all new information that will pay off MASSIVELY if you actually understand and absorb the basic principles ...

Realistically - looking for a rewarding & lucrative career in the recording industry is about as reasonable as looking for a rewarding & lucrative career playing poker. It can be done, for certain rare individuals, but maybe there are better options out there for you ...
Old 23rd December 2010
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDaMan View Post
I suppose the question should be "how do you get into freelancing e.g. what is the right way to approach bands to get work"?
Go to shows, meet bands and offer them great deals. Give them samples of your work.

Post fliers at rehearsal studios.

Make sure that every client ends up with a product they love, and feels they got a bargain. Make the sessions fun. Repeat business and referrals are by far the biggest sources of work in this business.

.
Old 23rd December 2010
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealbigd View Post
But try and build a relationship with a studio. Use the same place every time. Not only will you learn the sound, but you will also get to know the owner and the setup. Then when he gets asked to do a tour, that's when you might see 2 months in the studio as an employee. Because you're a regular and you know the place. And the more you do, the more he'll let you do, and the relationship will blossom and you will get more and more out of it. Then you'll have a much richer CV, and can move back to square 1, just square 1 with bigger bands and bigger studios. And it goes round in circles until either you are Head Engineer at Abbey Road or you realise it's going nowhere and retire to become a farmer.
Please forgive me, I'm VERY new to this whole industry, but how exactly would I build a relationship with a studio??
Old 23rd December 2010
  #11
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studiostuff's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDaMan View Post
Please forgive me, I'm VERY new to this whole industry, but how exactly would I build a relationship with a studio??
(1) Get a cost-effective mobile recording rig
(2) Offer to record band's shows and rehearsals dirt-cheap
(3) Build that business to a point where you can begin to charge a little more
(4) Begin to take bands to your target studio for things that matter; drums, strings...etc
(5) Begin to take bands who can afford it to your target studio for as much as the budget will allow
(6) Do this for a while and you may become part of the regular crew at the studio... by regular crew I mean part of the crowd that is there all the time working on their own and each other's stuff
(7) And then, like a previous poster has suggested... if you're good and friendly and cool and dependable and all the rest, you'll get a shot when what you do great is needed by the owners of the studio.

Easy...!
Old 23rd December 2010
  #12
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Thank you soooooo much guys, you cannot possibly believe how grateful I am for all your help!! heh
Old 23rd December 2010
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDaMan View Post
Please forgive me, I'm VERY new to this whole industry, but how exactly would I build a relationship with a studio??
It's the music business, and business relationships are built through commerce. Bringing in paying clients to a studio is the best way to build a relationship. You provide the engineer and the artist while the studio provides the rooms and the gear - that's a good business relationship. Anything else is just you asking them for a favor. You have to bring something to the table. It's challenging, but it's fun!

.
Old 23rd December 2010
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx View Post
It's the music business, and business relationships are built through commerce. Bringing in paying clients to a studio is the best way to build a relationship. You provide the engineer and the artist while the studio provides the rooms and the gear - that's a good business relationship. Anything else is just you asking them for a favor. You have to bring something to the table. It's challenging, but it's fun!

.
Cheers Trakworx heh Your help is much appreciated!!
Old 23rd December 2010
  #15
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Madestew's Avatar
 

The days of coming out of college and getting a job in a music studio (unless you own it) are over. But the days of being an asset will never go away...

If you really want to work in a major music studio, you're going to have to work for nothing...literally. You're going to sweep, and vacuum, and make runs...and IF you are allowed to be in a session, you're going to have to be MUTE. Then maybe...after months of this, they may let you tinker as an asst...and then MAYBE, after you've built relationships with bands etc. like other posters have stated, the owner will let you do a late night session (when they have no other clients working) and you BETTER NOT thhehrow a party...and after consitently bringing in business when the owner usually is making zero...you, because you've built relationships, tell them "Hey I'm moving on to my own setup..." which you had zero intention of doing...then you'll have become an asset...and THEN...you'll have a job.
Old 25th December 2010
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madestew View Post
and after consitently bringing in business when the owner usually is making zero...you, because you've built relationships, tell them "Hey I'm moving on to my own setup..." which you had zero intention of doing...then you'll have become an asset...and THEN...you'll have a job.

