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Current production microphone closest to AKG D12? Dynamic Microphones
Old 15th September 2010
  #1
Gear Head
 

Current production microphone closest to AKG D12?

I'd really like an AKG D12 for recording bass drums but, as they're no longer in production and have (along with the D20) become expensive on the vintage market, can anyone recommend a current production microphone which is similar or comes close?

I'm into very simple drum mic'ing - sometimes just a single Beyer M160, or a Coles 4038 overhead and mics on the snare & bass drum, so don't really want a modern mic with hyped frequency response like the D112 or D6.

Suggestions gratefully recieved.
Old 15th September 2010
  #2
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntManBee View Post
I'd really like an AKG D12 for recording bass drums but, as they're no longer in production and have (along with the D20) become expensive on the vintage market, can anyone recommend a current production microphone which is similar or comes close?

I'm into very simple drum mic'ing - sometimes just a single Beyer M160, or a Coles 4038 overhead and mics on the snare & bass drum, so don't really want a modern mic with hyped frequency response like the D112 or D6.

Suggestions gratefully recieved.
No. Which is why I have 4 of them.
Old 15th September 2010
  #3
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
No. Which is why I have 4 of them.
I thought that might be the answer! I'm just anxious about spending a lot of money on a mic which, it seems, is now difficult to have serviced and for which there is no longer support or spares available from AKG.

Why oh why don't AKG just reissue the D12...I'd have thought that by now it's clear that all the best gear was made in the latter part of the 20th Century and that the way forward is backward!
Old 15th September 2010
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntManBee View Post
I thought that might be the answer! I'm just anxious about spending a lot of money on a mic which, it seems, is now difficult to have serviced and for which there is no longer support or spares available from AKG.

Why oh why don't AKG just reissue the D12...I'd have thought that by now it's clear that all the best gear was made in the latter part of the 20th Century and that the way forward is backward!
JUST reissue ? Like they did with C12 and C451 ?
Old 15th September 2010
  #5
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Jamie Mac's Avatar
Look for a AKG D17, or also branded as Telefunken M411.
They use the same capsule as the D12, but no bass resonance chamber attached to the back of it. So it won't sound as ballsy, but with some EQ it could sound similar.

They tend to be cheaper, but be sure to find a gooseneck or swivel mount as there is no way to put it on a stand.
Old 15th September 2010
  #6
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Mac View Post
Look for a AKG D17, or also branded as Telefunken M411.
They use the same capsule as the D12, but no bass resonance chamber attached to the back of it. So it won't sound as ballsy, but with some EQ it could sound similar.

They tend to be cheaper, but be sure to find a gooseneck or swivel mount as there is no way to put it on a stand.
Thanks. What about the Echolette Select Master D12 which is believe is the same as the AKG (although in pictures it seems to have an odd connector - a tuchel)?
Old 15th September 2010
  #7
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
For kik drums, the RE-20 seems to have a similar response.

Best of luck with your search.

Peace.
Old 15th September 2010
  #8
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Jamie Mac's Avatar
Yes, the echolette's are the same. They had different names, with slightly different specs; some had switches or volume and HPF pots.

TOP 12
Select Master 12
ED12
Old 16th September 2010
  #9
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vincentvangogo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Mac View Post
Look for a AKG D17, or also branded as Telefunken M411.
They use the same capsule as the D12, but no bass resonance chamber attached to the back of it. So it won't sound as ballsy, but with some EQ it could sound similar.

They tend to be cheaper, but be sure to find a gooseneck or swivel mount as there is no way to put it on a stand.
Does that mean you could use the capsule to fix a dying D12?
Old 16th September 2010
  #10
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Jamie Mac's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo View Post
Does that mean you could use the capsule to fix a dying D12?
I don't know if it's possible. The bass resonance chamber is attached to the rear of the capsule in the D12, so you would need to de-assemble the capsule and put it back together with parts of the D17.. if at all possible.
Old 2nd August 2017
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntManBee View Post
Why oh why don't AKG just reissue the D12...I'd have thought that by now it's clear that all the best gear was made in the latter part of the 20th Century and that the way forward is backward!
Because the people who work for these companies are frankly often IDIOTS! We have the same problem in the Saxophone world. Companies would rather use cheaper metal and non-human tweaking and assembly - yet spend money on R&D "looking for what Saxophonists want" - when any Saxophonist who picks up a vintage horn will tell you it sounds better and THAT'S what they want! Idiots.

