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"Apprenticeship" compared to "Recording School"? Recorders, Players & Tape Machines
Old 23rd October 2010
  #121
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dualflip's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov View Post
The gearslutz bug has bitten me so I'd like to actually be PAID for
my addiction for knob twisting.

Seriously, I'm considering entering Recording Connection's program, and would appreciate any insights, comments, whatever, regarding apprenticeships or schools, etc.
Their website is www.recordingconnection.com

Thanks in advance for any responses,
Chris

P.S. This is even after reading MM's "diary"!
To be honest, and im talking from my own experience, you need both, a good school, and a good mentor. In school you learn a lot of stuff, the technical stuff, and all around recording. But an apprenticeship or internship teaches you a lot more of the "real" or hands on recording, its like you apply all you learned in school plus more. Whatever works for you is ok.
Old 26th October 2010
  #122
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip View Post
To be honest, and im talking from my own experience, you need both, a good school, and a good mentor. In school you learn a lot of stuff, the technical stuff, and all around recording. But an apprenticeship or internship teaches you a lot more of the "real" or hands on recording, its like you apply all you learned in school plus more. Whatever works for you is ok.
That is exactly what I was told. You need to get a good balance from the two. Technical know how and hands on experience.
Old 27th October 2010
  #123
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip View Post
To be honest, and im talking from my own experience, you need both, a good school, and a good mentor. In school you learn a lot of stuff, the technical stuff, and all around recording. But an apprenticeship or internship teaches you a lot more of the "real" or hands on recording, its like you apply all you learned in school plus more. Whatever works for you is ok.
Sounds good. But why do many people on these forums have such a problem with mentor/ apprentice programs?
Old 27th October 2010
  #124
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AcoosticZoo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faye Clamor View Post
Sounds good. But why do many people on these forums have such a problem with mentor/ apprentice programs?
it's often the apprentice that has problems, not the mentor. Bad attitude, lack of common respect, etc... It happens. a real turn off. Just saying that music is your passion doesn't warrant us to go wow, nothing apprentices does makes us go wow - that's why they are still an apprentice. If they came in with a little more humility and open mind, that would be just the start. I don't treat people badly, and always view them in the best possible light until they prove otherwise.

Some Apprentices ask too many stupid question at the wrong time, they aspect everything to be taught. I like to see them try and solve issues by themselves, if they're not sweating/working hard to come up with the solutions why should I baby spoon feed them info - in the end, if it's easy, they won't value the importance of what they've learnt.

Success is 99% attitude and 1% aptitude imo.

Regards
Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer
www.acoosticzoo.com
Old 27th October 2010
  #125
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcoosticZoo View Post
I like to see them try and solve issues by themselves, if they're not sweating/working hard to come up with the solutions why should I baby spoon feed them info - in the end, if it's easy, they won't value the importance of what they've learnt.

Success is 99% attitude and 1% aptitude imo.

Regards
Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer
www.acoosticzoo.com

I fully agree. At the end of the day you don't want your intern to be a mini you. By having them solve their own problems and learn to work under pressure it forces them to develop their own methods and problem solving skills and makes them more self reliant. I'll tell my interns every trick I know, but they can solve their own routing errors.

I remember once not having the master fader up on the console and the only way i could hear audio was to solo the tracks. My mentor left me hanging for an hour until i figured it out. That was before i was working with clients.
Old 27th October 2010
  #126
Lives for gear
 

Recording Connection

I'm just about to finish up the course. Here's my take on it.
The work-at-home materials cover the basics pretty well, but realize that they are just that: basics. My knowledge of what went on in studios, and what gear they used, was pretty much nil. So for me, the course material helped. If you are familiar with what goes on in studios, and have a decent grasp of the technical side, then it probably makes sense to just get yourself into a studio as an intern and save $7500.
The biggest value for me was being placed with a good studio owned by a guy who is generous with his time and attention. There is no substitute for spending time in a studio.
The biggest surprise for me, coming from the classical music world, was how complex and "serious" pop and rock music is. Being a music snob, I expected pop sessions would be easy, but now I know that, while I would take on a chamber group or even a symphony or opera, I've got a ways to do before I can work directly with pop or rock groups. Producing requires you to know the musical genre so thoroughly that you can stay completely sync'd into the performance, and know instantly what needs to happen (or change) and how to communicate that to the performers. Spending time next to someone who *does* that is invaluable.

