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Pro's please Read!!! Burning Drum Question!!! Condenser Microphones
Old 17th December 2010
  #1
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drum q

nm all

Last edited by lucifer0688; 17th December 2010 at 08:21 PM.. Reason: wanted to bold the title
Old 17th December 2010
  #2
I'm just going to get this out of the way now, since sooner or later someone's gonna post it:



The first 20 seconds is prelude, start paying attention about there...


Now someone answer the OP's actual question so I don't feel like a schmuck. heh
Old 17th December 2010
  #3
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Make sure your kit is tuned right before you put mics on it. It starts with the source.
Old 17th December 2010
  #4
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1. Can your drummer play well-enough to duplicate the sounds of the songs you mention?

2. Does the drummer's kit sound "right" when you hear it in the room? Is it a quality kit, well-tuned and set up?

3. In what sort of room are you recording? What are its strengths and deficiencies, acoustically?

Put more simply, can you get the sound you are after in the room—before you put up any mics?
Old 17th December 2010
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjew24 View Post
Make sure your kit is tuned right before you put mics on it. It starts with the source.
thanks for the reply, I got all that covered tho, new heads, right snare/quality kit. I'm lookin more for Mic techniques/types of mics/placement/signal chains stuff like that...
Old 17th December 2010
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus77 View Post
1. Can your drummer play well-enough to duplicate the sounds of the songs you mention?

2. Does the drummer's kit sound "right" when you hear it in the room? Is it a quality kit, well-tuned and set up?

3. In what sort of room are you recording? What are its strengths and deficiencies, acoustically?

Put more simply, can you get the sound you are after in the room—before you put up any mics?
I'm the drummer and yea all that checks out the room I'm recording in is 30x20 and its sound treated walls 9 foot ceilings 2 big double skylights on the center of the last 1/3rd of the room (longways)
Old 17th December 2010
  #7
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andychamp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I'm just going to get this out of the way now, since sooner or later someone's gonna post it:



The first 20 seconds is prelude, start paying attention about there...


Now someone answer the OP's actual question so I don't feel like a schmuck. heh
Who's playing the drums in this video? Obviously not the guy you see stop playing.
Old 17th December 2010
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifer0688 View Post
sound treated walls
Red flag.

Describe the sound treatment.
Old 17th December 2010
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifer0688 View Post
This is my first post so i have many questions to ask but ill start with the one thats been bugging me for 5+ years since i first tracked drums for the first time using a cad 7 piece drum mic kit and a korg d1600 mixer/recorder and it sounded like complete @$$ (for many many reasons)...

Q:How do i get my drum recordings to sound like those in Matt Nathanson's "car crash" or Parachute's (album "Losing Sleep" Produced by John Shanks) "all that i am"/"she (for liz)"/"She is love (full band version) etc? i know a lot of people probably just rolled their eyes like this guys an idiot... theres soo much that goes into getting that sound... lol but i just mean From mainly a Mic setup/Tracking perspective. For example like what Mic type/and or brand(LDC OH to pick up more of the body of the kit?)/Signal Chain/placement/Studio Tricks etc.. stuff like that... whatever it takes to get that professional tight snappy powerful clean drum sound. (ill post at the bottom the gear im working with as of now)

... Plz don't tell me they just use samples, theres got to be a way to get that sound with miking the whole kit and not just each drum and going back and copy/paste?
To clarify a little further what i basically want is to get that nice OH/room mic sound of the whole kit without having the cymbals that loud in the mix. when i figure this out ill finally track the drums to a cover song a friend and i am recording of Parachute's "the mess i made" and I'll have to post it for u guys to critique/give advice on.
I've been searching over the last five years and just really in the last year and a half or so i started to finally figure out how to step my recordings up to the next level (many thanks to this site for that!!!), but this specifically has been troubling me for quite sometime and i cant find any indepth answers to this... Plz help!!!

My recording gear: Pro Tools 9, Random misc. plug-ins, Profire 2626, KRK V8's stereo monitors, TLM 103, 3 Sm57's, Sm58, CAD 7 piece mic kit(snare,3toms,kick,2 pensil SDC's CM 217's) Mogami XLR cords, looking to buy stereo pair of OH/room mics for a decent price. leaning towards the MXL V 67 G's???thoughts???also gonna buy either a d112 or a 52a for kick and bass cab, which would be better for the style i like?
Try a pair of Coles 4038 or a good ribbon mic in front of the kit to start, and compress till you got close to that tone. and i'm not sure you can achieve that tone with a MXL V67G, the last time i try it on my kit, i didn't like it, to harsh and thin.
Old 17th December 2010
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by andychamp View Post
Who's playing the drums in this video? Obviously not the guy you see stop playing.
Nah... see... he's just moving so fast on those other hits you can't see his arms move... heh

It's billed as a battle between Matete and Django.