One of the top AKG repairmen on the East Coast told me not to touch a thing AKG makes now - it's all junk. He was trained in the Vienna plant, which recently closed as AKG got bought out (and downgraded). As with many buy-outs, the parent company is just looking at profit in the shortest term and stupidest way. Long-term business is the key to quality.

This is why hand made, boutique makers usually have an advantage:
1 - They actually give a **** about their products - AND many of them are true music lovers or musicians, not just suits.
2 - Their quality control is much higher
3 - Their warranty and service is usually higher too.

Unfortunately, the price is much higher. But the question is "Than WHAT?"
Higher than gambling on a vintage piece with wear and tear and normal degradation + repair costs...
vs.
A mass-manufactured POS that doesn't sound good
vs.
A hand-built item that sounds great and has great service behind it.

I dunno. I sometimes want to slap the ppl. at the heads of these audio companies that screw everything up! Audio is a detailed, fine thing. You can't just throw **** together and say "Yeah, that's good enough - put it out there and see if it sells!"


Last edited by Voice and Sax; 19th August 2017 at 08:56 PM.. Reason: clarity
Old 2nd August 2017
  #12
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice and Sax View Post
Because the people who work for these companies are quite frankly often IDIOTS. We have the same problem in the Saxophone world. Companies would rather spend tons of money on R&D yet insist on cheaper metal and non parabolic bores (more labor to make) than just do what they did with the Mark VI - which is why everyone is looking for a vintage Mark VI that isn't ragged out.

One of the top AKG repairmen on the East Coast told me not to touch a thing AKG makes now; that it's all junk, and I believe him. AKG got bought out and the Vienna factory was recently closed. As with many buy-outs, the parent company is just looking at profit in the shortest term and stupidest way.

This is why hand made, boutique makers always have the advantage:
1 - they care. As in, they actually give a ****! Many of them are true music lovers or musicians themselves.
2 - The quality control is much higher
3 - The warranty and service is usually much higher too.

Unfortunately, the price is much higher. But the question is "Than WHAT?"
Higher than gambling on a vintage piece with wear and tear and normal degradation + repair costs...
vs.
A mass-manufactured POS that doesn't sound good
vs.
A hand-built item that sounds great and has great service behind it.

I dunno. I sometimes want to slap the heads of these companies that screw everything up!

wow, 7 years and it seems no change in the D12 world ... i use the D112 and have been pretty happy wth it ..
Old 2nd August 2017
  #13
Just had my first experience with the D12VR and....

No.

For more natural inside kick sounds (if there is such a thing) RE20 or M88. I also like the Shure 313 ribbon.
Old 2nd August 2017
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
wow, 7 years and it seems no change in the D12 world ... i use the D112 and have been pretty happy wth it ..
I realize it's uber-hip to denigrate people who post on "old" threads (whatever YOUR concept of "old" is). I personally think the people who do this are idiots; that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Truth is, the search for great audio is as old as recording itself. Reading or responding to a thread - regardless of its age - has no bearing on anything.

Second, I've found that many people who swear by the "next best thing" really haven't worked with THE actual gear in question. Therefore, in a discussion in which one is COMPARING qualities between A and B, someone swearing that A is just as good as B, yet never having thoroughly worked with B... well, their opinion means nothing to me.

Now that we got this out of the way, I HAVE worked with quite a bit of the top gear; Neumanns, Neves, LA2A, API and so forth. I have done EXTENSIVE A/B tests with equipment; done many exacting shoot-outs in my day and I have damn discerning ears. Quite often, modern "clone" equipment is not up to snuff. There are exceptions - a number of fine makers of condenser mics of the Neumann / AKG / Telefunken variety, etc.