I can understand what you're saying, but what happens if I said that I want to go to my own setup, and instead of being an asset, they just turn around and say "on yer bike", wouldn't I just be out of a job at that particular studio??
Old 25th December 2010
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDaMan View Post
I can understand what you're saying, but what happens if I said that I want to go to my own setup, and instead of being an asset, they just turn around and say "on yer bike", wouldn't I just be out of a job at that particular studio??
Then you obviously haven't brought in enough business for him to NEED you haha...little black and white there...but yeh i can see where you're coming from...its a game of risk, sometimes you just have to play the game...but in reality, if you've spent a few months there, bringing in business and what not, and the owner didn't bite when you said you were going to leave...your time is probably best spent at another studio anyway, if you don't get a bite by then, you probably won't get one with that particular person...and if you're doing it all for free anyway, its not like you're losing anything...you just gotta go to another studio and try again.
Old 25th December 2010
  #18
.

I think everyone who posts a response in this thread should have a track record in their sig to show proof of success.

I'm not trying to be a dick, I just think you have to be REALLY careful who you're taking advice from.

NEWFLASH: MOST of the people you'll be hearing advice from here, are EXACTLY like you.

There's no magic formula.

Do what you love. Work hard. Network. And do unto others (Golden Rule).

...And have a kickass business plan, and/or kickass business partner.

SOMEBODY's got to pay attention to keeping the lights on, paying off your student loans, and building toward a successful future.

After all, as much as we hate to admit it, it's not ALL about the knobs and lights heh

Good luck, man - and Happy Holidays.


EDIT: The music industry is tough, and like most here, you likely will not make a living doing it.

but you only have one life - and you want to make damn sure you enjoy it, without ending up homeless.

.
Old 25th December 2010
  #19
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqye View Post
.

I think everyone who posts a response in this thread should have a track record in their sig to show proof of success.

I'm not trying to be a dick, I just think you have to be REALLY careful who you're taking advice from.

NEWFLASH: MOST of the people you'll be hearing advice from here, are EXACTLY like you.

There's no magic formula.

Do what you love. Work hard. Network. And do unto others (Golden Rule).

...And have a kickass business plan, and/or kickass business partner.

SOMEBODY's got to pay attention to keeping the lights on, paying off your student loans, and building toward a successful future.

After all, as much as we hate to admit it, it's not ALL about the knobs and lights heh

Good luck, man - and Happy Holidays.


EDIT: The music industry is tough, and like most here, you likely will not make a living doing it.

but you only have one life - and you want to make damn sure you enjoy it, without ending up homeless.

.
I guess i can see your point here...i've got my own studio that i record local acts at, but my main occupation is a student completing a double maths major...however my advice stems from a very close friend who did exactly what i mentioned in this thread. Sure, he's not huge right now...but its only been 8 months...thats not really that long in the industry...the contacts he's made so far though from it are great...its all about building up a name for yourself within the industry. A studio might hire you completely based on hearsay if they've heard you're a good guy to work with, and you work hard etc etc...

How did my mate start working for this studio? We literally just hung around there for a few months hiring out a room once a week, and made conversation with the owner. When it came Christmas time, we'd buy him a case of beer. In the early days, he also had it running as a rehearsal studio, since he was also a live engineer, he'd be doing gigs and what not when he wasn't recording people, and one day he accidentally double booked. Sent out a message to everyone he knew, me and my mate replied straight away, he gave us the keys to the studio and we looked after it for the night for him. He even paid us for it. When we rehearsed there, we asked for the vacuum cleaner after a session because my mate (he's a drummer) would just carve his sticks up all over the carpet...we'd clean up after ourselves and leave the room spotless so he didn't have to do it. One day when he was renovating the upstairs, we both turned up and just started helping.

This was obviously over a few months, what did we get out of it? Well my mate works there now, and has been for the last 8 months. Since i wasn't really looking to work at the studio, i was more building a contact (because he's good), i get mates rates if i want him to record my band, and both me and my mate get free access to his neve desk and protools HD rig.

So you see, while i don't personally work at a studio myself...what i've said does have SOME merit...but this is in Australia mind you, a carton of beer down here goes a LONG way...