Old 17th December 2010
  #11
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afterjohn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjew24 View Post
Make sure your kit is tuned right before you put mics on it. It starts with the source.
I know you've already shot this advice down...but seriously, this is damn near 100% of good drum sound. Be in the room while the drummer is playing and make sure it sounds how you want it to sound. With this aspect covered you can pretty much go with the usual suspects mic wise. Once that is established, if it doesn't sound good in the control room...start moving mics around (placement, placement, placement!). Often we just use the pre's on the console for the drums, granted those are usually SSL but still, even if it's a Mackie 8 bus it can be done.
Old 17th December 2010
  #12
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andychamp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifer0688 View Post
(...)To clarify a little further what i basically want is to get that nice OH/room mic sound of the whole kit without having the cymbals that loud in the mix.(...)
I'll start assuming that both your room and kit sound really good.

Next, take your single best mic (ideally an LDC with switchable patterns) and place it somewhere in front of the kit, aimed at it, 2-3 ft. from the floor, about 5-6 ft. away, just for starters.

Start recording and listen to the results.
Use the different patterns to set your direct/room sound ratio.
The position of the mic will set a basic balance of the kit, at least regarding the shells.

Any further adjustments will have to be made TO YOUR PLAYING, and that includes the relative loudness of the drums and cymbals.

There's no way around it, if you're going for that sound.

SOME adjustments can be made, for instance with a very high (1kHz +) compressor sidechain, or by adding direct mics. But that would be beside the point.
Old 18th December 2010
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs Goat View Post
Red flag.

Describe the sound treatment.
not like dead just mean somethings to diffuse the sound on parallel walls and special kinda sound board drywall... mainly keeps the sound from exiting the walls to the outside.
Old 18th December 2010
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone View Post
Try a pair of Coles 4038 or a good ribbon mic in front of the kit to start, and compress till you got close to that tone. and i'm not sure you can achieve that tone with a MXL V67G, the last time i try it on my kit, i didn't like it, to harsh and thin.
the coles are a little spendy for right now but i have a TLM 103 i put about 6' infront of the kit just off the ground. ill try moving it around a little bit until i find the sweet spot! i was hoping that the g67's wouldnt be too sibilanty since their LDC and have a pretty flat response, but i cant find a drum sample of them anywhere and so i dont know what they sound like. just going off what other fellow GS guys have said about them on drums...
Old 18th December 2010
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andychamp View Post
I'll start assuming that both your room and kit sound really good.

Next, take your single best mic (ideally an LDC with switchable patterns) and place it somewhere in front of the kit, aimed at it, 2-3 ft. from the floor, about 5-6 ft. away, just for starters.

Start recording and listen to the results.
Use the different patterns to set your direct/room sound ratio.
The position of the mic will set a basic balance of the kit, at least regarding the shells.

Any further adjustments will have to be made TO YOUR PLAYING, and that includes the relative loudness of the drums and cymbals.

There's no way around it, if you're going for that sound.

SOME adjustments can be made, for instance with a very high (1kHz +) compressor sidechain, or by adding direct mics. But that would be beside the point.
yea i was listening to a few songs on my way to work and i was thinking that may be possible that they just have to play to cymbals with delicate hands while still getting the full tone out of the shells. but some songs sound like the tone of the cymbals is that of hitting them pretty hard relatively. Like in the Maine's "girls do what they want" off the album cant stop wont stop... as far as mics ill use direct mics on everything (with exception of the hats unless song calls for it) and the TLM 103 room mic then for OH's looking to get the MXL V 67's G. would have two spare SDC MC 217's for whatever i could use em for.
Old 18th December 2010
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afterjohn View Post
I know you've already shot this advice down...but seriously, this is damn near 100% of good drum sound. Be in the room while the drummer is playing and make sure it sounds how you want it to sound. With this aspect covered you can pretty much go with the usual suspects mic wise. Once that is established, if it doesn't sound good in the control room...start moving mics around (placement, placement, placement!). Often we just use the pre's on the console for the drums, granted those are usually SSL but still, even if it's a Mackie 8 bus it can be done.
yea my live sound room is also my control room and im doing all the recordings for the song were recording and so ill have to do alot of A and Bing between recording/listening adjusting. back and forth... For a pre im using the Profire 2626 with the octane preamps supposed to be legit but never really having used any other pre-amp A/D converters im just takin everyones word for it... and it does sound good to my ears to...
Old 18th December 2010
  #17
Vum
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Vum's Avatar
 

GT 67 is a tube mic and I use mine on most drum sessions as a secondary kick "oomph" mic. I look at problems like the one's your describing with the process of elimination. Take the cymbals and hats out of the equation, turn off the snare, and just play toms and kick with your best mic a few feet out. If you have a boxiness to the sound then your room is poor and you're better off in another studio.