But usually, dynamics today are not like their vintage predecessors - and I own most of the vintage dynamics and have owned the modern stuff too. (I usually sell off the modern stuff because it almost never sounds as good).

This AKG D12 is one example of a mic that I feel has not been properly "cloned" yet, for whatever reason. The D112 you like is not like a D12, nor is the D12 VR or whatever they're calling it.

So, if you have not worked with both A and B and done good tests with them, do me a favor and don't comment on a post, and certainly there is no need to comment in a condescending tone.
Old 2nd August 2017
  #15
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice and Sax View Post
I realize it's uber-hip to denigrate people who post on "old" threads (whatever YOUR concept of "old" is). I personally think the people who do this are idiots; that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
i hope you are not thinking that i am this person "denigrating" someone for posting in an older thread.. haha, thats funny .. i am the complete opposite .. you must have read my comment wrong ...

not that the person commenting on a 7 year old thread is a fool !! not at all ... that the Thread has not had any movement in 7 years ..

a D12 replica or emulation or the reissue D12VR (bad review on SOS) .. there is no substitute for that tried and true D12 yet .. imho

understood !!! i hope so .. as i would take that badly if you were calling me out !! LOL ..

all good ????

cheers john
Old 3rd August 2017
  #16
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice and Sax View Post
This AKG D12 is one example of a mic that I feel has not been properly "cloned" yet, for whatever reason. The D112 you like is not like a D12, nor is the D12 VR or whatever they're calling it.
You're right, the D112 is its own thing, and is nothing like the D12. As for the the D12 VR, would "... or whatever they're calling it" be an indication that you haven't tried one?
Old 3rd August 2017
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
all good ????
All good.
Old 3rd August 2017
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
You're right, the D112 is its own thing, and is nothing like the D12. As for the the D12 VR, would "... or whatever they're calling it" be an indication that you haven't tried one?
I have not owned a D112 or D12VR but I have had the D112 in my studio before and did not particularly like the sound compared to my EV RE20 (a vintage one re-foamed and calibrated by EV). The D112 was a more "anemic" sound and I can see how this sound is preferred for certain types of music. For me, it didn't give me the warm, full, balanced sound I'm looking for on a kick drum. I much preferred the EV20 for this.

As for the VR, I have not personally had one in my hands (yet) but I have listened to a number of recordings and A/B tests against the 112 and re20 - which I have tested - and I think I have a good idea of what this mic does sonically in comparison.

However, none of them - not even my RE20, seems to impart the full-bodied warmth and punch that a vintage D12 does. And that's a damn shame. A damn shame b/c this company can't seem to get its act together and make their magic happen again!
- - - - - - -

By the way, I think it's important to talk about what kind of music you are recording to understand equipment critiques. A tool is only as good as it reaches a goal, and the goal is a style of music; a "sound." I am mostly playing and recording classic-styled R&B, soul, jazz, funk and pop, as well as guitar / voice and piano / voice (singer-songwriter, folk, theater, etc).

As a result, I typically look for equipment that gives me a range of warm, full and balanced sounds that I can work with. The clicky bass drum sound that some people love just doesn't work for what I do - after all, I'm not recording Heavy Metal over Dance crap here, lol. But I can hear how this sound works great in that kind of mix!

: )
Old 3rd August 2017
  #19
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

So that's a yes.
Old 3rd August 2017
  #20
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice and Sax View Post
I have not owned a D112 or D12VR but I have had the D112 in my studio before and did not particularly like the sound compared to my EV RE20 (a vintage one re-foamed and calibrated by EV). The D112 was a more "anemic" sound and I can see how this sound is preferred for certain types of music. For me, it didn't give me the warm, full, balanced sound I'm looking for on a kick drum. I much preferred the EV20 for this.

As for the VR, I have not personally had one in my hands (yet) but I have listened to a number of recordings and A/B tests against the 112 and re20 - which I have tested - and I think I have a good idea of what this mic does sonically in comparison.