WW
Old 28th October 2010
  #127
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcoosticZoo View Post
it's often the apprentice that has problems, not the mentor. Bad attitude, lack of common respect, etc... It happens. a real turn off. Just saying that music is your passion doesn't warrant us to go wow, nothing apprentices does makes us go wow - that's why they are still an apprentice. If they came in with a little more humility and open mind, that would be just the start. I don't treat people badly, and always view them in the best possible light until they prove otherwise.

Some Apprentices ask too many stupid question at the wrong time, they aspect everything to be taught. I like to see them try and solve issues by themselves, if they're not sweating/working hard to come up with the solutions why should I baby spoon feed them info - in the end, if it's easy, they won't value the importance of what they've learnt.

Success is 99% attitude and 1% aptitude imo.

Regards
Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer
www.acoosticzoo.com
+1 on the above. I've heard of people asking questions before the mentor has even had a chance to finish explaining what he has just done.
Old 1st November 2010
  #128
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Way View Post
I'm just about to finish up the course. Here's my take on it.
The work-at-home materials cover the basics pretty well, but realize that they are just that: basics. My knowledge of what went on in studios, and what gear they used, was pretty much nil. So for me, the course material helped. If you are familiar with what goes on in studios, and have a decent grasp of the technical side, then it probably makes sense to just get yourself into a studio as an intern and save $7500.
The biggest value for me was being placed with a good studio owned by a guy who is generous with his time and attention. There is no substitute for spending time in a studio.
The biggest surprise for me, coming from the classical music world, was how complex and "serious" pop and rock music is. Being a music snob, I expected pop sessions would be easy, but now I know that, while I would take on a chamber group or even a symphony or opera, I've got a ways to do before I can work directly with pop or rock groups. Producing requires you to know the musical genre so thoroughly that you can stay completely sync'd into the performance, and know instantly what needs to happen (or change) and how to communicate that to the performers. Spending time next to someone who *does* that is invaluable.

WW

Glad things worked out for you. Nice to hear something positive rather than all the naysaying.
Old 1st November 2010
  #129
Lives for gear
 
j-uk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faye Clamor View Post
Where would be the best place to acquire this knowledge?
Do a part time evening course in electronics 101. Regardless where you end up you'll always do soldering...
Old 3rd November 2010
  #130
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by j-uk View Post
Do a part time evening course in electronics 101. Regardless where you end up you'll always do soldering...
Great idea, thanks. I did some basic soldering work at high school. Was pretty good at it if I do say so myself. Will look into evening / weekend classes.
Old 4th November 2010
  #131
Gear Maniac
 

I have been thinking about enrolling in a basic electronics course as it can come in very handy at home. Why pay someone $$$$ to re-solder your DVD player when you can do it yourself.
Old 9th November 2010
  #132
Gear Nut
 

I did a little checking and discovered a p/t evening course on basic electronics at a community college nearby. And the cost is very reasonable. The next course begins in the new year.
Old 10th November 2010
  #133
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Way View Post
I'm just about to finish up the course. Here's my take on it.
The work-at-home materials cover the basics pretty well, but realize that they are just that: basics. My knowledge of what went on in studios, and what gear they used, was pretty much nil. So for me, the course material helped. If you are familiar with what goes on in studios, and have a decent grasp of the technical side, then it probably makes sense to just get yourself into a studio as an intern and save $7500.
The biggest value for me was being placed with a good studio owned by a guy who is generous with his time and attention. There is no substitute for spending time in a studio.
The biggest surprise for me, coming from the classical music world, was how complex and "serious" pop and rock music is. Being a music snob, I expected pop sessions would be easy, but now I know that, while I would take on a chamber group or even a symphony or opera, I've got a ways to do before I can work directly with pop or rock groups. Producing requires you to know the musical genre so thoroughly that you can stay completely sync'd into the performance, and know instantly what needs to happen (or change) and how to communicate that to the performers. Spending time next to someone who *does* that is invaluable.

