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getting "mud"-glue in the mix Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 15th December 2010
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES View Post
Brad could be both because I am not responsible for the arrangement.

But I am 100% sure its not the sounds it is me...I am doing something really WRONG!!!

OK here is a worth case scenario the first shot on it- nothing sits well ... base-range feels wrong everything sounds separate at its own- nothing glues the balance is whack.

It needs:

1) Sonic Drum manipulation

2) Better or a more soulful production/playing arrangement.
Actually just adding a really good R&B live bass player would do wonders and give the song more of a flow and movement.

3) Tasteful ambience and effects all over

4) Subtle automation throughout to build the sound

Basically tasteful mixing for the genre.

I've said it a million times over the years here on GS, the final "glue", "mojo" or "sound" of a mix that people call the "radio ready or "finished sound" has less to do with the gear and more to do with how the mix engineer hears and feels things. And in turn how he applies those aspects and interprets it to what you hear. Some of those things come from years of working in the specific genres and gaining experience into what works. But unfortunately that final 2% which feels unreachable at times, the proverbial special sonic nail in the coffin, those aspects that makes things really sound special, is just something that you are born with. And the truth is some people have it and some don't.

I don't know why that is and yeah when thinking about it may not be fair, but i guess if we all heard and felt things the same then there would be no variety which is the spice of life no?
Old 16th December 2010
  #32
Lives for gear
 
Mr.HOLMES's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
It needs:

1) Sonic Drum manipulation

2) Better or a more soulful production/playing arrangement.
Actually just adding a really good R&B live bass player would do wonders and give the song more of a flow and movement.

3) Tasteful ambience and effects all over

4) Subtle automation throughout to build the sound

Basically tasteful mixing for the genre.

I've said it a million times over the years here on GS, the final "glue", "mojo" or "sound" of a mix that people call the "radio ready or "finished sound" has less to do with the gear and more to do with how the mix engineer hears and feels things. And in turn how he applies those aspects and interprets it to what you hear. Some of those things come from years of working in the specific genres and gaining experience into what works. But unfortunately that final 2% which feels unreachable at times, the proverbial special sonic nail in the coffin, those aspects that makes things really sound special, is just something that you are born with. And the truth is some people have it and some don't.

I don't know why that is and yeah when thinking about it may not be fair, but i guess if we all heard and felt things the same then there would be no variety which is the spice of life no?
I think I know what I want to hear but I don't know the way to get there.
And I have my doubts about that some are born with it.

I guess all of them had to learn what they do some have more talent or train it more some less, some had great mentors some don't had the chance to work with great mentors.

To believe all comes out of yourself is like believing there never was the first note in man-child history on a primitive drum or bow.

I believe you can learn a lot in mixing and tracking as long as you don't give up to get what you have in mind.
OK some times you fail but you have to get up and try again and this is what I am doing at least.

For me the goal is to get fair mixes that have something.
I dont wat to be a master or a full time professional- but to get a decent mix that sounds OK is my goal.
Old 16th December 2010
  #33
Lives for gear
 
Tony Shepperd's Avatar
I've listened to the mix a couple of times now and there are things I think you can do to make the mix better, but the production elements are never going to let it be a great mix. And it has nothing to do with having played the instruments live or not. It's the production that you were given to mix. The sound's in the production are your biggest enemy.

Some Things You Could Try...
The synth strings come in hard and fast, they should be faded in and out. The drums sound like they are from an 808 from the 80's. If you sound replaced some of the sounds it would be better. Your choice of reverbs for the lead are actually not putting the vocal in a good space. The reverb sounds like it's REALLY mid range heavy. Add some pre delay to the lead vocal reverb. Put your clave sound a little to the right and put a delay or reverb on the left. And lastly tune the lead vocal in about 6 places.
Old 16th December 2010
  #34
Lives for gear
 
Mr.HOLMES's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
I've listened to the mix a couple of times now and there are things I think you can do to make the mix better, but the production elements are never going to let it be a great mix. And it has nothing to do with having played the instruments live or not. It's the production that you were given to mix. The sound's in the production are your biggest enemy.

