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How guitars sound in the mix??? Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 20th December 2010
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janek 68 View Post
My guitars are fat in the mix and fat soloed.If you have good sounding source it should sitting in the mix without dramatic changes.But it depends on music style and how song is arranged of course.
The key.....
Old 20th December 2010
  #62
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Great post monkey

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
But as I'm sure you know, there's plenty of tracks where this happens, but because of mults etc, as soon as the track kicks in, the sound can change.

Good example is the Andy Wallace/Chris Sheldon style of mixing. Having worked with Chris on many occasions, he (when mixing on an SSL) will have mults of the various parts - particularly drums - so that if there's more poke needed in the chorus, the "attack snare" will come up...if there's less weight needed, the "fat kick" will come down. The solo'd drum won't necessarily sound the same as the kick in the mix. Whilst I'm not saying the Joe Walsh track is like that (it possibly pre-dates automated consoles, I don't know), the criteria you give won't necessarily work for all tracks you listen to.
Yep, there are as many ways of mixing as there are engineers!


Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Likewise - you're totally ignoring styles of music. Joe Walsh - hardly Biffy Clyro is he? hardly has the layers of modern pop. If every synth on a modern pop record was as full as the initial preset most come from, it certainly wouldn't make a good mix.
In a way, I think both you and NMFuzz are right - you're just talking about different genres. I'd agree that if you can't mix a seventies sounding track where the parts sound good individually, there's something wrong - but invariably that will show up in the final mix because there's less going on. Likewise if you think you can mix a wall of guitars epic whilst still having everything rich, full bandwidth and full, I think there's something wrong there too. From his previous posts, UBK is more of a retro sort of guy I think so there's no contradiction there. If you can point me to a modern rock mix where the stems sound as huge as the final mix, I'll be impressed (and solo sections don't count here, because they've almost certainly been mult'd and processed separately).
I assumed that since I'd specifically mentioned modern rock/pop a couple of times in my original posts, that that is what people were discussing, but I see from the example given by TheKnow that this wasn't the case....


Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
At the end of the day though, there's no competition or prizes to be won if you make your stems sound as good as your final mix. I've worked with some of the UK's best mixers in multiple genres - NONE of them have the same methods exactly, and all of them produced great mixes. Who cares about anything other than the end result? to say someone's only at a certain stage of their journey because they approach things differently to you. I've heard guys earning thousands per mix who's stems don't sound amazing, but the final mixes do.
Exactly --- it's all about the finished whole at the end of the day --- sometimes elements can be left alone, other times they have to be beaten into shape. Usually, the more elements you have, the more beating you need to do, even assuming the arrangement is great to start with, and with a lot of modern rock, where people want massive everything, it becomes quite the juggling act......
Old 20th December 2010
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post

In my experiences of hearing tracks outside of their mix, I can't recall ever being surprised by how an element sounded in solo, it always sounded as it did in the mix. My ears understand where guitars end and bass begins, how hammered the vocal tends to be, how much click is in the kick to get it to cut.


Yep.
Old 20th December 2010
  #64
Gear Nut
 

yep times two!!

Giving examples in all Genres is possible but not mandatory...the Joe Walsh song ( which came on in the car) was an example, not an all encompassing point of reference.

...and it's a great example as there are elements which are soloed throughout the song...I think a few could stand to check that mix out....it's a great one!
Old 20th December 2010
  #65
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post

If every synth on a modern pop record was as full as the initial preset most come from, it certainly wouldn't make a good mix.



I've heard guys earning thousands per mix who's stems don't sound amazing, but the final mixes do.

Are you seriously going to contend that there are "amazing" mixes that exist in modern rock where the stems sound like garbage?

I would have to strongly suggest that those aren't "amazing" mixes.

Most mixes churned out aren't great mixes...even ones that pay thousands.


...and....just because you eq the snot outta something doesn't mean that it sounds crappy...you guys are stretching. I truly wish that the energy you are spending trying to nit pick semantics was put to getting yourselves to a new level of mixing. The music industry would be better for it.


This type of thinking goes hand in hand with the "cut don't boost" mentality...which dictates that the only way to make space is to cut things as opposed to boosting and "owning" that space...again it's a phase in the learning curve. We all get to places where we think we've "got it"...and of course we don't. Keep going.
Old 20th December 2010
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKnow View Post

I truly wish that the energy you are spending (...) was put to getting yourselves to a new level of mixing. The music industry would be better for it.

...again it's a phase in the learning curve. We all get to places where we think we've "got it"...and of course we don't. Keep going.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKnow View Post
there is a point in the mixing learning curve where this idea makes you feel better about your work...however..the truly great mixes don't have the same shortcomings....

if you are feeling this, keep working
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKnow View Post
this is an important phase that every good mix engineer has to go through. Good Luck
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKnow View Post
I'm certain you will figure out how to get past this hump in your process. Good Luck
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKnow View Post
Making room for everything with an eq is a stage that you get to, and that's great...making room for everything without carving the life outta everything is step above that.