WW
Have you managed to get recording studio work since you completed your course Bill?
Old 14th November 2010
  #134
Gear Maniac
 

It's been mentioned many times, the problem is that some students when they enroll in any form of music school expect to be "experts" when they finish their course. But it has also been stated that recording is a continuous training occupation. You will always be learning new techniques and equipment. Unfortunately when these people realize they are not these world renowned experts they are pissed and blame the school for their shortcomings. In short, don't blame the school.
Old 14th November 2010
  #135
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themaidsroom's Avatar
 

the little bit i have been lucky to observe some really world class engineers
over the past ten years - almost all of them trained by walter sear - i noticed
one major thing. the most successful engineers are bright, educated interesting
human beings with rich cerebral lives outside of the recording studio environment
who are extremely gifted in empathy and sensitivity.
they are people who make artists and those around them feel safe and comfortable.
this skill proceeds the technical skills by miles. these are the
people who are valued and invited back and progress along into careers.



be well


- jack
Old 14th November 2010
  #136
Lives for gear
 
RCM - Ronan's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by themaidsroom View Post
the little bit i have been lucky to observe some really world class engineers
over the past ten years - almost all of them trained by walter sear - i noticed
one major thing. the most successful engineers are bright, educated interesting
human beings with rich cerebral lives outside of the recording studio environment
who are extremely gifted in empathy and sensitivity.
they are people who make artists and those around them feel safe and comfortable.
this skill proceeds the technical skills by miles. these are the
people who are valued and invited back and progress along into careers.

Awesome Post!!!!!thumbsup
Old 14th November 2010
  #137
Which do I need to be able to drive my car to work: wheels or an engine?

Both.
Old 16th November 2010
  #138
Gear Nut
 

Bill Way are you there?
Old 17th November 2010
  #139
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayfrigo View Post
Which do I need to be able to drive my car to work: wheels or an engine?

Both.
Care to elaborate?
Old 18th November 2010
  #140
Lives for gear
 
RCM - Ronan's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldeneye13 View Post
Care to elaborate?
Goldeneye13, What is your relationship with the Recording Connection?
Old 18th November 2010
  #141
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCM - Ronan View Post
Goldeneye13, What is your relationship with the Recording Connection?
I began a course with them about 6 weeks ago.
Old 19th November 2010
  #142
TapeOp tells it as it is

+1 for apprenticeship.

I've been reading TapeOp magazine for a few years now, and the latest issue interviews Pat Dillett, an engineer who'd worked with many great musicians. Although he has a degree in an unrelated subject from college, he began at Skyline Studios by "cleaning toilets".
Old 23rd November 2010
  #143
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayfrigo View Post
Which do I need to be able to drive my car to work: wheels or an engine?

Both.
You may very well need a Key.
Old 24th November 2010
  #144
Gear Nut
 

Sorry, trying to be funny.
Old 24th November 2010
  #145
Gear Head
 
tomgahagan's Avatar
 

While I am sure that some of the apprentice horror stories posted here have some basis in truth it should also be said that there ARE plenty of not so great MENTORS out there too. Some folks just do not have the ability or even the desire to teach.. they just want a "go for" because they are to lazy to wipe their own tails. As with any relationship it takes two to tango.

BUT.....

An good mentor IS an excellent thing to find and if you do find one..... do what ever it takes to keep that relationship strong.

Peace out.....
Thomas
Old 28th November 2010
  #146
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomgahagan View Post
While I am sure that some of the apprentice horror stories posted here have some basis in truth it should also be said that there ARE plenty of not so great MENTORS out there too. Some folks just do not have the ability or even the desire to teach.. they just want a "go for" because they are to lazy to wipe their own tails. As with any relationship it takes two to tango.

BUT.....

An good mentor IS an excellent thing to find and if you do find one..... do what ever it takes to keep that relationship strong.