Some Things You Could Try...
The synth strings come in hard and fast, they should be faded in and out. The drums sound like they are from an 808 from the 80's. If you sound replaced some of the sounds it would be better. Your choice of reverbs for the lead are actually not putting the vocal in a good space. The reverb sounds like it's REALLY mid range heavy. Add some pre delay to the lead vocal reverb. Put your clave sound a little to the right and put a delay or reverb on the left. And lastly tune the lead vocal in about 6 places.

Thanks Tony.
Mh replacing the drums was one of my ideas as well but I thought I have to make it happen with the given tracks.

But here comes which sounds work well together which I find more easy when writing myself a song.

Sorry for my lack in english what do you mean with "Tune the lead vocal in about 6 places" ???

Thanks to all who tried to help- I learned something here.

Happy X-mas to all GS
Old 16th December 2010
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES View Post
I think I know what I want to hear but I don't know the way to get there.
And I have my doubts about that some are born with it.

I guess all of them had to learn what they do some have more talent or train it more some less, some had great mentors some don't had the chance to work with great mentors.

To believe all comes out of yourself is like believing there never was the first note in man-child history on a primitive drum or bow.

I believe you can learn a lot in mixing and tracking as long as you don't give up to get what you have in mind.
OK some times you fail but you have to get up and try again and this is what I am doing at least.

For me the goal is to get fair mixes that have something.
I dont wat to be a master or a full time professional- but to get a decent mix that sounds OK is my goal.
My point is that its a nature and a nurture thing.

To me if anyone ever felt that they really had something really special to offer projects out there in terms of an original sonic perspective,then it behooves them to investigate it and test it out. This is part of the nurture process. By investigate it i mean to pursue and put themselves in the situations that will give them the best opportunities to learn and grow in the real knowledge of their craft. By testing it out i mean to put their necks on the line against everyone out there who is vying for the same piece of bread in terms of the best projects that have growth to offer.

Honestly if i want to be a professional soccer player and i think i can be among the best, then i am going to pursue every opportunity possible to get there. Being the best soccer player in my town or district is not enough. To be able to compete and be considered among the best in my professional peer group is one of the top goals. And those are the kinda guys that are out there mixing professional recordings for major record labels every day. They have that kinda drive and have all been tested or put themselves in different situations where they had to compete to impress producers/A&R's who are used to this kinda mind set from the people they hire. This weeding out process was one of the perks in the old days how the major studios would weed out who really has talent and potential among the interns and assistants and who didn't. This is how they could keep the young and up and coming talent and get rid of the people that they felt couldn't cut it or got to big headed with success.

But it does start from a seed or a spark in your sound in which the people who are put in charge to judge you can hear right away. Trust me its what they look for and to surround themselves with people that have that same quality. By recognizing this its how they've become successful. Mixing is part engineering but there is a production aspect as well. You have to be able to hear like both. Its no coincidence that the best mixing engineers all have hit productions under their belt as well. If you are really smart, working and being around the best producers is a great situation to really absorb a lot into what people really like to hear(Serban Ghenea is a great example). But to work with these producers and song writers you have to go find them and convince them to give you a shot.
Old 16th December 2010
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
well everybody is looking for 'glue' but they are also all trying to get rid of 'mud'

you need a lot of mud to stick things together, but only a little bit of glue will do the same job
maybe if i could just glue my mud together and then invert the phase on it or HPF it ....
yeah it all starts to sound the same after awhile
Old 16th December 2010
  #37
Lives for gear
 
Guitar Zero's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
Hey ya'll, while I like having tape on some genres for "glue", it doesn't work on all all styles of music.