However, none of them - not even my RE20, seems to impart the full-bodied warmth and punch that a vintage D12 does. And that's a damn shame. A damn shame b/c this company can't seem to get its act together and make their magic happen again!
- - - - - - -

By the way, I think it's important to talk about what kind of music you are recording to understand equipment critiques. A tool is only as good as it reaches a goal, and the goal is a style of music; a "sound." I am mostly playing and recording classic-styled R&B, soul, jazz, funk and pop, as well as guitar / voice and piano / voice (singer-songwriter, folk, theater, etc).

As a result, I typically look for equipment that gives me a range of warm, full and balanced sounds that I can work with. The clicky bass drum sound that some people love just doesn't work for what I do - after all, I'm not recording Heavy Metal over Dance crap here, lol. But I can hear how this sound works great in that kind of mix!

: )
thats spot on for the D112 .. i use mine on a Kick with No Front Head and it sits just inside the rim .. to my ears, it sounds a little better, bigger this way . helps the Anemic factor .. !!! and sometimes i toss it through a 1081 and that helps it Meat Up quite a Bit too !!!

a friend has the Telefunken Kick Mic and i might get to hear that next week .. he has been quite happy with it but i have no personal experience and am very curious to check that puppy out .. i can take my D112 and do a side by side and post some Wav files to dropbox ..

TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik :: TELEFUNKEN M82

cheers john
Old 3rd August 2017
  #21
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice and Sax View Post
Second, I've found that many people who swear by the "next best thing" really haven't worked with THE actual gear in question. Therefore, in a discussion in which one is COMPARING qualities between A and B, someone swearing that A is just as good as B, yet never having thoroughly worked with B... well, their opinion means nothing to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice and Sax View Post
So, if you have not worked with both A and B and done good tests with them, do me a favor and don't comment on a post, and certainly there is no need to comment in a condescending tone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice and Sax View Post
I have not owned a D112 or D12VR
Lols.
Old 3rd August 2017
  #22
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andersmv's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micoholic View Post
Lols.
To be fair, he said he has not "owned" either. He went on to say that he's at least used the D112 and compared, not sure about the D12VR though.
Old 4th August 2017
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyfreeman View Post
Just had my first experience with the D12VR and....

No.

For more natural inside kick sounds (if there is such a thing) RE20 or M88. I also like the Shure 313 ribbon.
To each their own...I have an original D12, and most of the time for the music I record I put up the VR. I find it really useful (and I never liked the 112 either).

There's a place for RE20s and 421s etc on kicks, but if I could only have one kick mic, at this point it'd be the d12vr.
Old 4th August 2017
  #24
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antichef's Avatar
I recently picked up a really old D12 (5 pin DIN instead of an XLR). Had a scare when it didn't work but then discovered one of the leads had separated from the turret board - easy fix. Also there was a BB sized iron fragment magnetically stuck to the capsule - easy to remove.

Now it sounds great, and really nothing like my D112s (which I don't dislike)

But I can imagine lots of ways the D12 could go down for the count. The leads coming out of the transformer looked a little ragged, for instance. I'd be paranoid about getting another one - at least one this old.
Old 4th August 2017
  #25
Gear Addict
 

Are the later (70's?) ones with the XLR in the barrel still as good as the older ones with the attached lead?
Old 4th August 2017
  #26
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allstar's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by antichef View Post
I recently picked up a really old D12 (5 pin DIN instead of an XLR)
That's the MIDI version designed for Metal right ?

Old 4th August 2017
  #27
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antichef's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by allstar View Post
That's the MIDI version designed for Metal right ?

haha - yes - does kick replacement like a champ

I actually did cannibalize a short midi cable with a female end to create an adapter to XLR
Old 4th August 2017
  #28
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gpiccolini's Avatar
I have bought 2 D12. Both came broken. I mean: they "worked", but both had a severe cut in lows. One was from a known seller. He took it back when I showed him a sweep chart I did comparing it with a SM58. I stoped looking for one since then.
Old 4th August 2017
  #29
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jwh1192's Avatar
and why can't AKG make a good product anymore !!! they made some classics .. too bad really ... i will keep using my D112 and EQ the bejesus out of it !!! haha
Old 5th August 2017
  #30
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kafka's Avatar
What year was the D12E discontinued?
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