Peace out.....
Thomas
Totally agree with you. Just because a person may be a whizz around the studio, doesn't necessarily mean he will be a great mentor. He may feel more at home with knobs and switches than with people. He may well have little or no patience as far as a newbie is concerned. You have to be people orientated as well as know your craft in order to be a good mentor.
Old 30th November 2010
  #147
Gear Nut
 

Don't think I'd be a good mentor. I hate having to repeat myself. And really do not suffer fools gladly. I have very little patience and like things to be done right, the first time, not the 5th.
Old 30th November 2010
  #148
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov View Post
The gearslutz bug has bitten me so I'd like to actually be PAID for
my addiction for knob twisting....[/url]

Thanks in advance for any responses,
Chris

P.S. This is even after reading MM's "diary"!
Its a really hard field to get into! I only got an in because it was winter, everyone was off sick at the studio and the studio owner (who didn't want to hire me) was away on a 2 month holiday in Africa.. I was hired through a series of accidents!

Thats how I lucked into my "teaboy / gopher trial period". That and my Father letting me slide on contributing any rent for 2 years..

At 22 I was on the older side of the studios usual gopher hire age range, but I think I was more 'aware' / socially tuned into things around me than a younger kid would be.

(real subtle thing like if folks started a bad argument, to slink off / pretend to have something to do and leave them to it (or go get help!) - not just stand there and gawp..)

The whole assistant / intern / gopher things is a real socio-economic / class privilege / employment law mess.

There is a lot about it that is unfair. plenty to moan about. Good to be in it - bad to be out of it if you cant get in.

IMHO there is no getting round the fact that if you are able to live "rent and food free'' (like at your parents) and are willing to 'do anything' (ie menial labour tasks, like cleaning) you have the best possible chance - without that combination of circumstances and 'positive' attitude - its going to be extremely uphill / nearly impossible to get a traditional, old fashioned, entry level studio job.

But things have changed and thats not the only way in - for example - if you buy a studio - you are in!
Old 30th November 2010
  #149
Here for the gear
 

Hi there!

Im a long time reader but this is my first post! Felt inclined to give MHO because I have dealt with a number of recording connections students. I think this is an excellent thread with tons of great advice!

Similar to what AcousticZoo said, whether or not recording connections will work out is almost entirely up to you. That can be good or bad. I have seen students do great things with it and students do nothing with it.

One thing I wanted to mention is that over the last few years I have been very excited to take interns coming out of certain engineering schools. One in particular is the Conservatory of Recording Arts. I think this school must now be giving there students the "wedge" speech (if anyone is familiar with that). Students at these schools are specifically taught how to learn real world applications of the trade once they get into a studio, and they are required to intern for a set amount of time before they can get their degree. In short, they go to school to learn how to learn, are now taught proper etiquette. They seem to have their heads screwed on right, and believe it or not can actually do things on their own! I don't need to hold there hand anymore while they wrap cables! -- A lot of big corporate guys make getting educational credit a requirement for internships. It's their way of getting legal 'free labor' in the U.S.. So a school like this in essence can help you get an internship.

The guys who PAY to be an apprentice seem to carry this attitude that they are doing the engineer/studio some huge service. Not to undervalue interns, often they are doing us a huge service. Infact they are absolutely essential to the studio. To make a distinction, there is a difference between paying for a piece of paper (a degree), and paying for knowledge. The former seems like a means to an end, which studios don't like to see.

I think if you read some of the advice from guys like Jules and AcousticZoo, and many others, you can get some fundamental learning principles and go intern somewhere and skip the whole school thing. I say this because even really great students have a rough time now days finding work. Its a rough business... I got in very similar to how Jules did. Pretty much one guy got terminally ill and another guy quit. The studio was desperate and hired the intern that was most willing to do work that legitimately helped the studio progress. There were 9 of us at the time, and it was super competitive. About 4 of them were recording connections students, and a few even had degrees. I had nothing but a good work ethic and some problem solving skills. I got the job.

Anywho, sorry for the long post. In short, I think either option is good, it all depends on you and your attitude. And I would read a lot about employment now days and the way things are going before you make a decision in which you are gonna spend a bunch of money.

CT
Old 30th November 2010
  #150
Here for the gear
 

The other thing I forgot to mention is that my mentor did the recording connection thing, and he has turned out to be a phenomenal engineer, and has been very successful. Again it's almost all up to you. I have also heard of people getting bad mentors though... I haven't experienced that so it's hard for me to comment on...
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