The guy who owns the studio is Ryan Hazel, does some pretty good stuff, recorded this in the studio for sony:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEMd5Hyz3vY

My mate got to sit in the room while they were recording this...this video makes the room look a hell of a lot bigger though haha...
Old 25th December 2010
  #20
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DanDaMan's Avatar
 

Cheers guys heh Keep the advice coming, the more the better.
Old 25th December 2010
  #21
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Just noticed you're from England, so probably take the stuff with a grain of salt, its not the same everywhere...try to suss out some of the smaller newer studio's first, and just hang around and talk to people as much as you can. The bigger places generally go straight on reputation, whereas you build up your rep by doing this sorta stuff at smaller newer studios (where they would actually need and/or appreciate someone just offering them a hand). It's all about meeting people...oddly enough more so than it is about your skills when you're at the bottom
Old 25th December 2010
  #22
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tomgahagan's Avatar
 

Take all advice with a grain of salt.
Old 25th December 2010
  #23
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DanDaMan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson89 View Post
Just noticed you're from England, so probably take the stuff with a grain of salt, its not the same everywhere...try to suss out some of the smaller newer studio's first, and just hang around and talk to people as much as you can. The bigger places generally go straight on reputation, whereas you build up your rep by doing this sorta stuff at smaller newer studios (where they would actually need and/or appreciate someone just offering them a hand). It's all about meeting people...oddly enough more so than it is about your skills when you're at the bottom
Hmmmm.... You've kinda burst my bubble by saying that :D. I have got a few months experience in a small studio under my belt, would that count for anything??

Going back to what someone said in an earlier post, is it possible to just email/ring these studios up and ask if I can freelance in their studio, or is it done by invitation only?


Here is the earlier post: "It's the music business, and business relationships are built through commerce. Bringing in paying clients to a studio is the best way to build a relationship. You provide the engineer and the artist while the studio provides the rooms and the gear - that's a good business relationship. Anything else is just you asking them for a favor. You have to bring something to the table. It's challenging, but it's fun!"

Cheers heh
Old 25th December 2010
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDaMan View Post
Going back to what someone said in an earlier post, is it possible to just email/ring these studios up and ask if I can freelance in their studio, or is it done by invitation only?

Cheers heh
If you bring the money, which is what you're doing when you bring your clients to the studio, thats all thats needed. Basically you book the room and charge your fee on top. Some studios will give you a cheaper rate if you are booking the room only, without a house engineer.
Old 25th December 2010
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenlotus View Post
If you bring the money, which is what you're doing when you bring your clients to the studio, thats all thats needed. Basically you book the room and charge your fee on top. Some studios will give you a cheaper rate if you are booking the room only, without a house engineer.
Coooooool, cheers man, that's great!!! Keep the advice coming people, I need to know as much as I possibly need to know about all this stuff heh
Old 25th December 2010
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenlotus View Post
If you bring the money, which is what you're doing when you bring your clients to the studio, thats all thats needed. Basically you book the room and charge your fee on top. Some studios will give you a cheaper rate if you are booking the room only, without a house engineer.
Yes. Basically, you ARE a client to the studio. You are bringing them business. That makes them treat you entirely differently than if you are apprenticing for them.

When an outside engineer first works in my studio I always make them pay for the studio plus my time for at least the first few hours in order to get them up to speed with my set-up. After that they get the studio-only rate.

.
Old 25th December 2010
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx View Post
Yes. Basically, you ARE a client to the studio. You are bringing them business. That makes them treat you entirely differently than if you are apprenticing for them.

When an outside engineer first works in my studio I always make them pay for the studio plus my time for at least the first few hours in order to get them up to speed with my set-up. After that they get the studio-only rate.

.
That's pretty normal and the OP should expect it (and IMO, ask for it. Very few studios work without their own little 'individual' ways of doing things, no 2 are really the same. It's ALWAYS good to find out where the best place to sit is, where stuff is patched, what isn't patched in, etc.