Keep working
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKnow View Post
I would suggest forgetting about making excuses as to why this and that and just learn to do it better...just a suggestion
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKnow View Post
again it's a phase in the learning curve. We all get to places where we think we've "got it"...and of course we don't. Keep going.

Glad to know this is all just a silly phase that we'll get out of if we "keep going".

Advice def always works better when given at least six times
Old 20th December 2010
  #67
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Someone referenced Bob Clearmountain. I forget where I read it, but it was from one of his articles that I first learned about highpass filtering most things other than kick and bass. He specifically will do that, then when something is featured by itself (like a guitar intro), he'll remove the highpass filter temporarily.

So is sure seems that he's not afraid to chop things out to make it fit in the mix. If it's okay for him, then I'm not gonna look at it as bad technique.
Old 20th December 2010
  #68
Quote:
Originally Posted by nst7 View Post
Someone referenced Bob Clearmountain. I forget where I read it, but it was from one of his articles that I first learned about highpass filtering most things other than kick and bass. He specifically will do that, then when something is featured by itself (like a guitar intro), he'll remove the highpass filter temporarily.

So is sure seems that he's not afraid to chop things out to make it fit in the mix. If it's okay for him, then I'm not gonna look at it as bad technique.
Exactly the sort of point I was referring to above. This would more often be done on an analogue by multing the guitar up 2 channels, and using mute automation to move between them. one of the reasons why we have 48-72 channel desks designed for 24-48 track tape machines
Old 20th December 2010
  #69
Gear Nut
 

Who suggested that drastic equing, compression and automation weren't part of good mixing?

The subject has been changed it seems... OK with me..but lets just note what we've learned before we move on to the next misconception.

1. An element when soloed can/should sound great just as it should sound great when sitting in the mix

2. Eqing a soloed track is an important part of mixing..as is equing while in place

3.Arrangement decisions and production value are key to great mixes...and a great mixer will make arrangement decisions .

Old 20th December 2010
  #70
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedsMoreFuzz View Post
Glad to know this is all just a silly phase that we'll get out of if we "keep going".
I most definitely said it is an IMPORTANT PHASE...and it is
Old 20th December 2010
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
It occurs to me that a lot of this disagreement may come down to how you hear, specifically how much you have the ability to hear into masking and/or hear frequencies as separate entities as opposed to a melded whole.

In my experiences of hearing tracks outside of their mix, I can't recall ever being surprised by how an element sounded in solo, it always sounded as it did in the mix. My ears understand where guitars end and bass begins, how hammered the vocal tends to be, how much click is in the kick to get it to cut.

What *does* usually catch me off guard, even in my own mixes, is just how heavy the fx are when the rest of the sounds drop away. The crazy amount of reverb on a snare or vocal, the piles of delay cascading just below the surface, and the way they become subliminal in context. I can feel when they're there, but hearing them stripped of the bulk of the music still tends to make my eyebrows shoot up an inch or so.

This is especially true of 70's music which presents itself as fairly dry; those guys were absolute masters at tucking huge dense plates into mixes, making them extensions of the sound itself. The verb on Henley in Hotel California is enormous but still unobtrusive. It's humbling, really.


Gregory Scott - ubk
I would not agree with this completely. It happens especially with more electronic songs; they lose their magic and synergy when isolated. "Cheap" patches and cheap samples can produce an amazing end result.
Old 21st December 2010
  #72
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neil33's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nst7 View Post
Someone referenced Bob Clearmountain. I forget where I read it, but it was from one of his articles that I first learned about highpass filtering most things other than kick and bass. He specifically will do that, then when something is featured by itself (like a guitar intro), he'll remove the highpass filter temporarily.
Guess Bob Clearmountain needs to "keep going" to "get past that phase in his learning curve", according to TheKnow. heh
Old 21st December 2010
  #73
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Beyersound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nst7 View Post
Someone referenced Bob Clearmountain. I forget where I read it, but it was from one of his articles that I first learned about highpass filtering most things other than kick and bass. He specifically will do that, then when something is featured by itself (like a guitar intro), he'll remove the highpass filter temporarily.

So is sure seems that he's not afraid to chop things out to make it fit in the mix. If it's okay for him, then I'm not gonna look at it as bad technique.
Exactly! I just did the same thing with hugely fat and effected rhodes track, highpass off for the intro, on during verses and chorus, This principle works with many different elements of a mix, not just guitars!
Old 21st December 2010
  #74
As commonly seems to be the case, this thread shows how people who work on different types of music often have completely different views of things. It seems to also be a heavy component of "X sucks/X is amazing" when talking about equipment as well.

On Greg's point about F/X, I think it's really true from all of the analysis of other people's songs I've done. Think of those big fat plates from back when. They were very dense but not obtrusive, and just provided this wonderful backdrop which allowed there to be so much less in the foreground and still sound full and rich. Listen to the amount of reverb on Dark Side of the Moon or the Stones tracks that were recently discussed and many others from that era.

I guess the trick is the right kind of reverb, that fills in those holes that need to be filled in, while not getting in the way. But many of those songs sound nothing like the 80's swamped in reverb type stuff. The reverb was much more a warm backwash, not so much an element that you hear.
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