If the drums lack sustain, oomph, then your tuning and/or room is in trouble. If the toms and kick sound punchy but everything goes crap when your snares are on, you've got your snare tuned to a sympathetic frequency and you should consider changing it or live with a buzzy kick + tom sound.

If from that one mic's "perspective" your performance isn't sounding the way it should (you'll know) then there are probably multiple factors at play.

You can move your one mic around, behind, above the kit until you find the right accent to what you want. Bring the cymbals in and work on your balance. Naturally for those very punchy and slick productions you'll need more than just ambient sources but you should generally if not ALWAYS get your kit sounding "right" from an ambient source before you start adding spot mics. If you don't you will likely end up with drums that sound great soloed, but crap in the mix.

Good luck!
Old 18th December 2010
  #18
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifer0688 View Post
to diffuse the sound on parallel walls and special kinda sound board drywall... mainly keeps the sound from exiting the walls to the outside.
Again, as people have stated, get the drums to sound right in the room FIRST.

Parallel walls, sound board drywall to keep sound in......

Not my idea of a good sounding room. There's a LOT more to a good sounding room than trying to contain sound and slap up some absorbtion.

If you can give a more descriptive analysis of the room, that would be helpful. With drums, the room is as much a part of the instrument as your snare drum.
Old 18th December 2010
  #19
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifer0688 View Post
the coles are a little spendy for right now but i have a TLM 103 i put about 6' infront of the kit just off the ground. ill try moving it around a little bit until i find the sweet spot! i was hoping that the g67's wouldnt be too sibilanty since their LDC and have a pretty flat response, but i cant find a drum sample of them anywhere and so i dont know what they sound like. just going off what other fellow GS guys have said about them on drums...

Ehhhhhh!!!! No, please. Get yourself a ribbon. Try an Apex 205. It will sound at least 10X's better than either of those mics. They can be had for around $90US. After you get some more cash, you can get it modded my MJoly and have a world class ribbon. thumbsupthumbsup

PS - if you're talking about a GT67, that's a decent mic for you apps if you want kind of a 70's sound. But if your'e talking about stock MXL 67G, no. Go ribbon out front of the kit as described earlier.
Old 19th December 2010
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Ehhhhhh!!!! No, please. Get yourself a ribbon. Try an Apex 205. It will sound at least 10X's better than either of those mics. They can be had for around $90US. After you get some more cash, you can get it modded my MJoly and have a world class ribbon. thumbsupthumbsup

PS - if you're talking about a GT67, that's a decent mic for you apps if you want kind of a 70's sound. But if your'e talking about stock MXL 67G, no. Go ribbon out front of the kit as described earlier.
i listened to your drum mic madness shootout post and liked the sound of the Apex mj205's. i thought that the mono room sounded a little boomy on the low end but loved how it tamed the cymbals down at the same time. Also i thought they sounded good as a spaced fig. of 8 pair over the kit. I did a comparison for the OH's between the c414 B-ULS and the 205 spaced OH's fig. of 8 and the c414 sounded way to sibilanty. way too much cymbal:drum ratio compared to the 205 which picked up alot more of the shells and once again tamed more of the cymbals...
Is there much of a difference between the modded 205 and stock? and if so do u have a sample of can describe the diff? think ill have to get a stereo pair of those for christmas now instead of the MXL v 67 g's.
Old 19th December 2010
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vum View Post
GT 67 is a tube mic and I use mine on most drum sessions as a secondary kick "oomph" mic. I look at problems like the one's your describing with the process of elimination. Take the cymbals and hats out of the equation, turn off the snare, and just play toms and kick with your best mic a few feet out. If you have a boxiness to the sound then your room is poor and you're better off in another studio.

If the drums lack sustain, oomph, then your tuning and/or room is in trouble. If the toms and kick sound punchy but everything goes crap when your snares are on, you've got your snare tuned to a sympathetic frequency and you should consider changing it or live with a buzzy kick + tom sound.

If from that one mic's "perspective" your performance isn't sounding the way it should (you'll know) then there are probably multiple factors at play.

You can move your one mic around, behind, above the kit until you find the right accent to what you want. Bring the cymbals in and work on your balance. Naturally for those very punchy and slick productions you'll need more than just ambient sources but you should generally if not ALWAYS get your kit sounding "right" from an ambient source before you start adding spot mics. If you don't you will likely end up with drums that sound great soloed, but crap in the mix.

Good luck!
thank you for all the tips i'm definitely going to try them. now i just need my two OH/room mics and i can finally finish tracking the drums to this song. thanks, ill post how it sounds shortly after christmas!!!
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