As I was saying here (or somewhere else, can't remember), if you choose that method, use the same studio every time. You will then get to know the staff there, and once you're a recognised face there, chat to them a bit, make suggestions, offer to give them a hand with stuff etc - essentially try to integrate yourself a bit. Then if the owner has to go touring for a month or something, your name will be right up there to take the sessions whilst he's away. That's how I ended up working, was simply through getting to know the bosses at the studios I used the most.
Old 26th December 2010
  #28
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DanDaMan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson89 View Post
Just noticed you're from England, so probably take the stuff with a grain of salt, its not the same everywhere...try to suss out some of the smaller newer studio's first, and just hang around and talk to people as much as you can. The bigger places generally go straight on reputation, whereas you build up your rep by doing this sorta stuff at smaller newer studios (where they would actually need and/or appreciate someone just offering them a hand). It's all about meeting people...oddly enough more so than it is about your skills when you're at the bottom
Already done work experience in a smaller studio. That's the reason I'm trying to take the next step heh I can see what you're saying though.
Old 30th December 2010
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post

Sending a letter or a CD? Good luck with that. You are competing will all the professionally designed junk mail for a start. You would have to be VERY creative to stand out or even get noticed. Do you have some very artistic friends willing to help you out?

I have applied to a studio and I did get a reply. It was a rejection letter, but I got a response nonetheless.
Old 30th December 2010
  #30
Lives for gear
FreeLance is where most money is going to come from right now:

When you do charge charge right! It's very easy to charge 50-100 for a song thinking, awesome I could really use this money and that sounds fare. Only to be dragged through the trenches months later trying to make the client happy. Most people will want something cheap, mostly the younger kids and you might even think your price is a tad steep...Wel,l after you've been around the block you will find out in no way is it! Most people think you record them and spend maybe a hour mixing, but that is far from the truth. I start out with a base charge of $200 a song no matter what it is. Sometimes take it lower to $175 if it's very bare bones. If they work fast I sometimes let a 2nd or 3rd simple song in there given there is a good amount of time on the clock. I think that is even cheap with experience,high end gear and in some cases programing and writing midi for the song.

You have to at least figure a normal no degree job would pay $250 a week. If you charge say $100 for one song it can easly turn into 3+ sessions or more and 2 weeks depedning on the band and that comes out very bad. Usually 1-3 songs a day can be average for a band that has it together.I go by the hour if after I mix and make small fixes they still want to work on it or if they are not happy with their own preformance...Having this issue now with a girl who loves the quality, but her own dad said she can do better so she wants to re-record. Problem is out of the 4 songs we did that was the best one and I spent a bit of time mixing! The production has haulted because it would be a waste of time to mix something that is going to be re-recorded, because the singer didn't hit her notes supposively :P I told her she need to come back in and listen to what I have mixed before we go any further, but she seems confused thinking she is happy then having her dad or manager saying she can sing better...complicates things and money time, money time. This is when by the hour is very important because I aim to please no matter what. I did this as a favor and it is far over budget here with what I'm putting up with.

I would go by the hour if I had clients booked solid in and out the door like that,lived rent free or had another job that payed well. I have to pay a ceratin amount of rent at said time so have to figure that into it to get by but not screw myself. Musicians can be a bitch with paying up on time, paying at all sometimes and thinking it's super cheap while having a ego they can do just as good at times when you first start. Sometimes it feels like butting heads and tension to prove why they should give you a certain amount of money and not do it free which is insane to begin with... Have a preproduction meeting and meet the guys you're recording..go out to lunch, the bar, bring a notebook get a feel and idea of where it's going. just learn and stick to your guns. I like to deal with managers with the money and talk creative to the band. Dealing with the band you might get 4 guys splitting and 2 paying all on different schedules with a communications mess.

THE BETTER, PRO THE BAND IS THE MORE PRODUCTIVE AND LESS CONSTANT TWEAKS AND FIXES. A PRO BAND MIXES THEMSELVES TO A DEGREE. THE WORST THE BAND, THE MORE WORK ON YOUR PART AND BE PREPARED FOR THEM TO WANT YOU TO MAKE THEM SOUND LIKE A GOD WHEN IT'S FAR FROM TRUE, REJECT A LOT OF MIXES TO REDO THEM AND HAVE TONS OF EGO ISSUES SOMETIMES. ALL YOU CAN DO IS LEARN AND DO THE BEST YOU CAN DO AND IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS START CHARGING BY THE HOUR.
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