As for the posting of mixes. Here are two files that I mixed, but did not track:
Here is the Unmastered mix: https://files.me.com/tonysound/z2ktm8.mp3
Here is the Mastered mix: https://files.me.com/tonysound/enfway
The artist is John Stoddart

I don't know that the unmastered one is missing the glue because it hasn't been mastered yet. I don't think you can wait for mastering to put that "glue" on the mix. I tend to refer to mastering as the polish, not the glue. But maybe I'm wrong, you all tell me is there more "glue" with mastering or just louder?
Interesting to listen to both mixes. I tried to level match as best as possible, and there is not much difference. The difference I hear is in the low end, especially the kick. In the unmastered mix, it sounds just a touch pillowy, but in the mastered one, the kick cuts through a little better. Bass maybe a touch more clarity in the mastered mix. Don't know if I'm hearing things. Tony, it would be interesting to hear what the ME ACTUALLY did to the low end.
Old 16th December 2010
  #38
Gear Maniac
 

sorry to be blunt

the sounds are inorganic.
kik is a freak... not in a good way.
and ya, no soup. no dirt.
i'd go almost mono for starters. use lots of different ambiances and sat plugs very sparingly. if you want it to sound clean and expensive... it wont. and it shows so far... in my opinion going 'minimal' wont help. to get the bottom happening you need lots of compression, (done and in the correct way of course.) many classic records were done by taking the tapes to different studios for overdubs. theres no rule one room is best. i know its a contradiction to say it sounds inorganic and then reccomend a load of comp and dirt plugs but hey...


"unfortunately that final 2% which feels unreachable at times, the proverbial special sonic nail in the coffin, those aspects that makes things really sound special"

very true
Old 16th December 2010
  #39
Lives for gear
 
Mr.HOLMES's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
My point is that its a nature and a nurture thing.

To me if anyone ever felt that they really had something really special to offer projects out there in terms of an original sonic perspective,then it behooves them to investigate it and test it out. This is part of the nurture process. By investigate it i mean to pursue and put themselves in the situations that will give them the best opportunities to learn and grow in the real knowledge of their craft. By testing it out i mean to put their necks on the line against everyone out there who is vying for the same piece of bread in terms of the best projects that have growth to offer.

Honestly if i want to be a professional soccer player and i think i can be among the best, then i am going to pursue every opportunity possible to get there. Being the best soccer player in my town or district is not enough. To be able to compete and be considered among the best in my professional peer group is one of the top goals. And those are the kinda guys that are out there mixing professional recordings for major record labels every day. They have that kinda drive and have all been tested or put themselves in different situations where they had to compete to impress producers/A&R's who are used to this kinda mind set from the people they hire. This weeding out process was one of the perks in the old days how the major studios would weed out who really has talent and potential among the interns and assistants and who didn't. This is how they could keep the young and up and coming talent and get rid of the people that they felt couldn't cut it or got to big headed with success.

But it does start from a seed or a spark in your sound in which the people who are put in charge to judge you can hear right away. Trust me its what they look for and to surround themselves with people that have that same quality. By recognizing this its how they've become successful. Mixing is part engineering but there is a production aspect as well. You have to be able to hear like both. Its no coincidence that the best mixing engineers all have hit productions under their belt as well. If you are really smart, working and being around the best producers is a great situation to really absorb a lot into what people really like to hear(Serban Ghenea is a great example). But to work with these producers and song writers you have to go find them and convince them to give you a shot.

I think you don't understand what I mean or it is a language barrier?

I had mixes which I like some others I can tweak and tweak and nothing happens. Which sounds you choose, that this is so much responsible to get a good mix was a new message for me.

I always felt that I can hear the balance and that I can point out great mixes like Tonys one tells me I can hear what a great balance is.

On the other side of the coin I do not want to compete but I want to learn I want to get better. And there should be a compromise between being the master in town or just making fair work which translates the intend of the music.

It is useless to try to compete with engineers who have 24 + years experience doing their job every day.

If your theory would be true many freelance composers who a forced to do it their self in TV and Film etc. should have to close their doors because they don't get the balance like a long time professional.

Believe me if I would win in the lottery Tony would be the one who mixes the songs and stuff I write and I just would concentrate on writing- because this is my first love.

But ppl. want instant files ready to go and with this I have to learn to get better...I am not Hans Zimmer so my budget is tight for employing engineers so tight that it impossible.

Would be a great wish by myself to have one engineer working for me.
Until I may can afford such a personal enginner it will take 3-5 years.

Thats the game but don't get me wrong that I want to compete here I don't!!
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